Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[Scrabbler]

Sev~ explicitly said that any source of prr currently in the game would give mrr too, including enhancements, ED's, past lives, gear etc

That raises the question of why PRR and MRR are even different numbers. If every character has the same PRR and MRR, why bother differentiating??

I suppose the longer-range answer will be that they'll introduce items or augments that provide only one or the other, so players have more things to farm for. In that case they could still invent a combined name like "DRR" which describes both.

[PermaBanned]

Sev~ explicitly said that any source of prr currently in the game would give mrr too, including enhancements, ED's, past lives, gear etc

That raises the question of why PRR and MRR are even different numbers. If every character has the same PRR and MRR, why bother differentiating??

I think lyrecono is giving some exaggeratedly misleading info there. See below:

Magical Resist Rating
This new attribute is the magical equivalent of PRR. It can be increased by wearing armor, gearing up Sheltering effects, and picking certain enhancements.

Notice Sev~ only states armor, Sheltering effects and certain enhancements - this not at all the same as saying every enhancement, and says nothing about Pastlife or Epic Destiny sources of PRR also giving MRR. If Sev~ went on later to include those other sources, please post a link as I couldn't find where it happened. Furthermore:

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by armor
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 2 + (BAB / 2.0) )
Medium Armor: 20 PRR, 20 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 4 + (BAB / 1.5) )
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6 + BAB )

On the surface this looks as though armor (by type) will grant an equal base amount to both PRR & MRR, but notice it only states PRR will get a further bonus from BaB - I suppose it's possible MRR will as well, but it's not currently stated as such. Lastly:

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by sheilds
Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.
Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

While all shields grant equal parts of PRR and MRR, note that the MRR contribution from Large and Tower shields conditionally doubles vs Magical attacks that involve Reflex saves.

Near as I can tell, there will likely be quite a bit of variance between PRR & MRR values for most builds.

[lyrecono]

That raises the question of why PRR and MRR are even different numbers. If every character has the same PRR and MRR, why bother differentiating??

I suppose the longer-range answer will be that they'll introduce items or augments that provide only one or the other, so players have more things to farm for. In that case they could still invent a combined name like "DRR" which describes both.

He stated that different sources would come in the future yes, items giving prr or mrr only would come at one point
from Sev~
Magical Resistance Rating and Loot
Magical Resistance Rating will appear on existing and future items with the Sheltering effect. All items with the Sheltering effect will give an amount of MRR equal to the PRR of that effect. Note that armor type will still limit the amount of MRR you can have. In the future items may offer additional sources of PRR and/or MRR in addition to sheltering effects.

Also when we did some calculations in that thread, we included pastlives, enhancments and ed'sAlso BAB, Sev~ never corrected those calculations, as he did correct other stuff in that thread.
Since the shield multiplication is not a source but a mechanic i didn't include these.

[PermaBanned]

Also when we did some calculations in that thread, we included pastlives, enhancments and ed'sAlso BAB, Sev~ never corrected those calculations, as he did correct other stuff in that thread.

I'll need more than Sev~ simply not correcting (what I believe to be) miscalculations as proof.

That more will need to take one of two forms: either a Dev statement corroborating that "yes, PL, ED and BaB sources of PRR will also add to MRR" or when all this hits Lama/Live and those things are indeed adding in.

[Robbenklopper]

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by armor
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 2 + (BAB / 2.0) )
Medium Armor: 20 PRR, 20 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 4 + (BAB / 1.5) )
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6 + BAB )

I do see the increasing factor of PRR to stronger armor because it´s a physical thing, but i don´t see a Connection between PRR+MRR. Literally, most cloaks and Robes are anti-Magic, so why should the highest MRR be linked to strongest armor?

[lyrecono]

I'll need more than Sev~ simply not correcting (what I believe to be) miscalculations as proof.

That more will need to take one of two forms: either a Dev statement corroborating that "yes, PL, ED and BaB sources of PRR will also add to MRR" or when all this hits Lama/Live and those things are indeed adding in.

You do have a valid point.

@Sev~ can we get an awnser to this?
if you don't include current prr, this might get ugly.....

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by armor
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 2 + (BAB / 2.0) )
Medium Armor: 20 PRR, 20 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 4 + (BAB / 1.5) )
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6 + BAB )

I do see the increasing factor of PRR to stronger armor because it´s a physical thing, but i don´t see a Connection between PRR+MRR. Literally, most cloaks and Robes are anti-Magic, so why should the highest MRR be linked to strongest armor?

it is actually kinda logical, a fireman doesn't wear a pyjama, nor does a bomb defuse squad member.
from the major magic damage groups, the direct damage can be decreased by proper insulation. (force, heat, cold, electric etc)
from a game standpoint, a platemail and towershield were meaningless, evasion(and high ref save) avoided so much more damage.
these mechanics will (presumably) give back the selling point of those poor gimped classes.

[Free2Pay]

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by armor
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 2 + (BAB / 2.0) )
Medium Armor: 20 PRR, 20 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 4 + (BAB / 1.5) )
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6 + BAB )

I do see the increasing factor of PRR to stronger armor because it´s a physical thing, but i don´t see a Connection between PRR+MRR. Literally, most cloaks and Robes are anti-Magic, so why should the highest MRR be linked to strongest armor?

Now imagine magic energy as some sort of radiation, and you are about to walk into a room full of radiation (magic), and you are presented with the choice of either wearing a flimsy clothe made from the latest technology that blocks radiation or super reinforced heavy plated protection suit from the same technology. Which one will you choose to wear to go into the radiation room, clothes or heavy armor?

[B0ltdrag0n]

Now imagine magic energy as some sort of radiation, and you are about to walk into a room full of radiation (magic), and you are presented with the choice of either wearing a flimsy clothe made from the latest technology that blocks radiation or super reinforced heavy plated protection suit from the same technology. Which one will you choose to wear to go into the radiation room, clothes or heavy armor?

Depends on the type radiation. Alpha particles for instance would be equally stopped by thin clothes as they would heavy armor.

[TromboneFireTurtle]

Depends on the type radiation. Alpha particles for instance would be equally stopped by thin clothes as they would heavy armor.

Honestly, Beta radiation is stopped by skin and some clothes, so only Gamma radiation would be problematic.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Posted this in paladin, thought i'd post it here too,

suggestion: dump current version of reprisal. Instead change it to something like: when struck, you gain a stack of Reprisal: +2 sacred bonus to melee power, stacks up to 10 times, lasts 6 seconds a stack, fades 2 stacks at a time.

this is actually less damage per swing in most cases, but far more useful and far easier to keep active.

[Psiandron]

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by armor
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 2 + (BAB / 2.0) )
Medium Armor: 20 PRR, 20 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 4 + (BAB / 1.5) )
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6 + BAB )

I do see the increasing factor of PRR to stronger armor because it´s a physical thing, but i don´t see a Connection between PRR+MRR. Literally, most cloaks and Robes are anti-Magic, so why should the highest MRR be linked to strongest armor?

Probably because light/no armor characters will often have evasion and dodge and giving heavier armors a way to mitigate magical damage is a way to bring them more to a point where they might become a useful alternative. Sometimes all you need is a game mechanic for an excuse.

If you really need a causal rationale for it, iirc in at least one of the DnD books (1st ed. AD&D DMG maybe), it talks about the relative ability of different materials to block magical energy. Again iirc, heavier, denser materials are more effective in blocking magical energies than lighter, less dense materials. Also inorganic was more effective than organic.

[PermaBanned]

I do see the increasing factor of PRR to stronger armor because it´s a physical thing, but i don´t see a Connection between PRR+MRR. Literally, most cloaks and Robes are anti-Magic, so why should the highest MRR be linked to strongest armor?

Special properties of items like the Jeweled Cloak shouldn't be part of the consideration here. As to that last part, I see two primary reasons:

• Mechanically the entire purpose of introducing MRR is to make low reflex heavy armor builds a survivable alternative vs high reflex/Evasion which they currently are not. If MRR was distributed as equally to no/light armor as it is to heavy armor this goal would not be met.

{Maybe this next part is just me?}
• Conceptually I've always thought those fantasy art posters of the armored hero standing firm as the dragon spewed fire at him, parting around his raised shield looked pretty darned awesome, and it's that fantasy awesomeness I look to replicate in my D&D (both on and off line) gaming. Currently, our mighty hero gets (due to low reflex & no MRR) reduced to a molten pile of slag* with a quickness - that's neither fantastic nor awesome. MRR should hopefully be fixing that, not by making the armored hero immune like the agile rogue or monk who scampers (evades) out of harms way, but by being able to take it like the mighty hero should.

* Admittedly, that's exactly what should happen in a nonmagical reality, but I'm not here for reality, I'm here for a magical fantasy. If it were reality, agile evasion or not that intense heat would ignite the monks pajamas and burn it crisp just from being in the viscidity, right?

[Zurrander]

I love the concept of MRR, as Heavy tanks shouldn't be useless against magic. And as long as Evasion stays ahead of MRR in terms of magic defense by the same margin that Heavy armor stays ahead of No/Light Armor in terms of physical defense we should all be happy. Unfortunately the Physical Defense gap seems to be getting bigger while the Magical Defense gap is all but dissipating.
*Ideally we should see...
Improved Evasion >> Capped MRR (the proposed changes have Capped MRR out doing Improved Evasion with little investment needed) "but hey, maybe my numbers are just off"
Evasion > Capped MRR
Heavy Armor >> Light Armor
Heavy Armor >>> Pajamas


and Tower Shield should given a much bigger edge over Heavy Shields. (A 50 Pound "Wall of steel" should always out defend a 10 Pound "Sheet of steel" by at least 2-1!)

And its nonsense for my 10 pound shield to stop me form evading (yet allow full dodge). Especially when my 12 pound GreatAxe & 15 pound Light Armor don't stop Evasion!

Medium armor weighs form 25-40 pounds (you shouldn't and Can't evade in this, nor have full dodge)/ Heavy armor weighs from 35-50 pounds (you shouldn't and Can't evade-dodge)
Tower Shields weigh from 45-50 pounds (shouldn't and Can't evade-dodge)... (This all makes perfect sense, but Heavy Shields? That's just a needless Nerf.) I've suggested may times that the proposed "Shield block Boost" be moved to 1.5x for Heavy Shields & 2.0 for Tower Shields, that way towers get the boost they deserve and Heavy Shields can keep Evasion. And Lets not forget that the Upcoming Light Armor/No Armor PRR/MRR Capes should be more than enough to Stop Light Tanks Form being able to exploit the new block system (even if their already much smaller PRR/MRR didn't make the ability far less useful for them then Heavies in the first place)

[Severlin]

Sev~ explicitly said that any source of prr currently in the game would give mrr too, including enhancements, ED's, past lives, gear etc

Hmmm, then I misspoke.

Armor will give a specific amount of MRR as listed in the dev diary.
For itemization, any Sheltering items will give MRR in equal amounts to PRR.

We are changing the Defender trees to include MRR as well.

Beyond that we are not adding MRR universally. As time goes on and we rebalance trees we might find specific trees need more MRR but it will not necessarily be added as part of the upcoming patch unless you see it in the design/patch notes.

Sev~

[Severlin]

The bonus to PRR has two parts. A static value we are adding that includes MRR, and the current amount of PRR on live based on BAB which will not include MRR.

Sev~

[btolson]

Hmmm, then I misspoke.

Armor will give a specific amount of MRR as listed in the dev diary.
For itemization, any Sheltering items will give MRR in equal amounts to PRR.

We are changing the Defender trees to include MRR as well.

Beyond that we are not adding MRR universally. As time goes on and we rebalance trees we might find specific trees need more MRR but it will not necessarily be added as part of the upcoming patch unless you see it in the design/patch notes.

Sev~

Will you be changing the PRR augments to give MRR as well? If not, I expect these augments will fall far out of favor as sheltering items become "mandatory" as they provide something augments can't.

[PermaBanned]

<specifics>

Sev~

Thanx for clearing that up! It'll make pre-planning a bit easier going forward. As the other guy asked, will PRR Augments be included as Sheltering items for the purposes of providing MRR? (also: if they're intended to have they been tested, and not just assumed to work?)

[Ganak]

Please consider adding some element of self heal. Perhaps not burst healing, but perhaps a regen type of healing.

[Zurrander]

Please consider adding some element of self heal. Perhaps not burst healing, but perhaps a regen type of healing.

Ganak, Stop that. Fighter's should not be able to self heal (outside of Pots & Scrolls). They are not Divines, their not even casters. Giving fighters the ability to self heal would completely invalidate the idea of Paladins (you know, those self healing fighter dudes). IF you want self healing without loosing much fighting ability then multiclass a few Cleric/Fav levels or play a Paladin/Bard/Druid or just get enough UMD to use heal scrolls.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Please consider adding some element of self heal. Perhaps not burst healing, but perhaps a regen type of healing.

I respect that Ganak has an opinion 180 degrees in the other direction of mine. Ftrs, Barbarians, and Rogues have no self heal, and that's how it should remain. There are many options available to mitigate this already--outside of their inherent abilities.

I support new/improved healing potions, better hireling AI, and most of LFMs, but not fighter self-heal.