Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[Ladislaio]

I have to say I *love* that you do not move slower in stance anymore and that the Swift Defense(Fighter and Paladin trees, t4) make you go faster now. It was always hard to get aggro form the people who ran faster than you and hit things first, and this closes the gap a bit. Also makes it easier to catch up to mobs that are being kited.

Swift Defense: Stalwart Defense grants +10% Movement.
Swift Defense: Sacred Defense grants you a 10% sacred bonus to movement speed.

Currently on live you can be in Stalwart Defense while swashbucling. Is Swift Defense going to stack with Fast Movement(Swashbuckler, t2)? What about the Monk and Barbarian class features Fast Movement?

As Swift Defense from the Paladin tree provides a sacred bonus to movement speed, it *will* stack with the monk class feature Fast Movement, correct?

This would mean that the top run speed is +35% (16 monk, 4 paladin; 16 monk, 4 fighter; 1 barbarian, 4 fighter, 15 bard; if all faster movement stacked these splits could hit +35%[also depends on how they stack])

[Thar]

I think when the Vanguard tree is released on the live forums you will get a chance to see our plans for weapon and shield DPS.

Sev~

But will you have enough points left over if you tier 5 one of this tree to spend in it as you probably won't be able to do kensi or knight of chalice AND the vanguard?

excited to see the changes though if it is even 60% as good as swashbuckler.

[jakeelala]

I am actually always one of those who like two weapon fighting tanks. I currently have a 10 monk 6 paladin 4 fighter which uses shortswords and likely will be gutted with these changes or at least too far behind 14 paladin 6 fighter to be competitive.

Thats probably for the best. Losing your one build opens up many many more.

[cru121]

no No NO! Fighters should not be granted spell points, spell power, or anything else spelly-welly. For those sorts of things look to Eldritch Knights or some other tree in a DIFFERENT class.

OK, fair point. I still think T3 is a bit empty; and I tried to make Armor Expertise useful.

[Krelar]

Let me try to give insight into why the changes to this tree are minimal. We had three goals in mind:

~ Bring the tree in line with the armor up changes.
~ Make it less dependent on shield.
~ Reduce some costs.

Basically if it didn't fall in line with one of these goals we didn't make changes to the tree. That's why a lot of existing enhancements were not changed.

(A full redesign of this tree would have pushed the next update out too far.)

Sev~

So are their plans to redesign the defender trees for fighter and paladin to make them more interesting in a future patch? (sort of like you did with bards)

[Scrabbler]

[*]Shield Expertise: Weapons and Shields you equip gain a +(1/2/3) Competence bonus to their Enhancement bonus.

Need to rename "Shield Expertise", now that the +3 weapon damage is (by far) the most important part of the enhancement. That it also gives +3 shield AC is incidental.

[*]Block and Cut: Melee Attack: Performs a melee attack with your main hand weapon that deals (+1/+2/+3)[W]. On Damage: You gain a (10/15/25)% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (No longer requires shield)

Please replace Block and Cut with something else. +25% Doublestrike for 50% of the time is a giant bonus which is important in all combats. (Compare it to Action Boost Doublestrike, which provides a slightly larger bonus but for an extremely limited amount of uses)

But it is not fun or challenging to click the same icon every 20 seconds, through every combat forever.

For a minimal example, if you put Block and Cut on a multiselector so we could get either the planned version, or a passive enhancement that gave 12% permanent doublestrike... well it would be very tempting to take the passive one, even though it's weaker under best-case usage.

[Ayseifn]

I have to say I *love* that you do not move slower in stance anymore and that the Swift Defense(Fighter and Paladin trees, t4) make you go faster now. It was always hard to get aggro form the people who ran faster than you and hit things first, and this closes the gap a bit. Also makes it easier to catch up to mobs that are being kited.

Swift Defense: Stalwart Defense grants +10% Movement.
Swift Defense: Sacred Defense grants you a 10% sacred bonus to movement speed.

Currently on live you can be in Stalwart Defense while swashbucling. Is Swift Defense going to stack with Fast Movement(Swashbuckler, t2)? What about the Monk and Barbarian class features Fast Movement?

As Swift Defense from the Paladin tree provides a sacred bonus to movement speed, it *will* stack with the monk class feature Fast Movement, correct?

This would mean that the top run speed is +35% (16 monk, 4 paladin; 16 monk, 4 fighter; 1 barbarian, 4 fighter, 15 bard; if all faster movement stacked these splits could hit +35%[also depends on how they stack])

12 monk/4 paladin/4 fighter would be 40%

Tier 5 in WC gives Expedious Chant, so 15 bard/1 barb/4 fighter would be 55% if they all stack linearly, you can also take sprint boost for an extra 30%.

[Scrabbler]

[*]20 AP, Ftr12: Stand Fast: (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: You gain a +20 bonus to Balance and saves vs. Fear for 20 seconds. This ability can be used while feared or knocked down to end these effects. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)

This core12 is (still) very weak, and gives almost zero incentive to take Fighter levels 7-12. At minimum, it should be changed to 30 seconds of immunity to knockdown, slippery surface, and fear. Or how about this: A toggle for immunity to knockdown, slippery, fear, but which reduces you movement speed 10% or 15% and prevents tumbling?

[*]30 AP, Ftr18: Defensive Sweep: (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: You generate +50% threat and your basic attacks strike two targets per swing instead of one for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)[*]41 AP, Ftr20: Last Stand: Passive: You gain +4 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: Gain +100% Maximum hit points and +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)

I'm looking at the core18 and capstone features because they're the only thing you'd sacrifice to splash 3 levels into another class.

The core18 is very weak: temporary threat boosts have little use, and anyone with 18 Fighter levels has probably already learned Great Cleave (making the second target effect pretty redundant). If I want to fight multiple enemies, it's more likely I'll want to Cleave into a group of 4+ than Defense Sweep into only 2.

The capstone is alright, I guess. With how DDO combat works, it's rare to be able to predict a powerful enemy attack (without also having enough time to escape it with WASD). So that weakens the capstone a bit; maybe consider offering a variant capstone which automatically triggers that bonus when your health goes low?


Anyway, it almost doesn't need to be said, but it looks like Fighter17/Bard3 will be a much better way to build a Stalwart Defender than pure Fighter. Unlike the Kensei or Assassin trees, there's nothing in Stalwart tier5 which doesn't stack with Swashbuckler stance.

[Scrabbler]

I think when the Vanguard tree is released on the live forums you will get a chance to see our plans for weapon and shield DPS.

I don't see why they're making a new Vanguard tree with S&B offense, and stripping most Shield stuff from Stalwart. I mean, how will it work for various kinds of pure Fighter builds?

If you're making a Greataxe or TWF Fighter, you'll put 41 points into Kensei and then what? Several into race, but you still probably have 20-30 to use. Throw them into Stalwart, which is mostly pointless unless you plan to use the Defensive stance? If you do use the stance then you are very close to being a real primary Stalwart (because tier5 doesn't do much). If you don't use stance it's because you want Rage bonuses.

On the other hand for an S&B Fighter, you'll obviously put a bunch into Vanguard and then have a pretty open choice: a lot into Stalwart for defense (all those AC bonuses synergize with the shield you have equipped) or into Kensei (offense with your mainhand weapon).

Despite Stalwart having lost many of the strict shield requirements, it still has many features that increase AC (directly, or via shield/armor multipliers). If you're not using a shield, your AC isn't high anyhow. So Stalwart remains a shield-focused tree in some ways. Therefore it looks like Fighter will have two trees for S&B and one tree for non-S&B. Is that really a good idea?

I think it'd be better to use Kensei = weapon damage + strike effects (stun, trip etc), Stalwart = physical defense + shield combat, and Vanguard = buffs, non-weapon debuffs, special defense / movement. Oh well, we really must see Vanguard to learn what the real plan is.

[Wizza]

So Stalwart Defender bonus are Competence. Paladin bonus are Sacred.

4 Paladin gives you:

25 PRR, 25 MRR
+3 Sacred Saving Throws
+6 Sacred Con
+20% Sacred Max HP bonus
Divine Grace
Divine Might



4 Fighter gives you the same:


25 PRR, 25 MRR
+3 Competence Saving Throws
+6 Competence Con
+20% Competence Max HP bonus


And you still have 12 levels to play with.

[thegreatneil]

So Stalwart Defender bonus are Competence. Paladin bonus are Sacred.

4 Paladin gives you:

25 PRR, 25 MRR
+3 Sacred Saving Throws
+6 Sacred Con
+20% Sacred Max HP bonus
Divine Grace
Divine Might



4 Fighter gives you the same:


25 PRR, 25 MRR
+3 Competence Saving Throws
+6 Competence Con
+20% Competence Max HP bonus


And you still have 12 levels to play with.

No.

[Wizza]

No.

Great reply. It totally enlightens me.

Now, why no?

[lyrecono]

Greetings.

We are updating a few enhancements in the Stalwart Defender tree for Fighters. These changes are designed at making the tree more desirable and allowing it to better work with the armor mitigation changes.

First, we changed some AP costs for existing enhancements:

Stalwart Defensive Mastery now costs 1/1/1 AP.
Stalwart Shield Mastery now costs 1/1/1 AP.
Reinforced Defenses now costs 1/1/1 AP both times you can take it.

Now onto the tree changes:

Innate Abilities

• 1 AP: Toughness: You gain +1 Hit Point for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Innate Ability you possess from this tree grants +3% Fortification.
• 5 AP, Ftr3: (Moved to Tier 2) Stalwart Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance, 10 Magical Resistance, a 50% bonus to threat generation, and are immune to rage effects. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)
• 10 AP, Ftr6: (Moved to Tier 3) Overbalance: Your shields gain On Vorpal: Knock an opponent to the ground.
• 20 AP, Ftr12: Stand Fast: (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: You gain a +20 bonus to Balance and saves vs. Fear for 20 seconds. This ability can be used while feared or knocked down to end these effects. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
• 30 AP, Ftr18: Defensive Sweep: (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: You generate +50% threat and your basic attacks strike two targets per swing instead of one for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
• 41 AP, Ftr20: Last Stand: Passive: You gain +4 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: Gain +100% Maximum hit points and +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)

Tier One (0 AP Required)

• Item Defense: You have a (25/50/75)% chance to negate potential item wear.
• Improved Stalwart Defense: Multiselector:
  
  • Resilient Defense: While in Stalwart Defense, you gain a +(1/2/3) Competence bonus to all Saving Throws.
  • Durable Defense: While in Stalwart Defense, you gain a +(5/10/15) Competence bonus to Physical and Magical Resistance Rating.
  • Inciting Defense: While in Stalwart Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Competence bonus to melee threat generation.
  
  
• Stalwart Defensive Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and Amor Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
• Defense Boost: Activate to gain a (+5/+10/+15) Action Boost bonus to Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.
• Threatening Countenance: +(1/2/3) Haggle and Intimidate, +(5/10/15)% melee threat generation

Tier Two (5 AP Required)

• Shield Striking: (Note: This enhancement was removed.)
• Improved Stalwart Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• Stalwart Shield Mastery: +(5%/10%/15%) Shield Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Tower Shield Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
• Armor Expertise: Armor you equip gains a +(1/2/3) bonus to its Enhancement bonus.
• Instinctive Defense: You take (5%/10%/15%) less extra damage when struck while helpless. (Additional damage while helpless varies by difficulty setting from 5% to 25%.)

Tier Three (10 AP Required)

• Improved Stalwart Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• Greater Stalwart Defense: Multiselector:
  
  • Strong Defense: Stalwart Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Competence bonus to Strength
  • Hardy Defense: Stalwart Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Competence bonus to Constitution
  • Tenacious Defense: Stalwart Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(10/15/20)% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
• Shield Expertise: Weapons and Shields you equip gain a +(1/2/3) Competence bonus to their Enhancement bonus.
• +1 Str or Con: +1 Strength or Constitution

Tier Four (20 AP Required)

• Counterattack: Action Boost: You gain On Shield Block: Your next attack within 3 seconds gains +1[W]. This stacks (1/2/3) times.
• Swift Defense: Stalwart Defense grants +10% Movement.
• Greater Stalwart Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• Reinforced Defenses: Multiselector:
  
  • Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by (15/30/50)%.
  • Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by (15/30/50)%.
• +1 Str or Con: +1 Strength or Constitution

Tier Five (30 AP Required)

• Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times. (No longer requires shield)
• Block and Cut: Melee Attack: Performs a melee attack with your main hand weapon that deals (+1/+2/+3)[W]. On Damage: You gain a (10/15/25)% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (No longer requires shield)
• Greater Stalwart Defense: Further improves your Stalwart Defense stance. Choose the option you didn't chose at Tier 3 or 4.
• Reinforced Defenses: See tier four. (Pick one you don’t have.)

Sev~

@Sev~
In order to tank you need these characteristics:
A way to survive incoming damage long enough for the next "heal" to arive.
A way of getting and holding the "agro"
With these in mind i have the following questions:
What gives this tree more agro then a sorc, monchker etc?
When you were running your test toon through EE's what kind of armor and shield combo did you use to justify the defensive enhancements in this tree? Were you able to block more then 80%? Couldn't the enhancements be spend in a better place?
At this point the capstone and tier 5 abilities are horribly underpowered compaired to the paladin, let alone one of the non gimped classes.

How do you justify a capstone as a 20 seconds clicky? a paladin has the same "oh ****" moment clicky called lay on hands and they get it at low level.

the fighter seems no more able to take damage then the current bard.

[Scrabbler]

So Stalwart Defender bonus are Competence. Paladin bonus are Sacred.
...
And you still have 12 levels to play with.

A character cannot activate Sacred Defense stance and Stalwart Defense stance at the same time.

[Wizza]

A character cannot activate Sacred Defense stance and Stalwart Defense stance at the same time.

I totally forgot about that. Thanks.

[Free2Pay]

In my mind, it's really hard to say how survivable wearing heavy armor ultimately will be without some form of healing capability even when taking "constant" damages. If other classes don't need a tank, then why should a tank still need a dedicated healer? Why should I have to up my umd/concentration skill for scrolls when there is ASF? There should be a decoupling of fighters from divines.

While you are at it, kindly give fighters some bodyfeeder/lifeshielding/life leeching capabilities while you are doing a fighter enhancement pass please.

[Bridge_Dweller]

In my mind, it's really hard to say how survivable wearing heavy armor ultimately will be without some form of healing capability even when taking "constant" damages. If other classes don't need a tank, then why should a tank still need a dedicated healer? Why should I have to up my umd/concentration skill for scrolls when there is ASF? There should be a decoupling of fighters from divines.

While you are at it, kindly give fighters some bodyfeeder/lifeshielding/life leeching capabilities while you are doing a fighter enhancement pass please.

Cocoon.

Renewal.

Bladeforged.

[Thrudh]

The boost being usable every 2 min would go a long ways towards making it feel like you could use it more freely, rather than having to save it for "really bad" things. Thats only a 100s wait when it ends, before you can hit it again... thats pretty manageable I think.

That's a good point... The problem with longer cooldown boosts is you sometimes you're scared to use them too early, and then sometimes you end up barely using them at all...

You're right that a 120 second cooldown means you'll feel more comfortable using it. And going pure is a pretty big sacrifice so one should be able to use the capstone more freely.

[CaptainSpacePony]

In my mind, it's really hard to say how survivable wearing heavy armor ultimately will be without some form of healing capability even when taking "constant" damages. If other classes don't need a tank, then why should a tank still need a dedicated healer? Why should I have to up my umd/concentration skill for scrolls when there is ASF? There should be a decoupling of fighters from divines.

While you are at it, kindly give fighters some bodyfeeder/lifeshielding/life leeching capabilities while you are doing a fighter enhancement pass please.

no No NO. If you want self healing inherent in a class, choose a different class or multiclass. Br epic and twist self healing. Buy pots. Get a hireling. Find another way.

[Varinon]

In my mind, it's really hard to say how survivable wearing heavy armor ultimately will be without some form of healing capability even when taking "constant" damages. If other classes don't need a tank, then why should a tank still need a dedicated healer? Why should I have to up my umd/concentration skill for scrolls when there is ASF? There should be a decoupling of fighters from divines.

While you are at it, kindly give fighters some bodyfeeder/lifeshielding/life leeching capabilities while you are doing a fighter enhancement pass please.

Step 1: Stack up a bunch of Positive Spell Power (230 for this example)
Step 2: Stack up a bunch of healing amp (the concept I had, had 483.25% healing amp)
Step 3: Be a divine crusader. Twist Healing Spring & Cocoon. Wear a SP item so you have more Spell Points
Step 4: Cast healing spring and Consecration (with Sacred Ground)
Step 5: Be healed by Sacred Ground for 311 HP/3 seconds
Step 6: Be healed by Healing Spring for 5-483 HP/20 seconds
Step 7: Be healed by Cocoon for 55-333 HP/2 seconds or 97-583 HP if you have Empower Healing
Step 8: ???
Step 9: Never die, or get a 400 Positive Spell Power radiant servant to die by having him cast heal on you, therefore healing you for 6,958 hitpoints (on a crit).