Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[mezzorco]

Let me try to give insight into why the changes to this tree are minimal. We had three goals in mind:

~ Bring the tree in line with the armor up changes.
~ Make it less dependent on shield.
~ Reduce some costs.

Are you going to make other classes trees in line with armor pass, too? Like adding MRR?

(while we're at it, are you aware that EK and Warchanter Medium armor proficiency doesn't give the stated amount of PRR?)(Link)

[maddmatt70]

A character cannot activate Sacred Defense stance and Stalwart Defense stance at the same time.

Are you sure that will still be the case?

[Vargouille]

Are you sure that will still be the case?

It's correct that a character cannot activate Sacred Defense stance and Stalwart Defense stance at the same time.

[Wongar]

I think when the Vanguard tree is released on the live forums you will get a chance to see our plans for weapon and shield DPS.

Sev~

Trying to get it in the next release? or sometime in the future?

I think we would really like to see what you are thinking - even if it is early and subject to change.

[Robbenklopper]

Ar first read-over, the changes to the Defender tree felt so wrong, and the first thought that came up was "rename it to stalwart offender".
My Second thought was "why the hell want the devs remove the shield requirement and make it available to everybody???" Oh so wow, now my THF Axe fighter can get even more powerful, great! I really love this toon of mine, but i see an unbalance growing.
And my S&B fighter is made even more unspecial in comparison to that build. The most and extraordinary Tier feats in the stalwart tree were meant for the s-h-i-e-l-d users.


For what do we Need kensei any longer? Just for the abused Monk class with their splash builds?

In Addition i think, now we can finally burry barbarian class forever. With such an upcoming massive powerboost to fighter-class ....

At second read-over, most of the new Changes still feel so wrong.

[Free2Pay]

no No NO. If you want self healing inherent in a class, choose a different class or multiclass. Br epic and twist self healing. Buy pots. Get a hireling. Find another way.

I don't perceive life leeching as being on the same level as self healing. Leeching only takes place when you are hitting enemies and when there are no enemies around it means no "healing". And you are really putting yourself in more danger by getting close to hit enemies.

There should be some way for pure fighters to recover hitpoints while in combat. Outside of combat it doesn't really matter how one heal himself. Pots? Sure but I see it more as a form of out of combat healing. Epic abilities only kick in after level 20, what about pre lvl 20? How does one summon hireling in Subterrance?

[Mryal]

Are you going to make other classes trees in line with armor pass, too? Like adding MRR?

(while we're at it, are you aware that EK and Warchanter Medium armor proficiency doesn't give the stated amount of PRR?)(Link)

This.
Will ALL forms of granting PRR now (enhancements, set bonuses, epic DR fear, EDs) give MRR also? If not, when can we get a list of what will be affected and what wont be affected?

[Ladislaio]

12 monk/4 paladin/4 fighter would be 40%

Tier 5 in WC gives Expedious Chant, so 15 bard/1 barb/4 fighter would be 55% if they all stack linearly, you can also take sprint boost for an extra 30%.

Last I checked you couldn't be in both stances at once, and same-name enhancements don't stack so the 12 monk version is out.

I wasn't counting temporary boosts to speed, but was unaware of the Expeditious Chant, so that really means that the 15-4-1 build should be able to put out some serious run speed... I want to see it, I really hope they make everything stack nicely

[maddmatt70]

It's correct that a character cannot activate Sacred Defense stance and Stalwart Defense stance at the same time.

Thanks for the clarification Vargouille. I think that these two trees will be fine then although the action point cost is on the high side and I am not sure offensively that these two defender trees will be sufficient, but it is hard to know that without seeing the third trees for paladin and fighter and any other offensive changes to shield bearers. A tank (shield character) is good for only a small % of content and they need to be good in more content then just what they tank in to be more well received in the game.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

I don't see why they're making a new Vanguard tree with S&B offense, and stripping most Shield stuff from Stalwart. I mean, how will it work for various kinds of pure Fighter builds?

If you're making a Greataxe or TWF Fighter, you'll put 41 points into Kensei and then what? Several into race, but you still probably have 20-30 to use. Throw them into Stalwart, which is mostly pointless unless you plan to use the Defensive stance? If you do use the stance then you are very close to being a real primary Stalwart (because tier5 doesn't do much). If you don't use stance it's because you want Rage bonuses.

On the other hand for an S&B Fighter, you'll obviously put a bunch into Vanguard and then have a pretty open choice: a lot into Stalwart for defense (all those AC bonuses synergize with the shield you have equipped) or into Kensei (offense with your mainhand weapon).

Despite Stalwart having lost many of the strict shield requirements, it still has many features that increase AC (directly, or via shield/armor multipliers). If you're not using a shield, your AC isn't high anyhow. So Stalwart remains a shield-focused tree in some ways. Therefore it looks like Fighter will have two trees for S&B and one tree for non-S&B. Is that really a good idea?

I think it'd be better to use Kensei = weapon damage + strike effects (stun, trip etc), Stalwart = physical defense + shield combat, and Vanguard = buffs, non-weapon debuffs, special defense / movement. Oh well, we really must see Vanguard to learn what the real plan is.

a non-shield fighter now has a lot of goodies in SD:
Things to aim for: 25 PRR/MRR, +3 saves, and your choice of +20% health/+6 str/6 con- all for a measly 14 points

We also don't know what will be available for twf/thf in Vanguard tree. While it may be shield focused, that's not to say there won't be any abilities that don't require a shield.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I don't perceive life leeching as being on the same level as self healing. Leeching only takes place when you are hitting enemies and when there are no enemies around it means no "healing". And you are really putting yourself in more danger by getting close to hit enemies.

There should be some way for pure fighters to recover hitpoints while in combat. Outside of combat it doesn't really matter how one heal himself. Pots? Sure but I see it more as a form of out of combat healing. Epic abilities only kick in after level 20, what about pre lvl 20? How does one summon hireling in Subterrance?

I understand your position, so let's agree to disagree.

As for hirelings in the sub: threat density is low so slower alternatives may suffice. Failing that, there is always the option of an LFM. Raid areas are not designed to be soloed at level. While it is certainly doable, I don't feel concessions need to be made to enable someone to do so.

[Robbenklopper]

I don't perceive life leeching as being on the same level as self healing. Leeching only takes place when you are hitting enemies and when there are no enemies around it means no "healing". And you are really putting yourself in more danger by getting close to hit enemies.

There should be some way for pure fighters to recover hitpoints while in combat. Outside of combat it doesn't really matter how one heal himself. Pots? Sure but I see it more as a form of out of combat healing. Epic abilities only kick in after level 20, what about pre lvl 20? How does one summon hireling in Subterrance?

I think CaptainSpacePony is, for a pitty, right.

Pure Fighter is pure fighter. Divines do healing. Everyone has its role or you´ll have to multiclass if you can´t live without it. Even twisting in EDs is borderlined imo. I want to Play a MMO and not a MSO. That´s it and that´s me.

If we demand divine healings for fighters, we´ll soon demand arcane powers for a fighter. This would be apart the road.

[PermaBanned]

stalwart offender

Lol Brings to my mind the image of a Kender Tank all turtled up & using their racial Taunt ability...

[Robbenklopper]

Lol Brings to my mind the image of a Kender Tank all turtled up & using their racial Taunt ability...

Yeah .... i´m looking Forward to the 3 feet tall, 30 Pounds, Tower-shielded heavyplate block of metal power-criting good olde Harry.

[PermaBanned]

Yeah .... i´m looking Forward to the 3 feet tall, 30 Pounds, Tower-shielded heavyplate block of metal power-criting good olde Harry.

Ya know, for fun & flavor's sake I really want to roll one up & join an RP group now

Unless there's any objection, I'll borrow the "Stalwart Offender" as the build name ^^

[PsychoBlonde]

What are shield-users getting to make up for the effective loss of utility, here?

[Wongar]

What are shield-users getting to make up for the effective loss of utility, here?

From my understanding - the Vanguard Tree

[Psiandron]

Okay a couple of things,
Some of these may well have been asked before, but oh well.

10 AP, Ftr6: (Moved to Tier 3) Overbalance: Your shields gain On Vorpal: Knock an opponent to the ground.

Sorry, but I've never taken this (I never go very deep in this tree to be honest). So, what exactly does this mean?
Is there a save vs. the effect, if so what's type is it? Will it apply to some/all/no rednames? If there are multiple opponents around you will/can it affect more than one of them?

Stalwart Defensive Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and Amor Maximum Dexterity Bonus.

The bonus to max dex I have no issue with, the bonus to armor class, well if your are not going to make it something useful, why not just remove it? Personally, given the weakness of AC, I'd think that +3/+5/+10 would be far from giving away the store.

Armor Expertise: Armor you equip gains a +(1/2/3) bonus to its Enhancement bonus.

See above.



As a general sort of thing *** is with the 20second action boosts?

I really have to say that I hate them with a passion.

Especially if there is a resulting animation, they are often not even worth hitting when you are in combat due to the dps loss.

Even 30 second boosts are pretty dismal in a fight too. Fighter is rife with these uber-short boosts. Hell, Power Surge only lasts one minute when DM lasts 2 and PS has far more limited number of uses. It's the same when you compare fighter haste and pally zeal.

Sorry, pet peeve.
/rant off

[lyrecono]

This.
Will ALL forms of granting PRR now (enhancements, set bonuses, epic DR fear, EDs) give MRR also? If not, when can we get a list of what will be affected and what wont be affected?

Sev~ explicitly said that any source of prr currently in the game would give mrr too, including enhancements, ED's, past lives, gear etc

[tc12]

Didn't the original dev plans for Defender - given the Dwarven Defender origin - include non-Fighter Dwarven access? I can't believe 5 years later this still isn't worked in. Meanwhile Arcane Archer was ganted first to Elves and then to Half-elves independent of the number or Ranger levels they have. Why can't Dwarves unlock this the same way -- 4 AP, then the tree core granted by character levels not Fighter levels?