SWF vs TWF vs THF vs SnB

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

	Pro's	Con's
Single Weapon Fighting	+100% stat mod to damage +30% stacking attack speed Perfect Single Weapon Fighting Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Glancing Blows with certain weapons Perfect Two Handed Fighting with certain weapons	Only Rune Arms or Orbs
Two Weapon Fighting	80% base Off Hand Proc Chance Best base animation Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Some offhand weapon attributes affect mainhand Offhand can be used as a 'buff' weapon benefits from single weapon effects multiplication such as sneak attack	Requires twice the materials less base damage Half stat on offhand Doublestrike only affects mainhand Horrendous moving animation
Two Handed Fighting	50% stat mod to damage glancing blows additional damage from power attack Perfect Two Handed Fighting Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Longer Reach Glancing blows on cleaves	No off hand at all Base weapons may not start at *4 multiplier
Sword and Board	Added PRR (maybe MRR) Additional AC from shield 8% doublestrike glancing blows with certain weapons 20% chance to shield bash Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Perfect Two Handed Fighting with certain weapons	shield bashes limited to 1 per second less base damage

Discuss; may change OP
I apologize to the art department for including things like animations in cons...

[A-O]

For THF you forgot to mention twitching for ~20% aspd. And 20 melee power in next update.

For SWF you can mention Swashbukler for buckler offhand. With SB you can get 8% DS as well currently. Also, for SnB you have legendary shield mastery for +7% DS. (works for SB as well)

[A-O]

Can't edit posts for some reason. TWF has 80% offhand with GTWF.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Can't edit posts for some reason. TWF has 80% offhand with GTWF.

yes GTWF has 80% off hand, but base is 20, meaning GTWF gives you a bonus 60%

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

For THF you forgot to mention twitching for ~20% aspd. And 20 melee power in next update.

For SWF you can mention Swashbukler for buckler offhand. With SB you can get 8% DS as well currently. Also, for SnB you have legendary shield mastery for +7% DS. (works for SB as well)

only using base feats here, that anyone regardless of class and destiny gets

[A-O]

only using base feats here, that anyone regardless of class and destiny gets

Seems pretty pointless then? What use is it knowing what "base" every style gets when it doesn't matter in the end 'cause you've got different class bonuses affecting them differently?

[Grailhawk]

Two Weapon Fighting

Best base animation

That's debatable SWF is either the same speed or faster for auto attack, but is faster while moving and cleaving.

[Saekee]

TWF: Pros doubles single weapon effects
Some offhand weapon attributes affect mainhand
Offhand can be used as a 'buff' weapon

Cons
Half stat on offhand (unless unarmed monk)
Doublestrike only affects mainhand
demanding prerequisites
Offhand intended to be light (although penalty is not a big deal for larger weapons)

SWF: Epic vorpal threats doubled
Doublestrike hugely effective since stat is already doubled and speed is increased

[Scrabbler]

yes GTWF has 80% off hand, but base is 20, meaning GTWF gives you a bonus 60%

The GTWF feats give you 60%, but you already had 20% just by using the style, so 80% should be listed on the chart. Other entries of the chart include things like +50% str and glancing blows for THF, which are available to the THF style without having any feat.


PS. Something I'd add to the chart is a THF Con: other styles have 4x crit weapons, but THF only goes up to 3x.

[MonadRebelion]

	Pro's	Con's
Single Weapon Fighting	+100% stat mod to damage +30% stacking attack speed Perfect Single Weapon Fighting Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Glancing Blows with certain weapons Perfect Two Handed Fighting with certain weapons	Only Rune Arms or Orbs
Two Weapon Fighting	+60% base Off Hand Proc Chance Best base animation Perfect Two Weapon Fighting	Requires twice the materials less base damage
Two Handed Fighting	+50% stat mod to damage glancing blows additional damage from power attack Perfect Two Handed Fighting Perfect Two Weapon Fighting	No off hand at all
Sword and Board	Added PRR (maybe MRR) Additional AC from shield 8% doublestrike glancing blows with certain weapons 20% chance to shield bash Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Perfect Two Handed Fighting with certain weapons	shield bashes limited to 1 per second less base damage

Discuss; may change OP

So, this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but I'm still blown away at the fact that single weapon fighting gives you a 100% stat bonus while two-handed fighting gives only a 50% bonus. This is dumbfounding. What I would really like is for this game to as much like pnp dnd as possible. What I really don't like is the patchwork of mmo fixes to issues that could be better handled by sticking closer to the pnp game. If you think melees are being outclassed by casters, here is a simple thing you could do to support melees: allow enemy casters to cast spell turning. (There are a whole bunch of spells that will make casters think twice about what they are casting.) I'm going to be bold here and offer some unsolicited advice to the folks working on this game (sorry). The 3.5 rules evolved from a process of working out the problems of dnd for 30+ years. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the people who worked on dnd over these years were smart and hard working. (I have no doubt that the people who work on ddo are smart and hard working. However, I am confident they haven't been working on ddo for 30+ years.) The 3.5 rules, which are the result of all this hard work and intelligence, are generally regarded as the best rule set we've ever had for dnd. (I hear some forumite shouting something about pathfinder here. Of course, I will ignore that because it's irrelevant.) At any rate, the process through which the game was produced has given it something akin to an organic unity. That said, here is a principle I think you should follow: When there are problems in ddo with balance, variety, mechanics, etc., look first and primarily to the pnp rules to see what can be imported to fix things. I'm not saying 3.5 is perfect. I'm just saying the 3.5 solutions to the problems with ddo are most likely better than the solutions you'd get from spinning out your own solution, looking for inspiration from other mmo's, or crowd-sourcing the forumites.

[RedHost]

What I would really like is for this game to as much like pnp dnd as possible.

In general, this would be quite nice! It has gotten rather difficult to really recognize the D&D in DDO at times....

What I really don't like is the patchwork of mmo fixes to issues that could be better handled by sticking closer to the pnp game.

The 3.5 rules evolved from a process of working out the problems of dnd for 30+ years. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the people who worked on dnd over these years were smart and hard working. (I have no doubt that the people who work on ddo are smart and hard working. However, I am confident they haven't been working on ddo for 30+ years.) The 3.5 rules, which are the result of all this hard work and intelligence, are generally regarded as the best rule set we've ever had for dnd. (I hear some forumite shouting something about pathfinder here. Of course, I will ignore that because it's irrelevant.) At any rate, the process through which the game was produced has given it something akin to an organic unity.

And now you've lost me.... The basic rule set for 3rd Edition is the product of two and a half years, from Summer of '97 to 2000. The only thing that was really kept from AD&D (or Second Edition) after Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR was the franchise name and some iconic names. While it was a great way to get together with some friends and play D&D, it had quite a lot of systemic flaws and three years later D&D 3.5 Edition was released to deal with some of the more major ones. This idea of 'organic unity' and 30+ years of refining are not based in fact. It is more like 3 years of development and 3 years of refinement, designed by people who had made modules and support material for previous D&D iterations but never worked at the core rules design level.

As much as I enjoy the work of Monte Cook, Skip Williams, and all of the others who worked on creating the d20 System and core D&D 3rd Edition at Wizards of the Coast, they are just game designers. They are good at their job, but not to the level of mythical fan-worship that is sometimes applied to them....


Ultimately, D&D 3.5 is an extremely fun game that I have enjoyed for years! But it's rule system struggles on it's own. It does not stand up to trying to reinterpret it into a CRPG format well. That is why *none* of the 3rd Edition games have stuck to them without some very heavy adjustments. And at epic levels of play they really fall apart hard. I would love it if Turbine had stuck more to the 'feel' of the D&D rule set! Even if it is not the most optimal way to make an online game, DDO is an IP game. It will never attract the broadest of audiences because of that, and major deviations from the IP serves to alienate fans of it. But ultimately, adjustments are going to have to be made just to make it playable.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

TWF: Pros doubles single weapon effects
Cons
demanding prerequisites

SWF: Epic vorpal threats doubled
Doublestrike hugely effective since stat is already doubled and speed is increased

please elaborate on the first one

it requires 17 dex and 11 bab, THF requires 17 str and 11 bab, SWF requires 7 balance and 11 bab (as a cross class skill you get 7 balance at lvl 9 without skill tomes), SNB just has loose requirements, though if your not proficient with a shield one would say it has stricter requirements

PSWF

[Scrabbler]

PSWF
doublestrike is hugely effective on all four, a doublestrike (main or off) generates a second main hand attack allowing for your 80% off hand to proc again

That is not at all how doublestrike works. Overall, doublestrike gives only 50-60% final benefit to TWF characters. You have 100% chance for mainhand, 80% for an offhand, and maybe 10% for another mainhand (depending on what doublestrike item you use).

It would be pretty wild if your mainhand attack could doublestrike, which caused an extra offhand hit, which then got its own chance to doublestrike again...!

By the way, being less-beneficial to TWF was an intentional feature of Doublestrike back when it was first added, as part of Rogue Opportunist. That was a design choice that should be reconsidered now that Doublestrike is included in so many other features.

[MonadRebelion]

In general, this would be quite nice! It has gotten rather difficult to really recognize the D&D in DDO at times....




And now you've lost me.... The basic rule set for 3rd Edition is the product of two and a half years, from Summer of '97 to 2000. The only thing that was really kept from AD&D (or Second Edition) after Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR was the franchise name and some iconic names. While it was a great way to get together with some friends and play D&D, it had quite a lot of systemic flaws and three years later D&D 3.5 Edition was released to deal with some of the more major ones. This idea of 'organic unity' and 30+ years of refining are not based in fact. It is more like 3 years of development and 3 years of refinement, designed by people who had made modules and support material for previous D&D iterations but never worked at the core rules design level.

As much as I enjoy the work of Monte Cook, Skip Williams, and all of the others who worked on creating the d20 System and core D&D 3rd Edition at Wizards of the Coast, they are just game designers. They are good at their job, but not to the level of mythical fan-worship that is sometimes applied to them....


Ultimately, D&D 3.5 is an extremely fun game that I have enjoyed for years! But it's rule system struggles on it's own. It does not stand up to trying to reinterpret it into a CRPG format well. That is why *none* of the 3rd Edition games have stuck to them without some very heavy adjustments. And at epic levels of play they really fall apart hard. I would love it if Turbine had stuck more to the 'feel' of the D&D rule set! Even if it is not the most optimal way to make an online game, DDO is an IP game. It will never attract the broadest of audiences because of that, and major deviations from the IP serves to alienate fans of it. But ultimately, adjustments are going to have to be made just to make it playable.

I think you must not understand my view. I would think a quick look at the spell lists from the various editions make evident some of the ways the game has evolved from previous versions. I would have thought it was pretty easy to see how much of the rules of the various editions are just attempts to simplify and expand what was already in the previous editions. All I need for my claims about 3.5 to obtain is (1) that 3.5 is generally considered the best version of dnd, and (2) the people working on the various versions of the game are fundamentally trying to improve on previous versions of what is basically the same game. If you're really disagreeing with me, I am supposed to believe that the 3.5 rules were just thought up in a couple years by people who were perhaps just accidentally aware of dnd. I am not supposed to believe that these are people intimately familiar with dnd, nor that they are working out rules to make the game better. Since the conditions of disagreement strike me as obviously unacceptable, I have to conclude you just don't understand what I was getting at.

We at least seem to agree on this point, that 3.5 has problems, but, nonetheless, ddo would be better off if it stayed closer to the pnp game. Given this agreement, I suspect your apparent disagreement is more posturing than anything else. Since you're just posturing, this is all you're going to get from me.

[Comp.preacher]

	Pro's	Con's
Single Weapon Fighting	+100% stat mod to damage +30% stacking attack speed Perfect Single Weapon Fighting Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Glancing Blows with certain weapons Perfect Two Handed Fighting with certain weapons	Only Rune Arms or Orbs
Two Weapon Fighting	80% base Off Hand Proc Chance Best base animation Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Some offhand weapon attributes affect mainhand Offhand can be used as a 'buff' weapon	Requires twice the materials less base damage Half stat on offhandDoublestrike only affects mainhand
Two Handed Fighting	50% stat mod to damage glancing blows additional damage from power attack Perfect Two Handed Fighting Perfect Two Weapon Fighting	No off hand at all Base weapons may not start at *4 multiplier
Sword and Board	Added PRR (maybe MRR) Additional AC from shield 8% doublestrike glancing blows with certain weapons 20% chance to shield bash Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Perfect Two Handed Fighting with certain weapons	shield bashes limited to 1 per second less base damage

Discuss; may change OP

I'm glad you brought this up insanity. Basically no matter how you slice it single weapon fighting is better in every conceivable way to two handed fighting, gaining twice the increase in modifier damage that used to be signature to the style. In addition, hand and a half weapons can gain all the benefits of glancing blows, while attacking at a much higher rate. It's rather annoying that if I rolled up a pure dwarf fighter right now, I would be far better using a one handed dwarven waraxe with just nothing in the offhand then using a greataxe. It's also been stated here that we should assume glancing blows will be enabled while moving again, however as far as I'm aware no comment has been made as far as the animations go, so we cannot assume twitching will necessarily be in U23. At the very least, one should be limited to one style of fighting, as certain builds can obviously exploit mixing them.

In my mind, the real question here on the forums should be how we go about bringing balance between SWF and 2HF, although it seems like many people here don't understand how far behind 2hf actually is behind SWF.

[Hafeal]

We at least seem to agree on this point, that 3.5 has problems, but, nonetheless, ddo would be better off if it stayed closer to the pnp game. Given this agreement, I suspect your apparent disagreement is more posturing than anything else. Since you're just posturing, this is all you're going to get from me.

I think the DDO devs, when they can, try to stay true or at least close to 3.5 rules. Failing that, they try to live within the spirit of the rules.

As a practical matter, various 3.5 rules evolved to be impractical for the speed and dynamic of an MMO.

The ship asking DDO devs to stay 'true' to the 3.5 rules sailed long ago and there are literally thousands of posts on it since 2006, when players first complained.

[Saekee]

please elaborate on the first one

it requires 17 dex and 11 bab, THF requires 17 str and 11 bab, SWF requires 7 balance and 11 bab (as a cross class skill you get 7 balance at lvl 9 without skill tomes), SNB just has loose requirements, though if your not proficient with a shield one would say it has stricter requirements

PSWF
doublestrike is hugely effective on all four, a doublestrike (main or off) generates a second main hand attack allowing for your 80% off hand to proc again

TWF benefits from single weapon effects multiplication such as sneak attack damage and secondary weapon effects. This is why pure rogues should always go with Twf

[Eth]

TWF: Swinging animation while moving makes you want to quit the game and do something else.

[Dandonk]

TWF: Swinging animation while moving makes you want to quit the game and do something else.

So much this. I hadn't played TWF for a while when I TRed Jarlyn into a TWF warchanter.... ewww, is all I have to say. I cannot imagine how I didn't remember how awful that animation is. Must've blocked it to keep (what's left of ) my sanity.

[Synthetic]

Thf has a longer reach, generally higher base damage, double bonus from power attack, and the highest cleave damage due to glancing blows on cleave.