The Devils of Shavarath Adventure Pack

[Lanadazia]

Hello!
I haven't found any thread that would cover my problem, so here it is:

I just run 'A New Invasion' on Elite and got taken by surprise, that there is no longer a shrine next to the hole that leads to the endfight.
Also that portal, that connect the endfight with the entrance is gone. According to the wiki thats only on elite that way.
So.. why would you make elite even more difficult?
the hardest part about this quest is to find people that want to join you running it, not the quest itself.
the endfight is somewhat tough, but manageable. still my group wiped the first try and 3 of them left cause there was no portal
and they said they wouldnt 'run around in the quest an hour' to get back to the endfight.
even though i memorized the way it took me 10 minutes just to reach the endfight again.
personally i find this uncomfortable, but its not a reason, to not retry an endfight, more than ever since you've been in the quest for quite a while!

now to my point:

why would turbine make a quest-pack, that already is unpopular even more unattractive?
i like to run all the content, i like to get favor and i enjoy pretty much any quest and challenging content given.
i'm on argonessen, the server with the best lfm system (from what i've read in the forums so far the other servers dont have a great lfm going on)
you can actually run pretty much everything on argonessen with a pug, you dont need a channel. even epic elites and rare raids like abbot or master arti/LoB are done via LFM
but you barely see lfms for this quest pack anymore.

and things like the missing portal/shrine on a tough quest wont make it more popular than before!


another point is, why would this be missing on elite, the hardest setting?
why is there an extra shrine and a portal on normal and hard, that are way easier to complete?
whether you should treat a quest the same way with comfortable stuff (well shrines obviously dont count here, but the portal does)
or you should take it from every difficulty setting, instead of changing it on one difficulty only

its not like the quest has gotten more difficult due to the missing portal, its just annoying, illegitimate unnecessary.
basically this change just ruind a good hour of gaming time for me. i'm fine with failing a quest cause the party is not capable of it, or you just dont do it right
but i'm not fine with failing a quest due to leaving party members, because the quest is too uncomfortable on the highest difficulty setting
(and i'm not talking about tough fights, but stupidly long runs and therefore very long completion times without actually playing the game)

just put it back the way it was. no need to 'nerf' an unpopular quest-pack, so noone will ever run it!

[Thalone]

I'm 99% sure you're just blowing off steam after wiping, and you'll see you're being irrational once you've cooled off.

Almost every quest on a wipe requires you to run from the quest entrance to the point where you wiped. In fact, some quests are worse: Cursed Crypt will lock you out of the end fight after a certain point, so if you're unprepared for all the vampire Commands, there will be no way for you to complete. Most raids will have a lockout point which forbid reentry. That is much less forgiving than New Invasion.

There is also precedent for elite quests being harder than their hard/normal counterparts (aside from the obvious scaling of HPs and DCs). Acid Wit is missing a shrine on elite; the elite end fight of Small Problem is significantly more difficult than hard; for the longest time, Weapons Shipment had double scaling (more difficult enemies and more enemies).

Frankly, you answered your own question many times in your post. The shortcut/shrine are missing on elite for the challenge. Your group wiped: it was not up to the challenge you selected. Maybe if you'd gone in with different tactics the second time, you'd've succeeded (in which case my response would be, "Congratulations, you were up to elite without the extra shrine and no reentry."). I personally wiped the first time I ran it on elite (was not prepared for the air elemental), but since then I've run it on heroic elite without EDs for the fun and succeeded. With EDs, it's a cakewalk.

[Trillea]

Hello!
So.. why would you make elite even more difficult?
[/B]

Why would you NOT?

[Nayus]

Once upon a time, this pack was endgame and it was popular.

[Scrabbler]

another point is, why would this be missing on elite, the hardest setting?
why is there an extra shrine and a portal on normal and hard, that are way easier to complete?

In a number of quests they've removed shrines on higher difficulties; Acid Wit springs to mind.

They should never remove shrines based on difficulty; the monsters and traps are already stronger, and that's challenge enough. (They also shouldn't raise the number of monsters!) But some designers like to double-dip the difficulty settings.

[Trillea]

They should never remove shrines based on difficulty; the monsters and traps are already stronger, and that's challenge enough. (They also shouldn't raise the number of monsters!) But some designers like to double-dip the difficulty settings.

On Elite, it should be (and is) anything goes. Elite is not supposed to be the default until you have either the experience or the gear to handle it.

[Scrabbler]

On Elite, it should be (and is) anything goes.

"Anything goes" would be a really foolsih design principle.

Elite is not supposed to be the default until you have either the experience or the gear to handle it.

Yeah, experience gained from running Hard and Normal. That means stuff like shrines and number of monsters should be the same. Adding in whole new bosses or taking away helpful dungeon features is not a good idea for Elite.

If those changes make Elite more fun, they would also make Normal more fun.

[Lanadazia]

I'm 99% sure you're just blowing off steam after wiping, and you'll see you're being irrational once you've cooled off.

nope i was not blowing off steam cause i wiped, but i was blowing off steam cause i got upset my party broke up due to a missing quest-specific feature, that was available for years. i was just a little confused and at some point a wondering, why they change something without writing it into the patchnotes!
yes there are quests with a lockout or a long-run when you wiped. but since this quest can wipe easy with an unprepared or unexperienced party, the portal was an essential part of this quest.
i waited 2 hours to get 3 people together to run this and it failed cause of unexperienced players. both of them did the quest the first time. but what helps explaining an endfight? you somewhat need to see it yourself to understand.
got my completion the other day though


you obviously didnt really read my post though. i was talking about changes to quests, that makes them harder (what is ok in the first place), but if this is done to a quest-pack that is unpopular already this is just killing it = no good dev decision!
all actions they do should make content remain worthy to run and not make it pointless and a pain at once, cause that is why noone is really running shavarath anymore

Once upon a time, this pack was endgame and it was popular.

if they just made the tod sets more useful it still could be a very prominent pack!

[Seikojin]

There are shortcuts on elite that people neglect after the removed the super shortcut. Just got to find them.

[psykopeta]

end shrine and portal are random

sometimes u will get em, sometimes u wont

there's a shrine in the last floor tho

[TeacherSyn]

nope i was not blowing off steam cause i wiped, but i was blowing off steam cause i got upset my party broke up due to a missing quest-specific feature, that was available for years. i was just a little confused and at some point a wondering, why they change something without writing it into the patchnotes!
yes there are quests with a lockout or a long-run when you wiped. but since this quest can wipe easy with an unprepared or unexperienced party, the portal was an essential part of this quest.
i waited 2 hours to get 3 people together to run this and it failed cause of unexperienced players. both of them did the quest the first time. but what helps explaining an endfight? you somewhat need to see it yourself to understand.
got my completion the other day though


you obviously didnt really read my post though. i was talking about changes to quests, that makes them harder (what is ok in the first place), but if this is done to a quest-pack that is unpopular already this is just killing it = no good dev decision!
all actions they do should make content remain worthy to run and not make it pointless and a pain at once, cause that is why noone is really running shavarath anymore



if they just made the tod sets more useful it still could be a very prominent pack!

That end-fight, on any difficulty, requires specific strategy that, it seems, your party was not ready to do.

• Curse-removal is critical as the pit fiend slaps you with a anti-healing curse. Bring lots of curse removal potions/scrolls.
• The pit fiend boss has a very dangerous poison attack that will kill you with 1000 pts of CON damage if untreated. Bring poison neutralization abilities.
• You must stick-and-move thorughout to avoid the traps; each platform is trapped, cannot be disarmed, and causes incredibile damage on Elite.
• Anything--other players, summons, even soulstones--will cause the traps to activate if they are resting on a platform.
• A small attack force is preferable to a large one.
• On Elite, the boss sometimes uses a chain-binding attack, making ranged attack a better option.
• Find the shrine on the floor before going in. As others noted, it does NOT always appear by the final hole to the boss.

DDO Wiki is your friend. You're complaining about a quest whose design has been around for years and isn't broken, simply challenging. Just read up before entering and heed to what other (successful) players have learned about it. HULK SMASH is not a strategy in most quests.

[Lanadazia]

That end-fight, on any difficulty, requires specific strategy that, it seems, your party was not ready to do.

• Curse-removal is critical as the pit fiend slaps you with a anti-healing curse. Bring lots of curse removal potions/scrolls.
• The pit fiend boss has a very dangerous poison attack that will kill you with 1000 pts of CON damage if untreated. Bring poison neutralization abilities.
• You must stick-and-move thorughout to avoid the traps; each platform is trapped, cannot be disarmed, and causes incredibile damage on Elite.
• Anything--other players, summons, even soulstones--will cause the traps to activate if they are resting on a platform.
• A small attack force is preferable to a large one.
• On Elite, the boss sometimes uses a chain-binding attack, making ranged attack a better option.
• Find the shrine on the floor before going in. As others noted, it does NOT always appear by the final hole to the boss.

DDO Wiki is your friend. You're complaining about a quest whose design has been around for years and isn't broken, simply challenging. Just read up before entering and heed to what other (successful) players have learned about it. HULK SMASH is not a strategy in most quests.

well you obviously did not read my post attentively, just like the first guy i was responding to!
i really dislike your educational type of writing. its demoting.
i do know this quest pack and i've run it for years (as i wrote earlier), no need to state the obvious
yes this content is around for years now, but i've >> never << seen the shrine/portal NOT to spawn in about 30 runs!

as i wrote in the post you quoted: i explained the endfight in detail, but since i had 1st timers with me, it went wrong. and we had no possibility to try again (well or they left, cause of a missing quest-feature)
its just not enough to explain this traps, when you do not know how it looks. you know what i mean? you have to see it with your own eyes.
and since there was no 2nd try it left 3 players displeased.
thats it.
and as i wrote earlier (guess i have to say that each time, since noone is reading my posts..) i'm fine with wiping, i'm fine with restarting a quest cause you were illprepared (but we werent), but i'm not fine with a quest being unreliable due to unnecessary randomness!


first READ then respond. thanks!
or just don't reply if you do not wanna read what someone wrote. no help at all to post a list what to do, if someone wrote earlier he would know what to do.
its like telling your secretary how to write an email. just do not take others for a fool, its degrading.

- lana

[TeacherSyn]

well you obviously did not read my post attentively, just like the first guy i was responding to!
i really dislike your educational type of writing. its demoting.
i do know this quest pack and i've run it for years (as i wrote earlier), no need to state the obvious
yes this content is around for years now, but i've >> never << seen the shrine/portal NOT to spawn in about 30 runs!

as i wrote in the post you quoted: i explained the endfight in detail, but since i had 1st timers with me, it went wrong. and we had no possibility to try again (well or they left, cause of a missing quest-feature)
its just not enough to explain this traps, when you do not know how it looks. you know what i mean? you have to see it with your own eyes.
and since there was no 2nd try it left 3 players displeased.
thats it.
and as i wrote earlier (guess i have to say that each time, since noone is reading my posts..) i'm fine with wiping, i'm fine with restarting a quest cause you were illprepared (but we werent), but i'm not fine with a quest being unreliable due to unnecessary randomness!


first READ then respond. thanks!
or just don't reply if you do not wanna read what someone wrote. no help at all to post a list what to do, if someone wrote earlier he would know what to do.
its like telling your secretary how to write an email. just do not take others for a fool, its degrading.

- lana

I did fully read your message.

Shavarath is punishing for the ill-prepared and impatient. Your description suggests your party was both. That quest, in particular, is challenging for even experienced vets. And the game does like to shake your complacency, as it did by not putting that shrine where you expected.

Try again. It's a game, not a life event.

[FranOhmsford]

I did fully read your message.

Shavarath is punishing for the ill-prepared and impatient. Your description suggests your party was both. That quest, in particular, is challenging for even experienced vets. And the game does like to shake your complacency, as it did by not putting that shrine where you expected.

Try again. It's a game, not a life event.

The OP DID try again {and completed} as shown in his/her later posts.

The issue here is that the two newbies {to said content} who joined the OP are the ones who are hurt by this!
The OP is clearly capable of completing this quest and just needed a GROUP to do so - Not everyone wants to Solo the entire game!

Those two newbies however will find it much harder to get a group together than the OP as they now know it's a requirement!


Shavarath is no longer End-Game Content and End-Game situations should be toned down or removed to make it more viable for levellers.
Otherwise it ends up like Restless Isles and Threnal - Which were originally envisioned as End-Game content but never toned down once the Cap went up!


When and IF these packs are ever Epicced/Placed back at End-Game the Devs can go all out with Balanced Group Requirements to promote Grouping amongst the Elite!
However the Standard Heroic Difficulties should be aimed at being viable for EVERYONE! Incl. Newbies...Who are now used to running Elites elsewhere and don't like when the game suddenly throws a Curveball at them!


For Restless Isles this means:
Significantly reducing the Open Lock DCs in the Slayer Zone.
Significantly reducing the Reflex Requirement in the Ghola-Fan Gauntlet.
Putting the Second Beholder back into Slavers of the Shrieking Mines {An uncompletable Optional is just ludicrous!}.
AND
Significantly upping the Drop rates of the Named Loot

Also: Make the Twilight Forge Pre-Raid a Once and Done allowing us to keep trying Titan without repeating the Pre-Raid as Unlike VoN or ADQ we don't have an Epic Version!

For Threnal this means:
Turning the Wilderness into a Proper Slayer Zone
Adding the Giant Caves to the Adventure Compendium as House P 1/2/4/6 Favour {Also this will mean House P 400 Favour reward may be achievable and should be added in}.
AND
Fixing the NPCs so they don't reset the chain on People!

For Shavarath this means:
Upgrading the Base Levels of the Flags to 20 and upping the Base XP to Epic Levels.
Placing an NPC at the Start of New Invasion who will Teleport Re-entering Players back to the End Fight {Once through the maze should be enough BUT I'm not for removing the Re-entry requirement entirely!}.
Upgrading the Named Loot.
AND
Significantly upping the drop rates of Boots ingredients on Elite.

[Lanadazia]

The OP DID try again {and completed} as shown in his/her later posts.

The issue here is that the two newbies {to said content} who joined the OP are the ones who are hurt by this!
The OP is clearly capable of completing this quest and just needed a GROUP to do so - Not everyone wants to Solo the entire game!

exactly. thank you, i was starting to wonder if my english is too bad to describe my situation.

i wrote it 2 times already, and i'm gonna repeat it again. i was not posting this because i was mad about a wipe.
i was mad cause this situation left the new players and me unsatisfied.

and thanks for stating, that not everyone is soloing.
if i'm not with my static group or some guildies i'd rather join a PUG instead of soloing quests at level (favor runs not included, i do those solo and its boring)
not because i'm not capable of it, but it is more fun to play with other players together, no matter if i miss out on 10% cause someone died or it takes longer.

@ spence:
we weren't illprepared. i've handed out remove curse potions, cause one wasn't carrying some.
neither were we impatient, since we went somewhat slow, cause the 2 other guys didn't know the quest and wanted to explore a little.

well, maybe the game is shaking my complacency, but hopefully my posts here are shaking yours!
you still sneer at me snootily, what isn't a nice way to treat someone.

[FranOhmsford]

exactly. thank you, i was starting to wonder if my english is too bad to describe my situation.


well, maybe the game is shaking my complacency, but hopefully my posts here are shaking yours!
you still sneer at me snootily, what isn't a nice way to treat someone.

Uh - You might want to re-edit your post so people don't think these last two lines are aimed at me - Because I've done no such thing!

[Lanadazia]

Uh - You might want to re-edit your post so people don't think these last two lines are aimed at me - Because I've done no such thing!

done. sorry for any confusion occured