Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[tiamat1985]

Greetings.
[*]5 AP, Ftr3: (Moved to Tier 2) Stalwart Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance, 10 Magical Resistance, a 50% bonus to threat generation, and are immune to rage effects. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)[*]10 AP, Ftr6: (Moved to Tier 3) Overbalance: Your shields gain On Vorpal: Knock an opponent to the ground.

Sev~

Please don't do this, this way splashes in fighter or Paladin classes will become too much powerful. Stalwart Defence is a very powerful stance for just 3 level splash and you are removing the movement penalty too.

Greetings.
[*]Block and Cut: Melee Attack: Performs a melee attack with your main hand weapon that deals (+1/+2/+3)[W]. On Damage: You gain a (10/15/25)% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (No longer requires shield)

Sev~

This is a nonsense... Block and Cut needs "Block"! Please rename that at least.
You get that, with the actual cooldown (20s), this enhancement is a +25% doublestrike half of the time right?

[Varinon]

It is incredibly goofy that the Fighter in Full Plate and Tower Shield will have a passively better running speed than a Kensei fighter in robes, or a Ranger, or a Rogue.

Look at the history! This tree is based on D&D 3.5 Dwarven Defender, which gave you defensive bonuses in exchange for the stance dropping your speed to zero. DDO's adaptation changed that to merely a 10% speed reduction. Then they added a way to remove the speed reduction at a higher tier.

But now you're removing the speed reduction as soon as you get the stance- and then removing it again in tier 4, changing the penalty into a bonus. No, Defender should not be better at long-distance running.

D&D and DDO are two separate entities. It is loosely based on D&D, but giving them the move speed penalty was hurting this quite a bit. In D&D, you are playing a roleplaying-strategy game. You let your tank take damage, because you cannot. Set up the tanks in doorways or places they don't need to move, dwarven defender was great at that.

But DDO is not like that, in DDO the tank needs to run ahead and hit the monsters first, otherwise they're all going to ignore him and go kill that archer that just shot them. In that case, the tank is useless, the archer has aggro and is kiting the mobs, and the tank is doubly useless because he's moving too slow to even hit the kited mobs. This is a good change.

[Aziraphale88]

It is incredibly goofy that the Fighter in Full Plate and Tower Shield will have a passively better running speed than a Kensei fighter in robes, or a Ranger, or a Rogue.

Look at the history! This tree is based on D&D 3.5 Dwarven Defender, which gave you defensive bonuses in exchange for the stance dropping your speed to zero. DDO's adaptation changed that to merely a 10% speed reduction. Then they added a way to remove the speed reduction at a higher tier.

But now you're removing the speed reduction as soon as you get the stance- and then removing it again in tier 4, changing the penalty into a bonus. No, Defender should not be better at long-distance running.

The games are not the same. Besides it is actually just unfun to move slower in a videogame. I, personally, love that they are including these little speed boosts in so many of the re-done enhancement trees. Game or flavor balance aside, again, it is NOT FUN to sluggishly move everywhere.

[Scrabbler]

in DDO the tank needs to run ahead and hit the monsters first, otherwise they're all going to ignore him and go kill that archer that just shot them. In that case, the tank is useless, the archer has aggro and is kiting the mobs

If the players want the Tank to be travelling in the front of the group to hit the monsters first, they can already achieve that by having the other players slow down.

If they don't want to slow down, fine, but the Defender builds shouldn't be given bonus speed so that can run in front even when the rest of the party is racing ahead too. If it's necessary for tank builds to get aggro even when the teammates are trying pretty hard to get it first, then tanks should be given some other long-range aggro pull ability.

10% more movement speed wouldn't be enough to let you run ahead of arrows, Magic Missiles, and Abundant Steps anyhow.

Besides it is actually just unfun to move slower in a videogame. I, personally, love that they are including these little speed boosts in so many of the re-done enhancement trees. Game or flavor balance aside, again, it is NOT FUN to sluggishly move everywhere.

If it's a good idea for players to move faster, then they should simply make players move faster (like giving everyone a +1% running speed per level). Putting lots of running speed enhancements in lots of trees isn't the way, especially when it creates weird situations like the Fullplate + Tower Shield Fighter running faster than the Kensei, Tempest, or Acrobat.

[Scrabbler]

It is rolled into the Vanguard tree. We didn't want Vanguard builds to be forced to dip into this tree for that 15% chance of a secondary shield bash.

Huh, why would you consider it a bad thing if Vanguard builds are attracted to something in tier 2 of Defender? The majority of pure-class build already take a tier 2 in all 3 trees.

For example, take a survey of Bard builds and look at how many have tier 2 in Swashbuckler.

[Aziraphale88]

I completely agree with 1% movement speed per level.

But I'll also take what I can get and not complain about free bonuses that don't really hurt anything.

[Seikojin]

If the players want the Tank to be travelling in the front of the group to hit the monsters first, they can already achieve that by having the other players slow down.

If they don't want to slow down, fine, but the Defender builds shouldn't be given bonus speed so that can run in front even when the rest of the party is racing ahead too. If it's necessary for tank builds to get aggro even when the teammates are trying pretty hard to get it first, then tanks should be given some other long-range aggro pull ability.

10% more movement speed wouldn't be enough to let you run ahead of arrows, Magic Missiles, and Abundant Steps anyhow.


If it's a good idea for players to move faster, then they should simply make players move faster (like giving everyone a +1% running speed per level). Putting lots of running speed enhancements in lots of trees isn't the way, especially when it creates weird situations like the Fullplate + Tower Shield Fighter running faster than the Kensei, Tempest, or Acrobat.

Forcing other players to play your way is not the future for ddo. We have to work well as a group with a variety of playstyles. Giving them a speed boost while in stance just allows that without social rule mongering in game.

[Seikojin]

I completely agree with 1% movement speed per level.

But I'll also take what I can get and not complain about free bonuses that don't really hurt anything.

This.

And as so far, looks good, seems to be a definite movement in the right direction. Easier to laterally add in offensive options since many of the core enhancements chosen no longer suck all our ap.

[Scrabbler]

Forcing other players to play your way is not the future for ddo.

Yeah, that was my point.

Giving them a speed boost while in stance just allows that

10% running speed for a Defender is insufficient to achieve that result. Instead, it causes other results.

[Lighti]

Paladins get a potential +100% Bonus to AC from there Heavy Armour and Shield from having:

Tier 2 & 3

Reinforced Defenses: Multiselector:
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from wearing heavy armor is increased by (15/30/50)%. (This benefit also applies to Warforged with Adamantine Body.)
Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by (15/30/50)%.

as well as

Tier 4 & 5

Reinforced Defense: Improves the Armor Class bonuses you receive from shields or armor.
Choose One:
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by 15%/30%/50%.
Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by 15%/30%/50%.

But fighters only get the Tier 4 & 5 aspect and so 50% less?
That doesn't really seem fair to me.

Also you have 6 abilities listed at Tier 4, last i checked there were only 5 spots

[Zurrander]

This is a typo. I believe that Sev intends to change Paladins "Reinforced Defense" to Tier 2-3 and remove the Tier 4-5 enhancements (As well as sneaking in the "wearing heavy armor" part). Though, if reason prevails Paladin & Fighter Reinforced Defense will both stay at Tier 4-5 and Include all Armors (not just Heavy).

[Monkey_Archer]

Paladins get a potential +100% Bonus to AC from there Heavy Armour and Shield from having:

Tier 2 & 3

Reinforced Defenses: Multiselector:
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from wearing heavy armor is increased by (15/30/50)%. (This benefit also applies to Warforged with Adamantine Body.)
Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by (15/30/50)%.

as well as

Tier 4 & 5

Reinforced Defense: Improves the Armor Class bonuses you receive from shields or armor.
Choose One:
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by 15%/30%/50%.
Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by 15%/30%/50%.

But fighters only get the Tier 4 & 5 aspect and so 50% less?
That doesn't really seem fair to me.

Also you have 6 abilities listed at Tier 4, last i checked there were only 5 spots

Stacking AC bonuses from stalwart and sacred is probably still the biggest problem with these trees. Not only is it unfair to tier 5 stalwart fighters (or pure paladins who cant take any stalwart bonuses), but its just bad design to force ac builds into two nearly identical trees in the first place.

[Wongar]

It is rolled into the Vanguard tree. We didn't want Vanguard builds to be forced to dip into this tree for that 15% chance of a secondary shield bash.

Sev~

Understood and agree that adding to Vanguard makes sense.

Any chance to leave it in this one as well (non-stacking) so defenders are not forced to dip into the Vanguard tree?

On that same train of thought, way not move the core Vorpal knockdown to Vanguard as well? It only helps shield users and it seems that much of this tree is being set up to no longer require a shield so having a shield only core seems a little out of place.

[maddong]

I would move stance back to core 6 since fighters already are used for splashing. I would keep the speed pen at 6 but remove it at core 12.

I would buff reprisal:
On attacked gain stacking +1 damage for 6 seconds. Stacks up to 3/6/10 times. This is competing with tier 5 kensei after all...!

[CaptainSpacePony]

the tree looks a bit thin on lower levels. some more abilities to select from would be nice. on the other hand, some things are still underwhelming. T2 Armor Expertise - meh is meh. +3 ac for 3 AP? Please add something interesting in T3.

T2 Armor Expertise: Armor you equip gains +1/+2/+3 to its Enhancement Bonus, armor check penalty is decreased by 1/2/3, arcane spell failure for using scrolls is reduced by 5/10/15.

T3 new Multiselector
* Your shield is now a spellcasting implement
* Your medium/heavy armor is now a spellcasting implement

no No NO! Fighters should not be granted spell points, spell power, or anything else spelly-welly. For those sorts of things look to Eldritch Knights or some other tree in a DIFFERENT class.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Stance at Ftr 3? That's OP.

Swift defense doesn't belong. Removing the movement penalty was enough. Heavily armored types should not be outrunning the pajama platoon.

Stand fast: I HATE the wording "while feared". Common usage means that when feared, something else is afraid of you, not that you're scared. Should be "affected by fear" or something similar, assuming you can't just say "afraid".

[Nandos]

Please fix the long standing bug in the tier 2 ability Armor Expertise. It requires level 12 to be able to purchase.

Thanks

[Severlin]

Also you have 6 abilities listed at Tier 4, last i checked there were only 5 spots

Fixed. One of the enhancements somehow drifted up.

Sev~

[Zurrander]

Sev - is the Paladin tier 2-3 Reinforced Defense and the exclusion of Light & Med Armor for "Reinforced Armor" a Typo? Or is this intentional? Because it would be unfair for Paladins to get the same ability two tiers lower than Fighters, and It would be unfair for fighters to get any armor type while paladins are restricted to heavy. ( I would suggest keeping the Fighter version of Reinforced Defense for Both classes, with includes allowing it to stack with Unyielding Sentinel's Shield Boost.)

[Severlin]

Please fix the long standing bug in the tier 2 ability Armor Expertise. It requires level 12 to be able to purchase.

Thanks

Should be fixed when this goes up to Lamania.

Sev~