We Need Working Aggro Management Tools

[Zaloric]

The changes to fighter and paladin won't change anything unless we get working aggro management tools. Right now, intimidate and diplomacy don't cut it. They need significant re-tooling if pure tanks are going to have a place outside of a few select raids. Unless tanks can reliably pick up aggro, they're just hurting their DPS by taking top-tier tanking enhancements.

My suggestion: double or triple intimidate's range, increase its effect, and make it instant-cast. When a big, armored tank walks into a room, he should get the mobs' attention.

[Scrabbler]

Yes, something like this is really needed for "Defender" characters to fit well into groups. It's a complicated area to work on, though. Some things I'd strongly consider:

• All players gain a toggle for Aggro and Unaggro mode. In Aggro mode, any effect which reduces your hate generation is suppressed. In Unaggro mode, effects which increase hate are suppressed. Those modes even override things like equipping an Incite weapon. One important reason for these toggles is so that two Defender builds can work together in a party and decide which one will be tanking right now.
  
  
• When you click Intimidate / Diplomacy, for 90 seconds you get an effect which causes monsters spotting your group to prefer / aver targeting you over other people; even if the enemy only sees one player at first. For example, if I Intimidate and then the Wizard goes in front of me and the monster starts chasing him, when it gets close enough to see me it'll switch to me (unless the Wizard has already done some damage).
  
  
• When you target a monster you can see a "Hate" number next to the hitpoints display. If you have aggro, then the number is positive and shows the difference between your hate and the second-place hate. If you don't, the number is the difference between your hate and first place (meaning a negative).

However, working on aggro mechanics might not be enough. They also might have to play with AOE healing and so on (an effect that makes it less helpful to focus all enemies on one guy)

[Seikojin]

I am a little surprised that points in those trees don't add to hate passively.

[JamnJD]

I just wanted to chime in to say that we need working aggro. Period. Because it seems just outright broken right now.

Fighter and Blue Bar (wizzie or divine) walk into a room filled with mobs. Mobs dart straight for Blue Bar. Blue Bar does nothing. Fighter cleaves/great cleaves mass of mobs as they run by. Mobs continue heading for Blue Bar. No matter how much Fighter smacks the mobs, Fighter can't seem to get the aggro off the Blue Bar.

Ummm, helloooooooooo!

Am I the only one noticing this? Seems broken to me.

If it were working, like before the last patch or update (can't remember when it broke) then I'd say I agree with the OP

...J

[snoopy]

Give the mob credit. Whats more dangerous. A tank thats gonna turtle up and do ok dps or a blue bar thats gonna lay waste within seconds. Dont you target mob casters and divines quickly too.

[AbyssalMage]

Its been fixed (broken) sense U15 (I think this was the intimidation "fix"). Prior to this, tanks could actually be "tanky" but Turbine considered this OP. Now consider that they have worked on NPC AI multiple times and have further made NPC's make a direct path to "blue bars" which tells me this is all WAI. Also makes playing a caster in groups "interesting" for you and your group depending on how you can handle the agro.

[Oxarhamar]

I just wanted to chime in to say that we need working aggro. Period. Because it seems just outright broken right now.

Fighter and Blue Bar (wizzie or divine) walk into a room filled with mobs. Mobs dart straight for Blue Bar. Blue Bar does nothing. Fighter cleaves/great cleaves mass of mobs as they run by. Mobs continue heading for Blue Bar. No matter how much Fighter smacks the mobs, Fighter can't seem to get the aggro off the Blue Bar.

Ummm, helloooooooooo!

Am I the only one noticing this? Seems broken to me.

If it were working, like before the last patch or update (can't remember when it broke) then I'd say I agree with the OP

...J

same problem with the new ranged Argo changes

Shoot one mob with one arrow and all his buddy come charging past the Melee. Melee can cleave away the mobs just ignore them.

Though most of the forum loves this as a nerf to ranged.

Still it is not working correctly a mob agroed on ranged because, his buddy was shot should change agro to a melee who directly damages them plain and simple.

[RedHost]

Its been fixed (broken) sense U15 (I think this was the intimidation "fix"). Prior to this, tanks could actually be "tanky" but Turbine considered this OP. Now consider that they have worked on NPC AI multiple times and have further made NPC's make a direct path to "blue bars" which tells me this is all WAI. Also makes playing a caster in groups "interesting" for you and your group depending on how you can handle the agro.

If you mean the days of "I just hit Intimidate and Shield Blocked, so everyone has to attack me!", that was fixed quite a long time before U14. It was a terrible system that needed to go the way of SWG.

The current 'hate' system is not great. But they are literally building upon years and years of different started and halted systems of agro management with very inconsistent increases / penalties. At this point it is really going to take a ground-up redesign to fix anything, and DDO does not have the staff needed for something like that any more. What you see is what you've got, so best get used to optimizing for it.

[blerkington]

same problem with the new ranged Argo changes

Shoot one mob with one arrow and all his buddy come charging past the Melee. Melee can cleave away the mobs just ignore them.

Though most of the forum loves this as a nerf to ranged.

Still it is not working correctly a mob agroed on ranged because, his buddy was shot should change agro to a melee who directly damages them plain and simple.

Hi,

The changes to aggro haven't worked out well for assassins, that's for sure.

I hope they can fix that soon because it sounds quite dispiriting for people who play them. Kind of a kick while the PRE is already down now that swashbucklers are the new kings of instakilling, and so much more else besides.

I don't think the new AI really much worse for ranged, because a good ranged player can adapt his or her playstyle and still be effective.

The problem you described occurs, I suspect, because aggro isn't being reset from second to second. That seems to take place at longer intervals instead.

What it looks like is happening is the ranged player picks up initial aggro of one or more mobs, then it is a few seconds before they recheck their hate list and possibly choose a new target, such as a melee who has been doing more damage.

I'd guess this only occurs at intervals of every few seconds to reduce the amount of AI calculation and network traffic. In some cases the monster may be dead before its aggro changes back to the character damaging it the most.

What we are seeing for ranged players is now we can't just stand back and kill members of large groups one by one while the victim's friends stand there and do nothing. That was pretty cheesy and did need to change to add a little more challenge.

Thanks.

[Oxarhamar]

Hi,

The changes to aggro haven't worked out well for assassins, that's for sure.

I hope they can fix that soon because it sounds quite dispiriting for people who play them. Kind of a kick while the PRE is already down now that swashbucklers are the new kings of instakilling, and so much more else besides.

I don't think the new AI really much worse for ranged, because a good ranged player can adapt his or her playstyle and still be effective.

The problem you described occurs, I suspect, because aggro isn't being reset from second to second. That seems to take place at longer intervals instead.

What it looks like is happening is the ranged player picks up initial aggro of one or more mobs, then it is a few seconds before they recheck their hate list and possibly choose a new target, such as a melee who has been doing more damage.

I'd guess this only occurs at intervals of every few seconds to reduce the amount of AI calculation and network traffic. In some cases the monster may be dead before its aggro changes back to the character damaging it the most.

What we are seeing for ranged players is now we can't just stand back and kill members of large groups one by one while the victim's friends stand there and do nothing. That was pretty cheesy and did need to change to add a little more challenge.

Thanks.

I don't care about picking up the agro of an entire dungeon because, I shot one baddie.

What I care about is the Baddies ignoring the Melees damage even if I only fire 1 single shot and damage no other mobs they continue to ignore the melee until some 10-20% of there health has been chipped away.

Your right it was lazy to pick mobs of 1 by 1 and I never liked that always drew as many as I could into IPS lineup but,


My main problem is I don't like hearing the melee whine that I am kiting because, everything runs past them after 1 shot. (if I was Melee I'd just ignore the stuff chasing the ranged and find my own trash but, this is not my experience in game) I get the Melees that chase my trash yelling in mic "let me stun it" etc...

It makes as much sence for the mobs to ignore being cleaved as it does for them to ignore their buddy being shot from range. Bottom line Agro is broken all around the board. Hate Gen and reduction items no longer have any value because. mobs ignore them for the new agro mechanics.

[THOTHdha]

The current 'hate' system is not great. But they are literally building upon years and years of different started and halted systems of agro management with very inconsistent increases / penalties. At this point it is really going to take a ground-up redesign to fix anything, and DDO does not have the staff needed for something like that any more. What you see is what you've got, so best get used to optimizing for it.

Bottom line Agro is broken all around the board. Hate Gen and reduction items no longer have any value because. mobs ignore them for the new agro mechanics.

If you already know where the break is, and that it is not being addressed nor has much chance to be, then it seems kind of silly to continue worrying about it.

[Oxarhamar]

If you already know where the break is, and that it is not being addressed nor has much chance to be, then it seems kind of silly to continue worrying about it.

the whole agro/hate system needs a revamp.

seams like they never changed it and instead just piled on different systems overtop

[blerkington]

I don't care about picking up the agro of an entire dungeon because, I shot one baddie.

What I care about is the Baddies ignoring the Melees damage even if I only fire 1 single shot and damage no other mobs they continue to ignore the melee until some 10-20% of there health has been chipped away.

Your right it was lazy to pick mobs of 1 by 1 and I never liked that always drew as many as I could into IPS lineup but,


My main problem is I don't like hearing the melee whine that I am kiting because, everything runs past them after 1 shot. (if I was Melee I'd just ignore the stuff chasing the ranged and find my own trash but, this is not my experience in game) I get the Melees that chase my trash yelling in mic "let me stun it" etc...

It makes as much sence for the mobs to ignore being cleaved as it does for them to ignore their buddy being shot from range. Bottom line Agro is broken all around the board. Hate Gen and reduction items no longer have any value because. mobs ignore them for the new agro mechanics.

Hi,

You will see the melee recover aggro if they get more than a few seconds to do it. Often things die so fast you they don't get a chance.

It does feel like the mobs are checking aggro less frequently than they used to, and maybe this stems from AI changes which attempt to keep lag down. Just a guess.

Thanks.

[THOTHdha]

the whole agro/hate system needs a revamp.

seams like they never changed it and instead just piled on different systems overtop

In the best of all possible implementations, you would be correct. Unfortunately, we have to deal in reality. And the reality is that DDO has had it's Anauroch expansion pushed back to next year and massively scaled back on development because Turbine can not justify the costs of it. So half-working systems kind of become "learn to live with it".

[Oxarhamar]

In the best of all possible implementations, you would be correct. Unfortunately, we have to deal in reality. And the reality is that DDO has had it's Anauroch expansion pushed back to next year and massively scaled back on development because Turbine can not justify the costs of it. So half-working systems kind of become "learn to live with it".

we already have a host of things that are broken nothing wrong with identifying them at least and acknowledging them maybe some day they get touched.

[TaylorNast]

If you are relying on Intimidate to pull and maintain your aggro, you are doing it wrong. Build up your base threat generation through Enhancements, Unyielding Sentinel, and gear. My pally has terribad DPS, yet never has any trouble getting and maintaining aggro quick and consistantly.

Intimidate should only -need- to be used in specific situations, like when dragon aggro resets during the Fire Peak transitions and such.

[ReaperAlexEU]

i think agro is calculated every 6 seconds, so the mobs running through a cleave will stay just so long as it's that long between agro checks.

for me one of the biggest issues is deception/bluff effects. i like they way they can spin a mob round, but that all falls apart when the mob wasn't looking at you in the first place!

if they changed the effect to make the mob face away from the player that procced it (as opposed to do a 180 as it is now) then a tank wouldnt look like they are losing agro when it's just a deception proc

at the moment when it's just a few people beating on a mob i'll place myself at 90 deg to them, not 180. that way if deception does proc the mob will start swinging at thin air and not the players on the other side to me. this of course does not help in large groups or with a cleaving mob

[Dorian]

Can we revert back to the old way that Intim and Dip worked?

Was it really "over-powered" and needed to be changed?

This would be an easy fix.

[nokowi]

Yes, something like this is really needed for "Defender" characters to fit well into groups. It's a complicated area to work on, though. Some things I'd strongly consider:

• All players gain a toggle for Aggro and Unaggro mode. In Aggro mode, any effect which reduces your hate generation is suppressed. In Unaggro mode, effects which increase hate are suppressed. Those modes even override things like equipping an Incite weapon. One important reason for these toggles is so that two Defender builds can work together in a party and decide which one will be tanking right now.
  
  
• When you click Intimidate / Diplomacy, for 90 seconds you get an effect which causes monsters spotting your group to prefer / aver targeting you over other people; even if the enemy only sees one player at first. For example, if I Intimidate and then the Wizard goes in front of me and the monster starts chasing him, when it gets close enough to see me it'll switch to me (unless the Wizard has already done some damage).
  
  
• When you target a monster you can see a "Hate" number next to the hitpoints display. If you have aggro, then the number is positive and shows the difference between your hate and the second-place hate. If you don't, the number is the difference between your hate and first place (meaning a negative).

However, working on aggro mechanics might not be enough. They also might have to play with AOE healing and so on (an effect that makes it less helpful to focus all enemies on one guy)

Toggle for aggro/unaggro +1!

I tend to have 80% threat reduction, which means every time I go into a raid and the leader asks
1. who can tank xxx
2. who can kite xxx
I can never serve these roles... If I could turn off aggro reduction, I could contribute much more to raids.

[Chimeran1]

The changes to fighter and paladin won't change anything unless we get working aggro management tools. Right now, intimidate and diplomacy don't cut it. They need significant re-tooling if pure tanks are going to have a place outside of a few select raids. Unless tanks can reliably pick up aggro, they're just hurting their DPS by taking top-tier tanking enhancements.

My suggestion: double or triple intimidate's range, increase its effect, and make it instant-cast. When a big, armored tank walks into a room, he should get the mobs' attention.

Oh?
You must not be Bladeforged cause I've never had a problem pulling or holding aggro.
If you want to be a tank, build a tank.
If you build it.... They will come.

Threat items
Max intimidate
Threat stance
Bladeforge 100% threat boost clickie......
20% damage boost clickie....

Tanks in raids need 1-2 minutes to build threat, good players know this, good tanks are built to tank.
12 fighter 6 paladin 2 rogue Bladeforged tank build.