Paladin becoming the master (melee) class

[A-O]

1) True on the Evasion build in the current game. It doesn't look like an obtainable amount of PRR and MRR will high enough to out weigh dodge and evasion with the saves on this build even in the proposed changes.
2) It will be interesting if SWF has higher DPS after U23 than THF. With the "moving" glancing blows, I think THF will be better.
3) What efeats would you chose while staying focused on dps? My thoughts are more glancing damage and a higher chance for double strikes....

You are probably right about THF, with the added 20 melee power (roughly 15% dmg) and glancings while twitching THF should come out slightly ahead.

Glancing blow damage is negligible at best for DPS so I'd pick something that's actually useful instead, like epic reflexes or combat archery for when you're ranged, or even elusive target for another 5% dr.

[A-O]

It still doesn't appeal to me enough to play it, but if you say it will encourage people to finally play the class then I suppose the mission of buffing paladins is accomplished? Calling it a "master melee class" is an exaggeration, if anything we'll have to see how the defense changes work in practice, as well as melee power.

"Master melee class" in the sense that a 15 paladin split will net the highest melee damage along with the highest melee survivability. I'd call that a master class.

[Zachski]

as mentioned in the above posts, the key difference is multiplier vs threat range. The monk ninja capstone and kensei Tier 5 only affect range. SB gets both as do the two tier 5 staff buffs (Henshin, Acrobat).
I think the Kensei and ninja capstones should increase the multiplier.

Right now a build with three levels of bard can wield a kama more powerfully than a capstoned ninja.

Considering Bard can't even multiclass with Monk and thus has to take kama as a feat, that's saying something.

(I always did find it strange that Bard, a profession that required a lot of discipline in real life to be able to master music and memorize tales and poems, isn't even allowed to be lawful in D&D. I think Pathfinder 'fixed' this little oddity.)

So I'm guessing that after the update, there will still be little reason to take Paladin beyond level 15?

[goodspeed]

Zeal's +10% Double strike is a tough choice to give up on melee
Holy Sword +1 Crit Multiplier and Extended Critical Range is also tough choice to give up.

For solo and high survivability two other spells rate high on my Deathward and Cure Serious Wounds (More so with SP regeneration) and to get the 3rd and 4th Spell Slot you need 19 and 20 Levels.

I think as a community we can all agree that the current Holy Sword spell has been out-of-date for a long time. I'm glad to see making this a weapon buff instead of a stand alone.

But to get 1 of these spells you need 14 levels, to get 2 spells you need 15 Levels.

The next thing I would like to point out is that with the next update is going to be full of undead and it does not matter how big the Crit range or Crit multiplier if you cannot bypass the Fortification.

While these changes look to be the right direction, it is the Defensive changes that I look forward to the most. it will be nice to see a melee be able to stand and take the hits from multiple targets.

Can't you? I see a big number above a skelly all the time with multiple fort reductions. Of course im sure its broke but for now it's there.

Then again for that very reason the content could fail. I mean if the undead really act like undead then its always a melee's most annoyance. Meanwhile the fire savent nukes everything. They had better make some amazing loot and make it hard to get for that place to take off.

[SealedInSong]

Edit: found it in the "Armor up" thread. Awesome update to the spell that's long overdue...just difficult to find in a thread about armor!

[Xenaphon]

With addition of MRR, why would pally not go pure? Improvement to Armor and Shield with additional DPS makes pure Paladin enticing to say the least.

I think you either go couple of levels to get divine grace or go pure to get all the goodies.

I am looking forward to building one.

[mrunlimited]

So I have been working on a few things on lamia in the past couple days testing out the new pally changes. So far I have done a 2hander build and a twf build pure pally. Surprisingly enough, I found the twf with 2khopeshes does massive amounts of dps as compared to thf. You still kill trash a little quicker on ee as thf build but bosses go down so much faster with the twf khopesh build. I was running in divine crusader and even with consecrate, strike down and the 2 new pally cleaves, in EE LOD I would kill a red named faster than the trash around it. Two problems I have encountered thus far in testing these builds, a) there is an MRR bug that reduces healing coming in which I think may be causing the problem I am having with running out of spell power quickly. b) I have no crowd control and on ee several mobs on you even with the new armor changes is a little more than I can heal through currently at times.

To this end I still need to test out a sword and board and a single weapon fighting build. Im waiting on the vanguard tree to go live on lamia before doing s&b though. Im thinking about possibly trying 2 s&b builds, one pure and one 15 pally/5 wiz. Getting displacement alongside of the ek enhancements could have some nice synergy as well as additional spell points. With ek enhancements you can still make this a heavy armor build. Im guessing that adding a shield will help survivability alot.

Overall though the changes are fun and actually pretty dang good. I still feel like my evasion swashbuckler is a little more powerful but not by much.

[giftie]

With addition of MRR, why would pally not go pure? Improvement to Armor and Shield with additional DPS makes pure Paladin enticing to say the least.

I was thinking the same thing myself. If you're already Paladin 15, what's going to add more value than 4d6 light, 10 melee power, 4 level 4 spells, and so on. Well, okay, 5 Wiz if you're BF, but for fleshies - especially dragonmarked Elves - pure class looks very tempting.

Surprisingly enough, I found the twf with 2khopeshes does massive amounts of dps as compared to thf.

Weird... any idea why? I'd have thought TF procs, if that was the case, would favour TWF against trash rather than red-names. Is it the light and holy procs?

[Seikojin]

You do know fighter and Barb are getting love later, right?

[Chimeran1]

Overall though the changes are fun and actually pretty dang good. I still feel like my evasion swashbuckler is a little more powerful but not by much.

Swashbuckler is king melee dps ATM.
I just TR'ed out of my Bladeforged Swashbuckler into Paladin and was like ***.. Only build I ever did that came close to my BF Swash was a BF Cetus build using dual Khopesh and Grand Master of forms.
Swashbuckler such a great class, shame they are going to Bork it out of existence with the shield feat change.
I regret TR'ing out of it, but once I hit 28 I get bored very quickly.

[Chimeran1]

So any word about SWF being allowed to work with shields for Paladin in the same way Swashbucklers get to use it with Bucklers?

[Scrabbler]

So any word about SWF being allowed to work with shields for Paladin in the same way Swashbucklers get to use it with Bucklers?

The word on that was out months ago.

Here's the word.

"No"

As it happens, Paladins get +20% attack speed while holding a shield, which comes close to the +30% granted by GSWF; and without spending feats. (Their Vanguard shield-DPS tree still has some huge flaws, though)