Paladin: Sacred Defender Changes

[Krelar]

the thread is old, but i think the threat still works as it's explained there. Look for eladrin's post.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...scussion/page2

Being old is the problem.

Armor piercing was officially announced as supossed to stack with different values but it no longer does and there was no announcement about it. For all we know threat got the same treatment.

[toapat]

Are we sure they stack?

absolutely, i would be incapable of holding aggro off of a lvl 1 commoner with Chickent Infested and Dirt Farmer otherwise on my main. i typically pull aggro before even the second stack of stand against the tide, and 160% threat wouldnt let me pull off of anyone else.

The only thing im not certain is whether Divine Righteousness is the same type of sacred bonus as Intolerant blows, because i seem to also benefit from having it up

the thing that has to be noted, however, is that only Sacred and Incite will stack unlike values of threat gen. Dodge was changed from an AC bonus to a percentile ignore chance, which is why it doesnt stack, while for armor piercing, i dont even know of anywhere you can get it that isnt an armorslot or Treason

[harry-pancreas]

absolutely, i would be incapable of holding aggro off of a lvl 1 commoner with Chickent Infested and Dirt Farmer otherwise on my main. i typically pull aggro before even the second stack of stand against the tide, and 160% threat wouldnt let me pull off of anyone else.

The only thing im not certain is whether Divine Righteousness is the same type of sacred bonus as Intolerant blows, because i seem to also benefit from having it up

the thing that has to be noted, however, is that only Sacred and Incite will stack unlike values of threat gen. Dodge was changed from an AC bonus to a percentile ignore chance, which is why it doesnt stack, while for armor piercing, i dont even know of anywhere you can get it that isnt an armorslot or Treason

stack or not, Div. Righteousness is 100% bonus and intolerant blows 200% (used to be 1k iirc), so it will go up, no matter if it stacks or not.

[Scrabbler]

stack or not, Div. Righteousness is 100% bonus and intolerant blows 200% (used to be 1k iirc), so it will go up, no matter if it stacks or not.

Since Unyielding Sentinel is based on Paladin, it is undesirable that a Fighter Stalwart Defender gets more benefit from Intolerant Blows than a Paladin Sacred Defender does.

[Alcedes]

AP cost of Saves Boost changed to 1/1/1.
Doesn't this share a cooldown with other MUCH more useful boosts? And considering paladins have insane saves to begin with.../sigh
How about replacing this with some kind of boost to either DPS, Intimidate, or Incite?

AP cost of Defense Boost changed to 1/1/1.
Doesnt this share a cooldown with other MUCH more useful boosts? Please see above. ^^

AP cost of Reinforced Defense changed to 1/1/1 both times you can take it.
Great! Free up 3AP

AP cost of Harbored by Light changed to 1/1/1.
Again, great! Free up 3AP...
But what is with all this "active blocking" stuff? Paladin's have a hard enough time building aggro due to lack of DPS..they cant afford to "actively block"

1 AP: Holy Bastion: You gain +1 Hit Point and 1 Positive Energy Spell Power for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Sacred Defender Core Ability you possess grants +2% Fortification.
Could fit some intim in here. I'd rather 5 more Intim over the 10% fort.

5 AP, Pal3: Sacred Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance and Magical Resistance and a 50% bonus to threat generation. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)
Excellent changes! Though, Intim could fit here if not else where!

10 AP, Pal6: Divine Righteousness: Channel Divinity: You gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma score and a 100% Sacred bonus to threat generation for 60 seconds.
Seriously, a tank with 1500-2500 HP doesn't need an extra 30-40 temp HP.
And 100% Sacred Bonus to Threat? So what really it is +25% Threat since the stance already grants 75%, correct?

]20 AP, Pal12: Redemption: The following spells are added to the Paladin spell list: Level 2: Raise Dead Level 3: Resurrection Level 4: True Resurrection.
Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating.
I absolutely, positively DESPISE this as a Core. PLEASE remove this and drop it in the tree else where. Most Paladins have res clickies already and quite honestly, as a core ability, i feel cheated by it. More Incite. More intim. More DPS. TANK stuff please.

30 AP, Pal18: Glorious Stand: Channel Divinity: For a short duration you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'.
This does not scale into epic well. DR20/epic is something that basically every tank already has on their gear some where.

41 AP, Pal20: Eternal Defender: Passive: You gain +2 Charisma and grants a Sacred bonus that increases your range of unconsciousness by your Charisma score. (This bonus updates once per minute.) Toggle: While Eternal Defender is active, if you drop below 0 hit points, two uses of Lay on Hands and Turn Undead are immediately expended and you receive a reactive heal for 250 points of Positive Energy healing. Passive: You gain 10 Physical Resist Rating and 10 Magical Resist Rating.
Seriously? This is the capstone? Extend the range of unconsciousness by 30 or 40? And then consume 4 charges??? Turbine, you can do better. MUCH better than this.

Item Defense: You have a (25/50/75)% chance to negate potential item wear.
Again, does anyone actually use this?

Extra Lay on Hands: You gain +(1/2/3) uses of Lay on Hands.
Not much to say here.

Improved Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
Resilient Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(1/2/3) Sacred bonus to all Saving Throws.
Durable Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(5/10/15) Sacred bonus to Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resist Rating.
Inciting Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Sacred bonus to melee threat generation.
Only real complaint here is the Sacred Bonus to threat generation that will not be useful thanks to Divine Righteousness..and im not sure paladins really need +3 saves as much as they need a bit more DPS or Intim

Sacred Armor Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Maximum Dexterity Bonus when wearing Armor.
+3 AC isnt what it use to be...Just sayin.

Saves Boost: Activate to gain a (+2/+4/+6) Action Boost bonus to all Saving Throws for 20 seconds. While under this effect you do not automatically fail saving throws on a roll of a natural 1.
With the changes to tanking, and the "tank evasion" this becomes an even less useful sink of AP. And it was rarely ever used to begin with.

Instinctive Defense: You take 5% less extra damage when struck while helpless.
This was not really needed to begin with...That being said, I certainly hope that the other 2 ranks were left off of your list erroneously or nobody will take this ever.

Bulwark Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/3/5) Armor Class.
5 Ac is not worth 3AP.

Sacred Shield Mastery: +(5%/10%/15%) Shield Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Tower Shield Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
I am sorry....but how much AC do you imagine this granting?

Defense Boost: Activate to gain a (+5/+10/+15) Action Boost bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance
and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.
Does this still share cooldowns? If so, its not going to be used in place of more useful boosts that increase dps/threat

Resistance Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/2/3) to Saving Throws.
Nothing really to say about this

Greater Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
Strong Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Strength
Hardy Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Constitution
Tenacious Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(10/15/20)% Sacred bonus to maximum hit points.
A definite improvement!

+1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma
Nothing to say here.

Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by 15%/30%/50%.
50% is a nice bonus to AC granted by armor

Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by 15%/30%/50%.
Same as above ^^

Spellshield Aura: Your Aura now grants a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Spell Resistance.
This is another one of those things I do not see anyone taking ever. Does spell resistance even work in Epic Elite content??

Swift Defense: Sacred Defense grants you a 10% sacred bonus to movement speed
A welcome change.

Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times.[/COLOR]
I think this could be done better. MUCH better. The only way you ever build up any kind of respectable bonus is to be getting attacked but not be attacking back...This is not one that is going to be useful enough to put AP into. Especially not as a tier 5. Or am I reading this wrong? It seems that once you attack, you lose the bonus and have to start all over building it up...

Harbored By Light: You gain +10/+15/+25 Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating. You gain 1/2/3 uses of Lay On Hands. In addition, while you are actively blocking with a shield, enemies that attack you will take 3d4/4d4/5d4 Light Damage.
This would almost be a great thing to have. Except it is tier 5 and requires the tank to stop dealing dps (and therefore stop gathering threat!) and turtle up behind their shield. This is not a viable tactic if you wish to hold aggro.

*Note: Harbored By Light mistakenly gives 1/2/3 Lay On Hands on live. We made it an official bonus.
Wonderful to hear!


So overall, I still feel the Paladin is missing DPS to hold aggro. The damage a tank built paladin does by comparison to a decent DPS is horrifically lopsided. What good is being nearly unkillable, if you cannot properly protect your party?

In addition, there are a couple places in the tree (not to mention on gear and on the Unyielding Sentinel tree!) that require you to actively block in order to function. This is NOT viable for a paladin. Their Intim score is not high enough to successfully Intim on epic elite nor is their DPS high enough to build any kind of "lead" on the threat list. This is a nice bunch of changes, but you will not entice many to play a paladin tank with what you have posted up here so far. Sorry.

[Thar]

First I would like to say that, in general, I like the enhancement changes. The tree is still quite costly, but with the cheaper AP and the general buff to PRR and addition of MMR it might not be too costly anymore. The ability to choose between heavy/medium armor and shields (or both)is also very nice, and should help with improving dps on some builds because they can use thf instead of a shield. What I AM worried about tho is threat.

As documented Divine Righteousness(3ed innate), Improved Sacred Defense: Inciting Defense(t1-3, multi selector), and Intolerant Blows(Unyielding Sentinel, t3) are all Sacred bonuses to threat generation. This would mean that they do not stack.

Maybe this isn't bad, and the improved *real* damage from Holy Sword (Paladin spell, lv4) will make up for the non-stacking threat, and maybe also the Melee Power causing damage improvements in general for melee toons will help here too. I DO think that having non-stacking things in the same tree is somewhat misleading. I think it would be a good thing to make Divine Righteousness and ISD: Inciting D stack, perhaps by making ISD: Inciting D a fully stacking bonus like the one from the Fighter tree, or if you choose not to do such to make it very, very clear that they do not in the enhancement descriptions.

the holy sword is only a buff for pally's > 14 the level so multiclassing loses out and more if you factor in that zeal needs to be the other slot which means 18 pally for these two necessary buffs. All the ap reductions are tier 4/5 so again multiclassing loses out. Melee power will be better potentially but so will all other melee toons so threat/dps will still be the problem.

The tree is too costly for the minimal ac bonuses. To give any real buff to pally's the vanguard tree would have to have MAJOR dps assistance low in the tree so it is obtainable. How many characters can afford this tree and get improved smiting now with anything left over? so it will be giving up the defense from this tree or improved smiting from koc tree for vanguard. It will need to be too good. These two existing trees need some dps/threat assistance.

no dev responses today?

[Scrabbler]

+3 AC isnt what it use to be...Just sayin.

Due to the newer non-D&D rules for attack rolls, most all enhancements which add +X AC should be changed to scale with your level.

A 3% Dodge benefit is similarly useful at all levels, but a +3 AC is only helpful when very low. Yet both of them cost the same number of AP; scaling the AC gain might fix that.

[Dilbon]

About that Spell Resistance enhancement, I took it once but noticed that it doesn't even stack with spell resistance items. So it's worthless.

And the capstone, making the range of unconsciousness a charisma score increase can be a nerf in many cases, I don't think many non-PDK paladins have 40 charisma. So how about making it a 2 x charisma bonus instead. The effect itself is nice, especially with Ward Token and the human enhancement that also increases unconsciousness range.

[XodousRoC]

About that Spell Resistance enhancement, I took it once but noticed that it doesn't even stack with spell resistance items. So it's worthless.

And the capstone, making the range of unconsciousness a charisma score increase can be a nerf in many cases, I don't think many non-PDK paladins have 40 charisma. So how about making it a 2 x charisma bonus instead. The effect itself is nice, especially with Ward Token and the human enhancement that also increases unconsciousness range.

As was stated earlier in the thread, a capstone that requires us to be in dire threat of dying to work is a bad capstone. How does getting another 30 points (or even 60) for range of unconsciousness compete with evasion for a capstone? +4 to a primary stat? In what way is this even comparable? I'm sorry, but giving a us a limited use capstone mechanic that may actually help us a couple times/life versus having bonuses that help us all the time is bad design. The capstone should help us to avoid becoming dead/near death, not just proc when we're in that situation. I would prefer a capstone that included some kind of guard that procs a low percentage auto retaliation with a chance for knockdown or stun (maybe a 5% proc with a save of char lvl + cha). This would play well with the idea of turtling up, adding in a potential bit of cc to help keep mobs where they belong; around the tank. Include a +4 to a primary stat (str/con), and away we go. The capstone as presented is poor design. I'm sorry devs, but I'm quite disappointed in your efforts here.

[harry-pancreas]

About that Spell Resistance enhancement, I took it once but noticed that it doesn't even stack with spell resistance items. So it's worthless.

And the capstone, making the range of unconsciousness a charisma score increase can be a nerf in many cases, I don't think many non-PDK paladins have 40 charisma. So how about making it a 2 x charisma bonus instead. The effect itself is nice, especially with Ward Token and the human enhancement that also increases unconsciousness range.

i agree it will be a nerf for more people, and a buff for almoast nobody, nor a big one. But 2x CHA bonus ir worse. The formula for the bonus of any stat is (stat-10) / 2
i.e. charisma (or any stat) 18 grants a +4 bonus (18-10)/2 = 4
so you'd need 50 CHA to reach a -40 range (CHA 50-10=40 and 40/2=+20 bonus)---and then 20x2 for the actual calculation of the range of unconsciousness (40)

i guess 30+CHA bonus could work, you'd need CHA 30 to reach a -40 range of unconsciousness. But it's a random number i just threw there, it could be too much and probably not easy to control de range of power of most builds out there

[maddong]

I think the 2 biggest problems with the current arrangement are:

1. We don't need to encourage splashing paladin so the stance needs to be moved back to 6.

2. Regardless of the enhancements we will see plenty of 14+ paladins after the update due to holy sword... but you have to give some meat to tier 5 powers (50 PRR harbored by light was at least some meat) otherwise everyone will just be playing 14 paladin/6 monk for:
evasion, fist of iron, ninja poison, 4d6 sneak attack, 25% incorporeal, no mercy, shadow double, possibly touch of death (I heard it doesn't apply to offhand?), +10% offhand, iron skin earth stance with +1 crit 19-20
With brush hooks or thunderforged shortswords....

[J-mann]

I think the 2 biggest problems with the current arrangement are:

1. We don't need to encourage splashing paladin so the stance needs to be moved back to 6.

2. Regardless of the enhancements we will see plenty of 14+ paladins after the update due to holy sword... but you have to give some meat to tier 5 powers (50 PRR harbored by light was at least some meat) otherwise everyone will just be playing 14 paladin/6 monk for:
evasion, fist of iron, ninja poison, 4d6 sneak attack, 25% incorporeal, no mercy, shadow double, possibly touch of death (I heard it doesn't apply to offhand?), +10% offhand, iron skin earth stance with +1 crit 19-20
With brush hooks or thunderforged shortswords....

Sorry I fail to see how stance at 3 and not requiring shield makes me want to splash pally all that much more. If you take stance, you loose all rage bonuses, so basically I trade 2-5 str for 10 prr 10 mrr and 50% threat, and I dont even WANT the threat as a dps. You cant compare with upgraded stances as that costs ap and it is impossible to tell me what you gave up for that ap spent. I feel the trade offs of no rage and extra threat are more than enough to discourage dps from splashing 3 ftr/3 pally for the stance (not to mention the huge ap sink that the tree is).

for your second point, more meat in tier five is not going to discourage your listed splash, but I dont disagree that more meat in t5 isnt warrented for pallies and fighters.

[Sgt_Hart]

Innate Abilities

• (Moved to tier 3) 10 AP, Pal6: Divine Righteousness: Channel Divinity: You gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma score and a 100% Sacred bonus to threat generation for 60 seconds.

Tier One (0 AP Required)

• Improved Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
  
  • Inciting Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Sacred bonus to melee threat generation.

Just to be clear, the intention here is "Ha ha, I see you took the threat gen clicky, however, its Only 75-25% more effective than the stance you're probably always in!" What are the odds of untyping that clicky bonus on pally's, or making it Competence, or something? Hate Generation clicky, as a core ability, that won't stack with stance....

Well, that's just inexcusably silly.

[bbqzor]

Since Unyielding Sentinel is based on Paladin, it is undesirable that a Fighter Stalwart Defender gets more benefit from Intolerant Blows than a Paladin Sacred Defender does.

Fighters have to spend 4 destiny points to get it though, since they do not come with smite. It costs more for them, so they get more. As there are not enough points to buy all the useful things in Unyielding anyhow, this is a pretty weighty trade off. Paladins can even choose to spend 0 points and use Divine Righteousness for 25% of the 125% "extra over stance" its worth, for free.

So Fighters pay 4 destiny points for 200%, or paladins spend 2 points for 100%, or paladins spend 0 points for 25%. Its not equal gains, but it also isnt equal in cost, paladins have it cheaper.

Just to be clear, the intention here is "Ha ha, I see you took the threat gen clicky, however, its Only 75-25% more effective than the stance you're probably always in!" What are the odds of untyping that clicky bonus on pally's, or making it Competence, or something? Hate Generation clicky, as a core ability, that won't stack with stance....

The devs (sev) have said multiple times "we cant or we miss our deadline" so this isnt design by ideals, its design by management deadline. They arent going to do "whats right", that much is becoming evident. Theyre doing to do "whats the best-fit convenient" treatment. Maybe they come back later, maybe not (count me as a vote for not, track record says it all) but whatever future plans are, none of thats going to affect the now. And the now is "whatevers a quick fix".

Heres how to fix this whole threat-typing-cost thing in the "we are on a deadline" way. Step 1, type the Paladin stance upgrades to Competence same as the Fighter one. Step 2, Reduce Divine Righteousness to a +50% clicky but leave it typed as Sacred. Step 3, dont do anything to Unyielding.

It means, stances are equal. And any AP spent to upgrade them always applies. Equally.

The Paladin hate-gen clicky (Divine Righteousness) is +50% which then stacks with the base stance (50%) and the stance upgrades (0-75%). For someone who had spent no AP, this is less bonus (100 now, vs 150 on live). While for someone who spent AP, this is more bonus (175 now, vs 150 on live). This means that if you spend no effort into buying your stance up, you dont get as far, and thats fine. And if you do spend AP into buying your stance up, you are now farther along, which is rather befitting of something which you dont get a choice about since its a CORE ability and should help what youre spending AP on, not over-write it.

Then, when you get to Unyielding, Fighters can spend 4 points to get 200% gain. Paladins can spend 2 points to get 150% gain (or skip it, and use their base 50% gain). Yes, its a slightly more appealing position for paladins to be in, but again... thats okay. Its supposed to be the destiny based on their class. They should be in a good place to take advantage of what it offers. And right now, there is too much to buy in the tree. This both means Paladins who spend the points get more for them, and Paladins who dont spend the points lose less. Meaning its both more worthwhile, and more worth it to buy something else... just better in the tree period. And fighters? They still gain the most, at the same cost, no ground lost.

As far as dev time it takes changing one bonus type and one bonus amount. Change the Paladin stance type to Competence. Change the Div Righteous amount to 50%. Done.

Not what I would propose given infinite resources, but since all the dev responses lately are "we cant cause no time so heres a slide-by fix rather than a real one" there you go. This is about as much "fix" as I can think of, while still taking almost no time. Hopefully helpful. Cheers.

[Ayseifn]

Sorry I fail to see how stance at 3 and not requiring shield makes me want to splash pally all that much more. If you take stance, you loose all rage bonuses, so basically I trade 2-5 str for 10 prr 10 mrr and 50% threat, and I dont even WANT the threat as a dps. You cant compare with upgraded stances as that costs ap and it is impossible to tell me what you gave up for that ap spent. I feel the trade offs of no rage and extra threat are more than enough to discourage dps from splashing 3 ftr/3 pally for the stance (not to mention the huge ap sink that the tree is).

for your second point, more meat in tier five is not going to discourage your listed splash, but I dont disagree that more meat in t5 isnt warrented for pallies and fighters.

I usually want threat as a DPS, when mobs run away from me they generally take longer to kill. Splashing 3 paladin or fighter might not appeal to you but it does others, there's a fairly popular 12 bard/6 fighter/2 rogue build floating around that could drop 2-3 fighter levels now without really missing anything. I really like the idea of being able to grab a ton of defence out of 3-4 pally levels but it does marginalize levels 5-13.

[Dilbon]

i agree it will be a nerf for more people, and a buff for almoast nobody, nor a big one. But 2x CHA bonus ir worse.

Yes, I meant 2 x charisma (80 if you have 40 charisma).

[Dilbon]

As was stated earlier in the thread, a capstone that requires us to be in dire threat of dying to work is a bad capstone. How does getting another 30 points (or even 60) for range of unconsciousness compete with evasion for a capstone? +4 to a primary stat? In what way is this even comparable? I'm sorry, but giving a us a limited use capstone mechanic that may actually help us a couple times/life versus having bonuses that help us all the time is bad design.

I just have to ask all who think the capstone is bad: have you actually seen it in action personally?

[XodousRoC]

I just have to ask all who think the capstone is bad: have you actually seen it in action personally?

I'm very sorry, and I mean no disrespect to your opinions, but this response made me laugh.

When my PM hits his lich form and receives +4 to his int; this I notice and see the result all the time.
When my Bard swashbuckler hits 20 and receives evasion, I see the result (avoidance of spell/trap damage) all the time.
When my Paladin heroic caps, I get to run through to 28 and almost never see the capstone benefit him.

The capstone is a poor joke at best, and a slap in the face at worst.

If your opinion differs, then I am sorry for the strength of my response. This isn't meant to belittle your opinions. I simply feel strongly that the devs have given us a VERY limited tool as our capstone here rather than a tool that helps us to avoid near death (evasion and +4 to your primary stat do just that). I'd also like to posit that in EE content, extending your unconsciousness by 100 would often still not save you if you find yourself surrounded by mobs and receiving damage at a rate higher than your mitigation and heals can keep up with.

So, to all who apparently don't think this capstone is nigh worthless, I would ask you why? Why is a tool that is only useful in highly limited situations a great capstone? Why is it that you would support a capstone that does not in fact benefit every Paladin who selects it all the time?

[Dilbon]

So, the answer is no then?

[XodousRoC]

So, the answer is no then?

And if it is, does that somehow invalidate my responses?

This cap gives a split +2/+2 and a mechanic that does not benefit you all the time, nor give you active benefit of its use beyond, "You should be dead, but your not, but you will be again as soon as this EE mob realizes your not when you should be." EE mobs hit hard enough that a reactive 250 pt heal won't help. If a paladin, run well, ever gets to this situation then he's already out of sp, loh, and any other form of convenient self heals (sf pots, perhaps scrolls, etc). The fact that I've never taken or received the "benefit" of a poor cap in no way invalidates my opinion. I've played this game long enough (~3 years) to have played all of the classes to cap, and this is just a poor man's reactive heal. It will only save you a few times/life...assuming a modicum of ability...

I don't appreciate the split stat cap, nor do I appreciate a mechanic that does not help my toon to avoid the very situation you have to be in for this to be effective.

Intimating that because I've not experienced this poor mechanic means my opinion is invalid is no different than saying that the fact I've never almost died in a car accident means I shouldn't be able to understand that's a situation I'd rather avoid. I don't need to be bleeding in a ditch to know I don't want to be bleeding in a ditch.