Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

[Thar]

So you want to nerf something because you can't have it. not nice.

[EllisDee37]

Basically yes, but not just because the game is bias. Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent, or they could make it so that any of the fest boost any style they just need to be consistent.

Perfect THF benefits SWF with a bastard sword or dwarven axe.

[Grailhawk]

So you want to nerf something because you can't have it. not nice.

No I want consistency especial when it comes to combat style.

[Grailhawk]

Perfect THF benefits SWF with a bastard sword or dwarven axe.

I'm ok with that up to a point (they should not be able to use both PSWF and PTHF at the same time) Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes have for a while been "bastard" THF weapons.

[EllisDee37]

I'm ok with that up to a point (they should not be able to use both PSWF and PTHF at the same time) Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes have for a while been "bastard" THF weapons.

Yes, but your point is that "Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent." That would not be consistent, because right now on live there is another Perfect feat that gives benefit to another style.

[Grailhawk]

Yes, but your point is that "Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent." That would not be consistent, because right now on live there is another Perfect feat that gives benefit to another style.

So the inconsistency is that TWF can not benefit from 2 Perfect feat and all other styles can either way its inconsistent. I prefer that they make things consistent by only allowing one per style but they can go the other way or leave it as is doesn't change the fact that things are inconsistent.

Another way to see the inconsistency is to see what styles can use which Perfect feat.

PSWF = SWF only
PTHF = THF or S&B
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

who can use what feat is inconsistent.

[Ykt]

It does require the first Single Weapon Fighting feat. There's no way to benefit from Perfect Single Weapon Fighting without it, since you wouldn't meet the requirement: "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..."

http://ddowiki.com/page/Single_Weapon_Fighting

Prerequisite: 2 ranks of Balance

While Single-Weapon Fighting, you gain +10% Combat Style bonus to attack speed. Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

This is the base SWF feat and it also mentions "While Single Weapon Fighting, ...".

It seems "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..." means "Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand."

Just like "Two Weapon Fighting" means "Fighting with two weapons or Handwraps" and "Two Handed Fighting" means "Fighting with a two handed weapon or a Dwarven Axe or a Bastard Sword".

[Mernom]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Single_Weapon_Fighting


This is the base SWF feat and it also mentions "While Single Weapon Fighting, ...".

It seems "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..." means "Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand."

Just like "Two Weapon Fighting" means "Fighting with two weapons or Handwraps" and "Two Handed Fighting" means "Fighting with a two handed weapon or a Dwarven Axe or a Bastard Sword".

"Two Handed Fighting" means "Fighting with a two handed weapon or a Dwarven Axe or a Bastard Sword"(while not fighting with 2 weapons).

[EllisDee37]

So the inconsistency is that TWF can not benefit from 2 Perfect feat and all other styles can either way its inconsistent. I prefer that they make things consistent by only allowing one per style but they can go the other way or leave it as is doesn't change the fact that things are inconsistent.

Another way to see the inconsistency is to see what styles can use which Perfect feat.

PSWF = SWF only
PTHF = THF or S&B
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

who can use what feat is inconsistent.

Actually, it's:

PSWF = SWF or S&B (swashbuckling bards using a buckler)
PTHF = THF, S&B or SWF (if SWFing with a bastard sword or dwarven axe)
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

All three can be used by multiple styles. Seems pretty consistent to me.

[dgtgtd]

Actually, it's:

PSWF = SWF or S&B (swashbuckling bards using a buckler)
PTHF = THF, S&B or SWF (if SWFing with a bastard sword or dwarven axe)
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

All three can be used by multiple styles. Seems pretty consistent to me.

The point being made, was that PTWF can be used by any fighting style, but those that TWF are only able to benefit from PTWF. This is the type of inconsistency that was being pointed out.

If those that TWF were somehow able to benefit from other styles, or if each "Perfect" style were limited to the fighting style it were named after, then it would be consistent.

[EllisDee37]

The point being made, was that PTWF can be used by any fighting style, but those that TWF are only able to benefit from PTWF. This is the type of inconsistency that was being pointed out.

If those that TWF were somehow able to benefit from other styles, or if each "Perfect" style were limited to the fighting style it were named after, then it would be consistent.

Dusting off my memory of this 17-month-old discussion...

My reaction to that ultra-specific inconsistency ranges between "meh" and "good." TWF is also the only style that lets you swing two weapons, so it's probably intentionally designed to be the only style that can't benefit from multiple "Perfect" feats.

[Grailhawk]

Dusting off my memory of this 17-month-old discussion...

My reaction to that ultra-specific inconsistency ranges between "meh" and "good." TWF is also the only style that lets you swing two weapons, so it's probably intentionally designed to be the only style that can't benefit from multiple "Perfect" feats.

The only way that read to me is, you think imbalance is fine and are fine with TWF being weeker/having less options then the other styles. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. Balance in opportunity and power should be a goal in a game like this.

[EllisDee37]

The only way that read to me is, you think imbalance is fine and are fine with TWF being weeker/having less options

...because it procs twice as many hits. If you think double the hits having the same power per hit as half the hits is "balanced", we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

You're also missing a pretty huge piece of the puzzle, in that other fighting styles don't get the full effect of PTWF. In fact, they only get a third of the effect. So in a very real sense, PTWF is stronger than two equivalent feats for TWF.

In other words, TWF gets two feats worth of power from PTWF. Imbalance! Nerf PTWF to only give 5% mainhand doublestrike and nothing else, because that's all the other styles get out of it. Balance!

Specifically, PTWF gives 5% doublestrike to other styles, but 15% doublestrike to TWF. (5% to mainhand, 10% to offhand.)

[Grailhawk]

...because it procs twice as many hits.

If you think double the hits having the same power per hit as half the hits is "balanced", we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

So you are saying you think TWF is double as good as the other styles?

If the style are not balanced that needs to be fixed also.

You know this but for most builds TWF is not double he hits, it's only 80 and those hits are for less damage ...

[EllisDee37]

So you are saying you think TWF is double as good as the other styles?

If the style are not balanced that needs to be fixed also.

You know this but for most builds TWF is not double he hits, it's only 80 and those hits are for less damage ...

I disagree with the premise that most TWF builds only get 80% offhand. And it's not less damage at all for tier 5 tempests.

I read your argument as exactly equivalent to calling for a nerf to sneak damage because TWF gets twice as many procs. Should sneak attacks only apply to mainhand weapons in the name of balance? Why or why not?

[Grailhawk]

I disagree with the premise that most TWF builds only get 80% offhand. And it's not less damage at all for tier 5 tempests.

I read your argument as exactly equivalent to calling for a nerf to sneak damage because TWF gets twice as many procs. Should sneak attacks only apply to mainhand weapons in the name of balance? Why or why not?

I don't have time right now for more then quick reply from my phone, but if sa on TWF build was unbalanced yes. Given how Rogue are not seam as the 100% undisputed dps champs I don't think it's an issue in the current game but math and videos could convince me it needs to be done.

If the pthf and pswf feasts worse then +7.5% dps increases then they need a bump if there more then those style have more opertunity to boost there dps then TWF they should not have more opertunity that's a kind of imbalance. It's why classes with only 2 trees should have gotten there third tree before class with three trees got class passes.