Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[EllisDee37]

Count me as another vote that fighters shouldn't get self-heals.

As a compromise, I wouldn't object to fighters getting some kind of temp hp mechanic, along the lines of a Life Shield or Bodyfeeder ability. But not self-healing.

[The_Human_Cypher]

I built a warforged stalwart defender that fought with a maul and no shield (stun / bludgeoning build). These changes remove the one issue I had with that build in that the stalwart defender is no longer dependent on a shield to take full advantage of the tree.

[XodousRoC]

Ganak, Stop that. Fighter's should not be able to self heal (outside of Pots & Scrolls). They are not Divines, their not even casters. Giving fighters the ability to self heal would completely invalidate the idea of Paladins (you know, those self healing fighter dudes). IF you want self healing without loosing much fighting ability then multiclass a few Cleric/Fav levels or play a Paladin/Bard/Druid or just get enough UMD to use heal scrolls.

I don't want to agree here (I put a LOT of emphasis on being self-sufficient)...but I do agree... The separation of Paladin and Fighter lies in fighter's superior general utility in melee combat and Paladin's superior survivabilty (a la self healing). I HATE that fighters are so dependent on others, but I absolutely also believe they SHOULD be for their healing (outside of pots, scrolls, wands, etc). The only way I'd agree with a fighter having any kind of self heal would have to be a form of aberration, demonic, or vampiric knight. We don't have those, so...

*I hate myself for agreeing here, but I'd feel dishonest if I did not*

[maddong]

I think fighters need to eventually get +1 crit mult as well.
They need all the + tactics they lost in the enhancement revamp.
They need a mass stunning blow like bards.

So paladins self healing and evil focus vs fighters tactics.

[HatsuharuZ]

I respect that Ganak has an opinion 180 degrees in the other direction of mine. Ftrs, Barbarians, and Rogues have no self heal, and that's how it should remain. There are many options available to mitigate this already--outside of their inherent abilities.

I support new/improved healing potions, better hireling AI, and most of LFMs, but not fighter self-heal.

I support all this, and my non-spellcaster care about having innate self-healing as long as he can get significantly better damage mitigation than the spellcaster next to him.

[Nascoe]

Count me as another vote that fighters shouldn't get self-heals.

As a compromise, I wouldn't object to fighters getting some kind of temp hp mechanic, along the lines of a Life Shield or Bodyfeeder ability. But not self-healing.

Yes, something like life shield, bodyfeeder or feeding triggered by either being attacked, hit or hitting something yourself feels like a good addition to the fighter defender tree.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

you have not made playing a stalwart defender any more appealing whatsoever.

this trees status as a defensive supplement to pure kenseis has been officially cemented. why does it exist? just take the monk out of kensei (the right side of that tree if you werent sure) and put the not awful parts of stalwart into kensei. simple, effective, straightforward, not weaksauce.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Ganak, Stop that. Fighter's should not be able to self heal (outside of Pots & Scrolls). They are not Divines, their not even casters. Giving fighters the ability to self heal would completely invalidate the idea of Paladins (you know, those self healing fighter dudes). IF you want self healing without loosing much fighting ability then multiclass a few Cleric/Fav levels or play a Paladin/Bard/Druid or just get enough UMD to use heal scrolls.

I respect that Ganak has an opinion 180 degrees in the other direction of mine. Ftrs, Barbarians, and Rogues have no self heal, and that's how it should remain. There are many options available to mitigate this already--outside of their inherent abilities.

I support new/improved healing potions, better hireling AI, and most of LFMs, but not fighter self-heal.

Count me as another vote that fighters shouldn't get self-heals.

As a compromise, I wouldn't object to fighters getting some kind of temp hp mechanic, along the lines of a Life Shield or Bodyfeeder ability. But not self-healing.

I don't want to agree here (I put a LOT of emphasis on being self-sufficient)...but I do agree... The separation of Paladin and Fighter lies in fighter's superior general utility in melee combat and Paladin's superior survivabilty (a la self healing). I HATE that fighters are so dependent on others, but I absolutely also believe they SHOULD be for their healing (outside of pots, scrolls, wands, etc). The only way I'd agree with a fighter having any kind of self heal would have to be a form of aberration, demonic, or vampiric knight. We don't have those, so...

*I hate myself for agreeing here, but I'd feel dishonest if I did not*

so paladins deserve, need, require a buff to their dps, which in the form of holy sword is more powerful than keen edge (fighters) and critical rage (barbarians), and they are allowed to self heal, but not fighters or barbarians. even though their dps will not outperform paladin dps.

yea thats totally frickin fair. either fighters self heal or paladins dont dps. there is no middle ground. and do not even mention bladeforged to me because that pigeon holes fighters into a certain obvious p2w race that comes with the magnificent handicap of a paladin level and lawful good alignment, which basically cost money or a lot of time/effort to get rid of. not a fair solution so just dont bring it up.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Please consider adding some element of self heal. Perhaps not burst healing, but perhaps a regen type of healing.

Really? Want heal amp? Get it somewhere else

[lyrecono]

Hmmm, then I misspoke.

Armor will give a specific amount of MRR as listed in the dev diary.
For itemization, any Sheltering items will give MRR in equal amounts to PRR.

We are changing the Defender trees to include MRR as well.

Beyond that we are not adding MRR universally. As time goes on and we rebalance trees we might find specific trees need more MRR but it will not necessarily be added as part of the upcoming patch unless you see it in the design/patch notes.

Sev~

thank you for clearing that up, with that, i have a few questions about the fighter enhancement revamp/update

half the enhancements in there (notebly the armor expertise and the stalwart defense mastery) are downright useless, how are we supposed to get the higher lv enhancents, by putting them in low rate ones?
not that that realy matters, the tier 5 enhancents are not helping you to tank all that much, let alone the capstone, how would one justify the fighter capstone to:

The Swashbuckler (already huge ref save) get evasion.

The paladins new capstone?

The arcanotechnician's +2 Intelligence and +5 Spellcraft

The ocult slayer (barb): You gain a bonus to your Spell Resistance equal to your Constitution score

The sorcs elemental forms.

The pale master: +2 intelligence and deathblock. when you have a Shroud toggle active, receive 5% more healing from Negative Energy

the list goes on, the fighters gets a clicky to boost himself for 20 sec? seems rather underwhelming.
thus far i don't see a reason to go beyond 6 levels of fighter in a tank build and that's mostly for the feats, multiclassing into cleric/ fvs for heals, any other class for some dps.
Now we know that BaB doesn't add to mrr there is no reason to multiclass with a full base attack class (usually a melee one) either. i think the swashbuckler comes ahead in dps(thus holding agro) and survivability. Due to swf not working for tanks. i really hope the new prestige line will fix that (with a proper capstone)

[XodousRoC]

so paladins deserve, need, require a buff to their dps, which in the form of holy sword is more powerful than keen edge (fighters) and critical rage (barbarians), and they are allowed to self heal, but not fighters or barbarians. even though their dps will not outperform paladin dps.

yea thats totally frickin fair. either fighters self heal or paladins dont dps. there is no middle ground. and do not even mention bladeforged to me because that pigeon holes fighters into a certain obvious p2w race that comes with the magnificent handicap of a paladin level and lawful good alignment, which basically cost money or a lot of time/effort to get rid of. not a fair solution so just dont bring it up.

I don't disagree here about fighters needing love. They do. They are getting a similar treatment here to Pally *outside that wonderful spell, Holy Sword*. I'm serious. Peruse the Defender proposal. Not. Good. The KOTC line got enough better with the enhancement cleaves (so long as they function with Momentum Swing) that in addition to Holy Sword and lowered costs in Defender, they should be a very good DPS option for Paladin players. Where we have it wrong right now isn't that Pally is gaining an awesome spell, or that fighters can't self heal (they shouldn't...I'm sorry, but no blue bar here...).

We need better healing potion options, available through in-game means. Fighters will benefit every bit as much from the armor changes as Paladin. What they need is better mitigation combined with better in-game sources of healing. It's time to drop the ridiculous side-effects from SF pots. They are the only Heal pot in-game, and the grind to get them is already tough enough.Dropping the side-effects (and hopefully increasing stack size...honestly, they already cost enough) would suddenly give fighters a source of healing in-game. Even that isn't enough with hit point totals getting so large, but it's a start. Better healing sources in-game combined with better mitigation will aid fighters tremendously.

You are also correct about fighter DPS. I use the monksai (kensai) tree because my monk has an SoS. Despite that, I feel that monk stance benes should be moved back to the cores, making them level dependent, and they should be removed from the FIGHTER tree. The kensai tree should include a crit multiplier without needing a spell because that's how they roll. They are masters of their chosen blade. Make their tree reflect that. It seems odd to me that bards can stack crit range on top of increasing it and their crit mod, and kensai get all of a static +1 range in a tier 5 enhancement.

I do not, and will not, agree with fighters having innate healing. I do, and will, support the idea of better in-game healing sources, the coming armor changes, and fixing the fighter trees to reflect their martial superiority. They shouldn't need to be Paladins (14 levels for the Holy Sword spell) splashed with fighter to BE fighters! Paladins gain martial prowess through the beneficence of their diety; that's powerful. Kensai are students of their chosen weapon, and their tree should include innate crit range AND mod to reflect their investment in martial supremacy. That would make fighter powerful.

[bbqzor]

so paladins deserve, need, require a buff to their dps, which in the form of holy sword is more powerful than keen edge (fighters) and critical rage (barbarians), and they are allowed to self heal, but not fighters or barbarians. even though their dps will not outperform paladin dps.

Firstly, anyone can self heal at 20+. Just slot a mana aug and twist cocoon and have a day. Before then, having cure serious wounds isnt exactly the means to "easily self heal" relative to anyone who can choose to scroll or wand with umd, so this isnt exactly a huge disparity.

Second, a fighter most definitely should do more dps than a paladin. They have a ton of dps enhancements and 11 bonus feats to bring to bear. Even if you say "oh it wont be more" ok, without getting into specific builds fine I suppose, but it will be comparable. If it isnt, and you had all those feats and enhancements to use, maybe theres another adjustment to be made instead.

the fighters gets a clicky to boost himself for 20 sec? seems rather underwhelming.

I think the passive +4 con and +2 tactics is the relevant part. The clicky is occasionally useful but people will be taking it for the passive bumps Im sure.

We need better healing potion options, available through in-game means. It's time to drop the ridiculous side-effects from SF pots. They are the only Heal pot in-game, and the grind to get them is already tough enough.Dropping the side-effects (and hopefully increasing stack size...honestly, they already cost enough) would suddenly give fighters a source of healing in-game.

Yes. Im tired of getting random small healing potions from daily dice rolls, as if 1-2 potions is even going to be useful. Meanwhile, silver flame doesnt stack past 10 and still has the silly cripple effect. The SF pots should have the cripple/slow effects removed at a minimum, preferably all the penalties. These arent "invincible mode" anymore, its more like "the same percentage of heal cure serious pots used to be, back in the day". Back when they were ml5 and the game only went to 10, it was like 5-10 of these and you were gtg! Now, with 1k hps, SF is in the same boat. Time for an update to bring it in line with mudflation and take some of the irritation off your playerbase, please.

[maddong]

Speaking on paladin vs fighter....

Holy sword should only give the +1 crit mult at paladin 20.
Then fighters should get +1 crit mult at 20.

As it is I've been convinced 14 pal/6 monk ninja spy ignoring most paladin enh will be the way to go in the next update.

[Bingobong]

so paladins deserve, need, require a buff to their dps, which in the form of holy sword is more powerful than keen edge (fighters) and critical rage (barbarians), and they are allowed to self heal, but not fighters or barbarians. even though their dps will not outperform paladin dps.

^This.

I can't believe they made Paladin a super class after all this talk of balance. Why play fighter when you can play Paly who is actually as good or better at fighting then a fighter, can tank better (better PRR/MRR/saves) AND have powerful enough healing to not only self-heal but to be a support healer in a group. Your fighter is better going 14 paly / 6 fighter and still have lots of feats. Or 14 Paly / 4 fighter / 2 monk if you want evasion to take full advantage of the saves.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I don't disagree here about fighters needing love. They do. They are getting a similar treatment here to Pally *outside that wonderful spell, Holy Sword*. I'm serious. Peruse the Defender proposal. Not. Good. The KOTC line got enough better with the enhancement cleaves (so long as they function with Momentum Swing) that in addition to Holy Sword and lowered costs in Defender, they should be a very good DPS option for Paladin players. Where we have it wrong right now isn't that Pally is gaining an awesome spell, or that fighters can't self heal (they shouldn't...I'm sorry, but no blue bar here...).

We need better healing potion options, available through in-game means. Fighters will benefit every bit as much from the armor changes as Paladin. What they need is better mitigation combined with better in-game sources of healing. It's time to drop the ridiculous side-effects from SF pots. They are the only Heal pot in-game, and the grind to get them is already tough enough.Dropping the side-effects (and hopefully increasing stack size...honestly, they already cost enough) would suddenly give fighters a source of healing in-game. Even that isn't enough with hit point totals getting so large, but it's a start. Better healing sources in-game combined with better mitigation will aid fighters tremendously.

You are also correct about fighter DPS. I use the monksai (kensai) tree because my monk has an SoS. Despite that, I feel that monk stance benes should be moved back to the cores, making them level dependent, and they should be removed from the FIGHTER tree. The kensai tree should include a crit multiplier without needing a spell because that's how they roll. They are masters of their chosen blade. Make their tree reflect that. It seems odd to me that bards can stack crit range on top of increasing it and their crit mod, and kensai get all of a static +1 range in a tier 5 enhancement.

I do not, and will not, agree with fighters having innate healing. I do, and will, support the idea of better in-game healing sources, the coming armor changes, and fixing the fighter trees to reflect their martial superiority. They shouldn't need to be Paladins (14 levels for the Holy Sword spell) splashed with fighter to BE fighters! Paladins gain martial prowess through the beneficence of their diety; that's powerful. Kensai are students of their chosen weapon, and their tree should include innate crit range AND mod to reflect their investment in martial supremacy. That would make fighter powerful.

i dont want fighters to have a blue bar either, i was using hyperbole to emphasize the point. but paladins are getting a dps buff that is clearly superior to a main attraction of monksai (this is very appropriate) while already enjoying significant defensive benefits.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Firstly, anyone can self heal at 20+. Just slot a mana aug and twist cocoon and have a day. Before then, having cure serious wounds isnt exactly the means to "easily self heal" relative to anyone who can choose to scroll or wand with umd, so this isnt exactly a huge disparity.

Second, a fighter most definitely should do more dps than a paladin. They have a ton of dps enhancements and 11 bonus feats to bring to bear. Even if you say "oh it wont be more" ok, without getting into specific builds fine I suppose, but it will be comparable. If it isnt, and you had all those feats and enhancements to use, maybe theres another adjustment to be made instead.

it is pretty easy for anyone on any build to self heal at 20+, but what about two new players whove just hit 20 for the first time, ones a pure pally and ones a pure fighter. whos gonna die more? it wont be so easy for a total noob who doesnt know much about the game to learn about and acquire a mana augment and twist cocoon. theres a decent amount of effort involved in grinding the destinies and fate points there too.

fighters wont do more dps once holy sword comes out. and those magical 11 feats can only be spent on so many dps enhancements. weapon focus feats only increase to hit by +1 each (not needed, not worth a feat). weapon spec only increases dmg by +1 per feat, and theres only two or three of them (you can get more dmg from 1ap enhancements, really a whole feat for +1 dmg? needs an update). what else is there for a fighter to spend feats on to directly increase damage? imp sunder, quickdraw, fighting style feats, stunning blow, cleaves, ranged feats. there is no reason that a paladin cant get the main dps increasing feats from that list, while at best a fighter gets most of them, and its not even a decisive dps advantage. stunning blow requires serious build and gear investment. imp sunder only helps on bosses and high fort enemies, not orcs or humans or kobolds, even though its a big buff on appropriate enemies. a paladin will take fighting style feats anyway. theyll either take cleaves or get the new pally cleaves, no advantage for fighters there either. paladins can definitely fit quickdraw. so the feat advantage fighters have nets them versatility and burst dps. melee dps is still lacking compared to this holy sword abomination.

[Ayseifn]

i dont want fighters to have a blue bar either, i was using hyperbole to emphasize the point. but paladins are getting a dps buff that is clearly superior to a main attraction of monksai (this is very appropriate) while already enjoying significant defensive benefits.

What are the defensive benefits compared to a monksai though? Both can heal fine with recon SLA, both can have divine grace.

How will you fit Manyshot, Shadowfade and have a viable stun on a 14 paladin/x? Don't get me wrong stunning blow is kind of weak and I'd like to see it buffed it does help defensively though, the claims that paladins have better defence than all other melees are somewhat overblown.

Throw up some builds that make centred kenseis and some of the popular bard builds look weak and you might gain some agreement from me but so far I haven't really seen anything too game breaking out of the paladin changes. Also remember that barbarians are next for buffs, so 12 fighter/5 barb/3 bard or something like it might be the thing that finally takes the melee DPS crown away from druids and since paladins can't take levels in druid, bard or barb they need to be strong just like bards are now because of their lack of ability to splash monk.

[Zurrander]

I'm all in favor of fighters getting more Tactical Bonuses/Tactical Feats to work with (since tactic are what they do best). But to suggest that Pally self healing (Which is worst than any other self healer, save the Ranger) and a single spell are going to break the fighter is just silly. The new Holy Sword is looking to be a pretty sweet spell, but its still far from game breaking (it also uses the pally's very limited SP, is dispellable and requires 14 levels). Now, that being said the Fighter class could use some love, maybe the devs could add Perfect weapon specialization & make Kensei Comparable to Swashbuckler (in a later update of course)? But as of this update fighters still stand superior to paladins in terms of Melee prowess.

------Pally vs Fighter------
Stats-4 min vs 2 min (Pally's have to focus on every stat that fighters need, plus Wisdom & Charisma)
Crits- Holy Sword (+1 mult/+1 range)buff vs Keen Edge (+1 Range) & A Good Death (+1 Mult)tac
Double Strike- Zeal (10%)buff vs Alacrity (15%)
St Boost- Divine Might vs Power Surge (Pally's win this one, but only by way of High Charisma)

So their we have it, with the exception of the Pally's temp mechanics "LOH/Smite Evil" Fighters are superior in every way (and those are balanced out by the extra feats + tower shields). And even when pally's get within range of fighters it's only temporary/despellable Buffs that get them there. So yes, both classes have strengths and weaknesses but there is no way that an unbuffed pally could hold a candle to a fighter, and a buffed pally still can't quite match one. Also, do we need to compare the Fighter ED vs the Paladin ED (which fighters get more benefit from both)? I didn't think so.

[EllisDee37]

I'm all in favor of fighters getting more Tactical Bonuses/Tactical Feats to work with (since tactic are what they do best). But to suggest that Pally self healing (Which is worst than any other self healer, save the Ranger) and a single spell are going to break the fighter is just silly. The new Holy Sword is looking to be a pretty sweet spell, but its still far from game breaking (it also uses the pally's very limited SP, is dispellable and requires 14 levels). Now, that being said the Fighter class could use some love, maybe the devs could add Perfect weapon specialization & make Kensei Comparable to Swashbuckler (in a later update of course)? But as of this update fighters still stand superior to paladins in terms of Melee prowess.

------Pally vs Fighter------
Stats-4 min vs 2 min (Pally's have to focus on every stat that fighters need, plus Wisdom & Charisma)
Crits- Holy Sword (+1 mult/+1 range)buff vs Keen Edge (+1 Range) & A Good Death (+1 Mult)tac
Double Strike- Zeal (10%)buff vs Alacrity (15%)
St Boost- Divine Might vs Power Surge (Pally's win this one, but only by way of High Charisma)

So their we have it, with the exception of the Pally's temp mechanics "LOH/Smite Evil" Fighters are superior in every way (and those are balanced out by the extra feats + tower shields). And even when pally's get within range of fighters it's only temporary/despellable Buffs that get them there. So yes, both classes have strengths and weaknesses but there is no way that an unbuffed pally could hold a candle to a fighter, and a buffed pally still can't quite match one. Also, do we need to compare the Fighter ED vs the Paladin ED (which fighters get more benefit from both)? I didn't think so.

Interesting comparison. I agree.

Let's never forget that fighters get around a dozen 30% haste boosts per rest, which works out to four solid minutes of +30% attack speed per shrine.

[Scrabbler]

The new Holy Sword is looking to be a pretty sweet spell, but its still far from game breaking (it also uses the pally's very limited SP, is dispellable and requires 14 levels).

What makes you think that Holy Sword is dispellable, or costs noticeable spellpoints?

"Not game breaking" is a depressingly low bar.

Crits- Holy Sword (+1 mult/+1 range)buff vs Keen Edge (+1 Range) & A Good Death (+1 Mult)tac

Ha ha what, Good Death? You put Good Death up against Holy Sword, seriously? How many times can I Good Death per minute?

Double Strike- Zeal (10%)buff vs Alacrity (15%)

No Alacrity in Heroic levels.

Let's never forget that fighters get around a dozen 30% haste boosts per rest, which works out to four solid minutes of +30% attack speed per shrine.

Other people who get Haste Boost include Pal18/Fig2 and Pal18/Rog2.