Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[EllisDee37]

Other people who get Haste Boost include Pal18/Fig2 and Pal18/Rog2.

So? 18/2 fighter/paladin gets divine grace, and at level 20 can twist in divine might.

[bbqzor]

No Alacrity in Heroic levels.

Im sure you mean the capstone, but related: If you presume Paladins will take holy sword as their first lv4 spell, they dont get Zeal until 15. Fighters get Block and Cut at level 5, which is 2.5% avg doublestrike more just pressing the button, 10 levels earlier, mana free. Its not a comparison fighters lose, be it at lv20 or before.

[Zurrander]

What makes you think that Holy Sword is dispellable, or costs noticeable spellpoints?

"Not game breaking" is a depressingly low bar.


Ha ha what, Good Death? You put Good Death up against Holy Sword, seriously? How many times can I Good Death per minute?


No Alacrity in Heroic levels.


Other people who get Haste Boost include Pal18/Fig2 and Pal18/Rog2.

Holy Sword cost 25sp (unextended), considering that a lv 20 pally's base spell pool is 260 I'd say that's quite a bit. If the Pally plans to use any other spells (ever) then 10% for holy sword is quite noticeable (worth it, but noticeable). I'd also find it reasonable to assume that its dispellabe (now that its a buff instead of an item creation spell) as most buffs are. Notice that i didn't put A Good Death up against Holy Sword, I put A Good Death + Keen Edge up against it (and regardless of who wins its a close race). So, Pallys get +1multi/+1range that use spell points and are likely dispellabe. And Fighters get a perm +1range and an Attack that gives +1multi & a possible extra 500 damage on a 30sec cool down. You say pallys win, i say who cares they both have strengths & weaknesses. and don't pretend for a second that Zeal beats Alacrity or that fighters can't get their double strike higher than 10% before lv 15 (notice that you left out A Good Death & Keen edge coming several levels before holy sword???). And stop pretending that 30% haste boost doesn't matter because a pally could splash fighter (that still makes it a win for fighters)? You simply don't get to complain because a Lv 15 Pally might be able to match the damage output of a Lv 12 fighter (and ignore that superior tactics will still put the fighter ahead). And you certainly can't pretend that a Max Damage Pally could match a Max Damage Fighter against any None evil mob. And by the way, I'm all in favor of Kensei getting a perm +1multi, but its not to help them "Keep Up" with holy sword (they already do that). Its to make them as good (or better) than Swashbucklers, because for pete sake their Fighters! No one in game should be able to out melee them save for Raged up Barbs.

[Scrabbler]

If the Pally plans to use any other spells (ever) then 10% for holy sword is quite noticeable (worth it, but noticeable).

No, since there are Magi items which you use to cast initial buffs and then unequip, it is only barely noticeable.

I'd also find it reasonable to assume that its dispellabe (now that its a buff instead of an item creation spell) as most buffs are.

Can you list a couple of existing weapon buffs that are dispellable?

Notice that i didn't put A Good Death up against Holy Sword, I put A Good Death + Keen Edge up against it (and regardless of who wins its a close race).

Keen Edge + Good Death versus Holy Sword is not even close. Good Death could be compared to Divine Sacrifice, maybe, and it hardly beats that.

And stop pretending that 30% haste boost doesn't matter because a pally could splash fighter (that still makes it a win for fighters)?

It is true that the value of Haste Boost as a Fighter feature is comparatively reduced by Haste Boost being available with Fighter2, Rogue2, Ranger2, and Legendary Dreadnaught.

And you certainly can't pretend that a Max Damage Pally could match a Max Damage Fighter against any None evil mob.

When Haste Boost isn't running, or if the Paladin obtains Haste Boost from somewhere, then I do indeed think the Paladin will have a lot more damage. An ongoing +1 crit mult is a big deal.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

a good death is so worthless, its not worth the 1 ap it costs to train.

the only effect you will get from it reliably is +x[w] every thirty seconds. there is no guarantee youll crit when you use it, and anything that is at 20% or lower hp either is dead before you can use it or isnt killed by it which seems to me like it defeats the purpose of having a finishing blow type ability.

auto attacks are better than this, thats how terrible it is.

[Scrabbler]

Im sure you mean the capstone, but related: If you presume Paladins will take holy sword as their first lv4 spell, they dont get Zeal until 15. Fighters get Block and Cut at level 5, which is 2.5% avg doublestrike more just pressing the button, 10 levels earlier, mana free. Its not a comparison fighters lose, be it at lv20 or before.

1. You can't get a tier 5 enhancement until only 3 levels before someone can learn Zeal.

2. Fighters who take Block and Cut don't have Keen Edge. So their crit profile is even further behind Holy Sword.


It's interesting to ask if Block and Cut is more DPS than Keen Edge? It shouldn't be, because a pure Kensei (even non-Monk) should have more DPS than a pure Stalwart. Even if Block and Cut was a bit better in theory, I would tend to stick with Keen Edge to save the work of pressing that icon all day long.

[Ayseifn]

Block and Cut should be more DPS than Keen Edge for weapons with a 2x crit profile (wind beats earth) but not sure for x3 or higher.

[lyrecono]

I think the passive +4 con and +2 tactics is the relevant part. The clicky is occasionally useful but people will be taking it for the passive bumps Im sure.

the +4 con is fluff, 60hp at lv 30? (maybe more if in tank mode) on a toon that currently can reach 2300 hp on its own? no thank you, very underwhelming.
With all his stats spread around for tanking, where does it get the str to pull of tactics? no power surge(too expencive) or divine might to help out
let alone Dwarven tanks with "throw your weight around".

The capstone needs a workaround, something like a stance, similar to palemaster, sorcerers elemental stances etc, something that makes it worthy of 20 levels of 2 bad saves, no self healing, bad skill selection, skill penalties, a now lower mrr then prr, scrutiny from other players etc

[bbqzor]

Fighters who take Block and Cut don't have Keen Edge. So their crit profile is even further behind Holy Sword.

Fair point. But there are a lot of mobs immune to crit, and in the current game the list includes some rather important ones (truthful one, almost the whole deathwrym raid, a lot of haunted halls, etc). With Epic Orchard coming next, I can only imagine that list is going to get longer.

Doublestrike is always helpful in doing dps and maintaining threat. Crits only matter when applicable, and paladins get no help in enabling them like a Rogue would. And a tank is about consistency. Thats what doublestrike is, consistent, much more than crits for ensuring threat is good all the time.

the +4 con is fluff, 60hp at lv 30? (maybe more if in tank mode)

At 28 its very likely ~80 for a tank in unyielding. This is the Stalwart thread so I think thats a fair assumption. More to the point though, its not necessarily about the hp. Its about taking the pressure off having to pump con with your build points, letting you spend them elsewhere more freely. You dont need another 80 hp, but if you started an 18 con now you can start a 16 (since its currently +2, you save 2), keep the same hp totals, and get 6 bp back for say more str or dex or wis. That can be really, really huge. Is it perfect for everyone? Nope, Ive no idea how you (or whomever) builds their tanks. But the way I see it, thats a lot of stat "back" and Im cool with that.

With all his stats spread around for tanking, where does it get the str to pull of tactics

And this kind of thinking is why I say above, getting points "back" is of interest.

The capstone needs ... something that makes it worthy of 20 levels of 2 bad saves, no self healing, bad skill selection, skill penalties, a now lower mrr then prr, scrutiny from other players etc

Where to begin... the saves difference is only +6 vs another "capstone" class. No self healing, okay, but several classes have that and by the time the Capstone is relevant epic healing is available, so its hardly a capstone issue. Bad skill selection, fair, but again many classes have low skill points or poor lists. Skill penalties, what? Fighter doesnt penalize anything. Now lower MRR, what? Its a new stat, everyones in the same boat with it, it didnt go down just for fighters. Scrutiny? I play with fighters all the time, theyre great... maybe your server or play window or something has a less open mind, but I dont think a capstone can fix that...

What you get over those 20 levels is 11 class feats (12 with tower shield). Thats the trade off for almost all of that. Its nothing the capstone is going to address. Its not going to give you +6 saves, or +20 skills, or super self healing, or something. I mean, assassins get 4 sneak dice. Sure, more dps, woo.... but they already have that in spades and it does nothing to address their poor fort/will saves, their assassinate dc, their stealth skills, or anything. And its a popular one too.

Im not saying this capstone is great (honestly, its probably the weakest part of the tree next to reprisal which is just awful). But any change has to address the capstone itself. Not class level progression, thats a whole different domain.

Id suggest some things in parallel to what I suggested for Paladins:
- 20s duration, 120s cooldown, so its only off for 100s between. 3 min cd is too long to really use this readily without worrying youre locking yourself out later.
- Also, it should heal you for 1k when you activate it. Why 1k? Because at lv20 (when you get this) thats very likely a full heal. And with a 2 minute cd, doing a 10k full heal is probably too much. The idea isnt that the capstone should full heal you (the paladin one certainly doesnt, its only 250). But with some decent healing amp and not hitting the boost when youre very low, 1k is certainly enough to keep you, more or less, "topped off" well when employing the boost as you get into epics and the 2k+ hp range.

I think an Action Boost which does 100% max hp with a 1k heal to fill it, +50 PRR/MRR (more than paladins get in the whole tree, note), a "healing guard", and can be used when helpless, every 2 minutes, would be pretty solid. On top of the huge help with stat points 4 con gets you, and 2 tactics so all fighters arent forced to go kensei capstone to maintain useful dcs. Thats quite a good package. IMHO. Just some thoughts. Cheers.

[lyrecono]

At 28 its very likely ~80 for a tank in unyielding. This is the Stalwart thread so I think thats a fair assumption. More to the point though, its not necessarily about the hp. Its about taking the pressure off having to pump con with your build points, letting you spend them elsewhere more freely. You dont need another 80 hp, but if you started an 18 con now you can start a 16 (since its currently +2, you save 2), keep the same hp totals, and get 6 bp back for say more str or dex or wis. That can be really, really huge. Is it perfect for everyone? Nope, Ive no idea how you (or whomever) builds their tanks. But the way I see it, thats a lot of stat "back" and Im cool with that.



And this kind of thinking is why I say above, getting points "back" is of interest.



Where to begin... the saves difference is only +6 vs another "capstone" class. No self healing, okay, but several classes have that and by the time the Capstone is relevant epic healing is available, so its hardly a capstone issue. Bad skill selection, fair, but again many classes have low skill points or poor lists. Skill penalties, what? Fighter doesnt penalize anything. Now lower MRR, what? Its a new stat, everyones in the same boat with it, it didnt go down just for fighters. Scrutiny? I play with fighters all the time, theyre great... maybe your server or play window or something has a less open mind, but I dont think a capstone can fix that...

What you get over those 20 levels is 11 class feats (12 with tower shield). Thats the trade off for almost all of that. Its nothing the capstone is going to address. Its not going to give you +6 saves, or +20 skills, or super self healing, or something. I mean, assassins get 4 sneak dice. Sure, more dps, woo.... but they already have that in spades and it does nothing to address their poor fort/will saves, their assassinate dc, their stealth skills, or anything. And its a popular one too.

Im not saying this capstone is great (honestly, its probably the weakest part of the tree next to reprisal which is just awful). But any change has to address the capstone itself. Not class level progression, thats a whole different domain.

Id suggest some things in parallel to what I suggested for Paladins:
- 20s duration, 120s cooldown, so its only off for 100s between. 3 min cd is too long to really use this readily without worrying youre locking yourself out later.
- Also, it should heal you for 1k when you activate it. Why 1k? Because at lv20 (when you get this) thats very likely a full heal. And with a 2 minute cd, doing a 10k full heal is probably too much. The idea isnt that the capstone should full heal you (the paladin one certainly doesnt, its only 250). But with some decent healing amp and not hitting the boost when youre very low, 1k is certainly enough to keep you, more or less, "topped off" well when employing the boost as you get into epics and the 2k+ hp range.

I think an Action Boost which does 100% max hp with a 1k heal to fill it, +50 PRR/MRR (more than paladins get in the whole tree, note), a "healing guard", and can be used when helpless, every 2 minutes, would be pretty solid. On top of the huge help with stat points 4 con gets you, and 2 tactics so all fighters arent forced to go kensei capstone to maintain useful dcs. Thats quite a good package. IMHO. Just some thoughts. Cheers.

80 hp out of 2300 is still peanuts.
between 36 stat point and +6 tomes all around the board give people enough stat points around, even with a 16~18 in str at char creation and level up will not guaranty a 80% chance of melee dc based feats to work in higher level content. not that maters much, thinks that need to be tanked are usually immune to trip and stun anyway.
Honestly? multiclassing 6 levels of paladin (potentially) raises all saves by 20 and gives an insight bonus to str to boost dc's, in other words, this capstone gives no reason to take it, the trade of is gone.
as for skill penalty, a plaemail and towershield give you this:
a hefty -15 to balance (to get back up after being tripped, something dragon bosses do a lot),
-15 jump, (jumping over goons to tank the boss, not to mention the huge amount of Mario stuff in the game),
-15 hide&move silently(i'll skip over this one, not really relevant to a lv 20 fighter)
-15 Tumble(some tanks use this, a lot)
last but definitely not least a -30 to swim(very noticeable).
Don't come with the tried old "why don't you switch armor when dealing with those situations" argument, no party waits for you when you're donning armor, though changing soon, tanks weren't the fastest class around to begin with.
mrr is going to end up much lower, Sev just posted a few days ago that not all sources for prr would also give mrr.
as for class scrutiny, the top players stay away from gimped classes, including other players using them on my server and from what i hear on lamania and 3rd party voice chats, other servers too. Rogues? rarely see m, though they get switched in sometimes by party members to help out in HH , barbs have gone extinct, pure paladin? haven't seen one in 2 years, arties? once in a whille, not often at all,most i see are bards (usually swashbuckling), monckers, shiradi sorcs, cetus builds and pure wizards (wizard 18/rog 2 used to be popular years ago, but they died out i guess). healers? i have a strong evo fvs in guild but that's about it, i rarely meet clerics everybody is self healing these days.
Yes, i get tells by people asking me, why the party leader doesn't let them in, whether he might be afk.... knowing he doesn't let them in because their class doesn't provide the necessary tools to complete the quest faster then dungeonscalling by just leaving the spots open.

[gwonbush]

as for skill penalty, a plaemail and towershield give you this:
a hefty -15 to balance (to get back up after being tripped, something dragon bosses do a lot),
-15 jump, (jumping over goons to tank the boss, not to mention the huge amount of Mario stuff in the game),
-15 hide&move silently(i'll skip over this one, not really relevant to a lv 20 fighter)
-15 Tumble(some tanks use this, a lot)
last but definitely not least a -30 to swim(very noticeable).
Don't come with the tried old "why don't you switch armor when dealing with those situations" argument, no party waits for you when you're donning armor, though changing soon, tanks weren't the fastest class around to begin with.
.

You could at least switch out of your towershield when you have to do movement stuff. It is quick to change and accounts for most of the penalty.

[bbqzor]

between 36 stat point and +6 tomes

Not everyone who uses a capstone has store bought maximum stats. If youre that far along, then yes mutliclass is likely the way to go. Almost nothing in this game thats the "most optimized" is pure, hasnt been that way for a long time. Not sure what your actual complaint is here then. You have too many stat points that more cant possibly help? Sounds like a nice problem.

Honestly? multiclassing ... this capstone gives no reason to take it, the trade of is gone.

Again, no singular capstone is going to hold up against 6 (!) levels of another class. Thats nearly a third of your character building levels. Youre not going to see that kind of power in any single enhancement. None of them are on that scale, and if thats what youre comparing with... again... just go ahead and multiclass. Itll never hold up. Furthermore, when using so many levels, you also have to include the lv18 core as you give that up as well. Im not saying that makes it worth it, only that if youre going to compare, apples to apples, be fair.

as for skill penalty, a plaemail and towershield

Im not even going to mention armor swapping, but I will mention this has absolutely zero to do with fighter. Tons of classes use plate mail and shields. Tons. And there is zero "class levels" you take anywhere which change this for anyone. You either wear armor and eat it or dont. Has nothing to do with a capstone or class choice. As this is the defender thread, its fair to assume the enhancements might assume such things, but I really doubt anyones going to take a capstone because it adds +10 to tumble and swim... not even sure why skills were brought up. Frankly, its just not an issue 99% of the time. If you want to make an actual suggestion, like "the capstone should reduce armor check penalties by 4 on armor and shields" hey cool. Do it! Otherwise, not sure what to say.

mrr is going to end up much lower, Sev just posted a few days ago that not all sources for prr would also give mrr.

The capstone specifically lists both, again this is of no consequence to the capstone. Its in the OP, if you need to check.

as for class scrutiny, the top players stay away from gimped classes, including other players using them

I think such behavior has as much, if not more, to do with the people/pugs encountered than the classes themselves. The top players I know and group with all could care less what class youre on, as long as its built well, you know how to play it, and it has appropriate gear/xp filled out. Exceptions are routinely made for works in progress, as it takes time and effort to get to that place, and theres always something new in the works. Just because its not easy to pug with or something, doesnt mean that a shiny overpowered capstone is going to change that. Sounds like youre already "in" with them, maybe you can be part of the solution and help to change things by giving one spot to a "chance guy" each run and see what turns up. That would help more than any capstone would.

Dont really feel like any more discussion over how multiclassing is "too good" because the devs made all the enhancements hit in lvs 1-5 is really going to get anywhere. If you have any suggestions to make for specific capstone effects, or want to comment on mine, feel free. Think Im done reiterating its not going to come with like half the paladin class progression, or whatever people are saying it doesnt compare to. Cheers.

[lyrecono]

sure, how about compounding some of this into the capstone:

http://paizo.com/prd/classes/fighter.html

You know, from the company that took a large chunk of the artists and customers from WotC after they went WoW in their 4,0.

add a little (perma, no boost) dps to hold agro, look at the swashbucklers enormous defense for insperation.
Lower the skill pen(lets say 5~8?)
add something akin to elegant footwork, a passive that has a 20 % to trip stuff that misses us?


as for the capstone's prr/mrr, 50 is verry low for a build that can reach high numbers without much problems, the +50 just curves off, even with the new formula.

[Scrabbler]

You know, from the company that took a large chunk of the artists and customers from WotC after they went WoW in their 4,0.

Although there is a good bit of leeway for game rules as intellectual property, it generally doesn't fly to suggest copying after another company by name.

[lyrecono]

not copying, just sugesting to look outside of the box once in a while, there is more to a fighter than a punching bag

[Zurrander]

If the devs don't mind taking some ideas form other games, they should consider "Titans Grip" form World of Warcraft, the Necromancer Class form Age of Conan, and the spontanious world events form Rift. I've always felt that its sad that Great games like DDO have to try so hard not to "Copy" ideas form mediocre games like WoW just because they're popular. But allowing Barbs to dual wield Two handed weapons (and still pull off glancing blows) would fix some of the classes problems, and events that force random strangers to work together (like maybe public wilderness areas with random boss fights) could help to bring the community together. The necromancer thing is admittedly just an excuse for me to have a class with 10 plus pets...

[Scrabbler]

"Titans Grip"
...
But allowing Barbs to dual wield Two handed weapons (and still pull off glancing blows) would fix some of the classes problems

Using TWF with THF weapons would be weaker than using regular weapons. Or maybe equal if you had some extra-good named THF weapons... but it wouldn't be a real boost to the class.

1. You can already TWF with weapons that produce glancing blows, Bastard swords. And they don't get glancing blows when you do that.
2. THF weapons go up to 3x crits, while regular weapons go to 4x. Since Barbarians have an enhancement for +2 crit range, ending up at 17-20x4 is a lot better than 17-20x3.

[Nodoze]

Using TWF with THF weapons would be weaker than using regular weapons. Or maybe equal if you had some extra-good named THF weapons... but it wouldn't be a real boost to the class.

1. You can already TWF with weapons that produce glancing blows, Bastard swords. And they don't get glancing blows when you do that.
2. THF weapons go up to 3x crits, while regular weapons go to 4x. Since Barbarians have an enhancement for +2 crit range, ending up at 17-20x4 is a lot better than 17-20x3.

Don't forget Dwarven Axes also as they also get Glancing Blows in S&B & they have a better crit multiplier than Bastard Swords.

[Zurrander]

Using TWF with THF weapons would be weaker than using regular weapons. Or maybe equal if you had some extra-good named THF weapons... but it wouldn't be a real boost to the class.

1. You can already TWF with weapons that produce glancing blows, Bastard swords. And they don't get glancing blows when you do that.
2. THF weapons go up to 3x crits, while regular weapons go to 4x. Since Barbarians have an enhancement for +2 crit range, ending up at 17-20x4 is a lot better than 17-20x3.

Maybe my math is off, but 17-20x3 plus 50% stat mod & glancing blows (extra 50% dam to all mobs) seems better than 17-20x4. But I'll test it.

I'll use Great Axes vs Khopesh vs Heavy Pick (for the x4) for this comparison. "all have +10 stat mod and take 20 swings" (assumes half d for roles)
(khopesh) 1d8 17-20x3 = (4+10)16 + {(4+10)3}4 = 392 Total Damage.
(Heavy Pick) 1d6 18-20x4 = (3+10)17 + {(3+10)4}3 = 377 Total Damage.
(Great Axe) 1d12 18-20x3 = (6+10+"5")17 + {(6+10+"5")3}3 = 546 Total Damage.

This assumes that the Glancing blows crit as often as the regular ones (but the Great axe won without the crits or glancing blows). And it also assumes that the off hand procs are irrelevant (as all of these are heavy weapons, meaning the off hands damage should be proportional to the main hands). And don't forget that higher stats will turn this even more in the favor of two handed weapons. Though, as i said my math could be wrong.

Edit- i removed the glancing blows since they only trigger twice in every combo. Though they would still account for another 136 damage.

[A-O]

Maybe my math is off, but 17-20x3 plus 50% stat mod & glancing blows (extra 50% dam to all mobs) seems better than 17-20x4. But I'll test it.

I'll use Great Axes vs Khopesh vs Heavy Pick (for the x4) for this comparison. "all have +10 stat mod and take 20 swings" (assumes half d for roles)
(khopesh) 1d8 17-20x3 = (4+10)16 + {(4+10)3}4 = 392 Total Damage.
(Heavy Pick) 1d6 18-20x4 = (3+10)17 + {(3+10)4}3 = 377 Total Damage.
(Great Axe) 1d12 18-20x3 = (6+10+"5")17 + {(6+10+"5")3}3 = 546 Total Damage.

This assumes that the Glancing blows crit as often as the regular ones (but the Great axe won without the crits or glancing blows). And it also assumes that the off hand procs are irrelevant (as all of these are heavy weapons, meaning the off hands damage should be proportional to the main hands). And don't forget that higher stats will turn this even more in the favor of two handed weapons. Though, as i said my math could be wrong.

Edit- i removed the glancing blows since they only trigger twice in every combo. Though they would still account for another 136 damage.

Your numbers are off because they assume too little damage and crit range increasing profiles. The more bonus damage, the better criticals will be compared to flat damage. E.g. 1000 damage per swing for 4k crits, vs 10 damage per swing for 40 crits. Seems to be the same, but if you account that the different between GA extra dmg from ability modifier will be a lower number percent wise compared to the total damage dealt, you'll see the difference.

E.g. Let's assume 100 dmg per swing + 30 str modifier + 250% dmg from blitz. That means the LP will deal 325 dmg per hit (non crit), and the GA will deal 362.5.
For 20 hits the LP will deal 15*325 + 4*1300 = 10,075 dmg
For 20 hits the GA will deal 15*325 + 4*1087.5 = 9225 dmg

Add the glancings the the GA is probably ahead, but as you see, increase in damage will favor the weapon with higher crit profile more than the weapon with lower. And a max speced damage build will likely hit for harder than 100 damage per swing.