Paladin: Sacred Defender Changes

[bloodnose13]

I want to agree here as well, though I'd caution that the wording is borderline confrontational. I get fed up when I feel unheard, too. I sometimes even promote my opinions before I've had time to cool off. The crux of the problem is that we want the devs to work with us, not tune us out because we start off confrontational. I don't like the capstone either. It won't get me to stay pure. It won't entice me out of KoTC/HotD. It won't even get me to take it on my TANK. There are those who like it, however, and while they may be in the minority, they are just as vocal in its defense. You and I don't have to like every capstone. They don't have to either, but we have to choose our battles sometimes, and this one seems lost. I hope those who like the cap enjoy it the one or two times per life it's useful. I'd definitely prefer something that boosts our toons all the time...or at least with frequency. Mechanics that require we "die" and limited timer ability boosts don't belong in capstones. Such things, to me, do not make my toon better on a consistent basis. I want a cap that forces me to grimace when I have to give it up for a build, not a cap I avoid in my primary build tree...

*Further commentary in red within yours

maybe it is confrontational but im tired of saying same things over and over since day 1 of new enchancement system, i play pally tanks, and it got bit better since first version of it, but it still is not what other trees are, what it could be, there is no other enchancement tree in other classes that is so singleminded and wrapped around one idea, they always have that fragile balance of dps/utility/defence, defender trees are just made of a things that were part of stance in old system, one enchancement that overgrown to a size of nearly whole trees, changes that wont require shield anymore, mean that we will have splashes and kotc/vanguards that will benefit from it way more than defender can benefit from anything else, if you build a tank you cant allow yourself to just not take most of the stuff in the tree, you just cant.

now the other problem is that makeing a defender tree in a source only of defence, pushes away tanks again, becouse sure ppl will want them for raids, but still they will be seen ONLY as a thing that is supposed to take aggro and be forgotten again. paladins get all those auras, by expanding on that idea it would be possible to create something way more usefull for the group than just thing that takes aggro, even ninja dummy can do that with success, most of time better than a real tank...... aint that sad?

all i want is for devs to stop thinking how to make this tree usefull to everyone, and start thinking how to make it usefull to tanks.... all i ask.

[toapat]

all i want is for devs to stop thinking how to make this tree usefull to everyone, and start thinking how to make it usefull to tanks.... all i ask.

Thats what i wanted too.

On Lamania its obvious the only change to paladins that did anything significant was the change to holy sword (which is litterally broken beyond reason). the Cleaves are convenient, but the healing amp is still in KotC (which it shouldnt be), the stances still eat most of DoS and the only good Active in DoS is glorious stand.

Until a proper rebuild to actually make paladin post lvl 2+14 matter though, the DoS/KotC changes have no value to the class and really need to themselves be reworked to conform to these design objectives:

Impossible to completely invest in trees with proper Internal balance asto not have any optimal or suboptimal choices (all classes should have this though)
Smite Evil attacks beyond Pimp my Smite
more uses of Turn undead with better balanced abilities
Smite Evil and Turn undead to not share the same tree
The option to be a ranged combatant

[XodousRoC]

maybe it is confrontational but im tired of saying same things over and over since day 1 of new enchancement system, i play pally tanks, and it got bit better since first version of it, but it still is not what other trees are, what it could be, there is no other enchancement tree in other classes that is so singleminded and wrapped around one idea, they always have that fragile balance of dps/utility/defence, defender trees are just made of a things that were part of stance in old system, one enchancement that overgrown to a size of nearly whole trees, changes that wont require shield anymore, mean that we will have splashes and kotc/vanguards that will benefit from it way more than defender can benefit from anything else, if you build a tank you cant allow yourself to just not take most of the stuff in the tree, you just cant.

now the other problem is that makeing a defender tree in a source only of defence, pushes away tanks again, becouse sure ppl will want them for raids, but still they will be seen ONLY as a thing that is supposed to take aggro and be forgotten again. paladins get all those auras, by expanding on that idea it would be possible to create something way more usefull for the group than just thing that takes aggro, even ninja dummy can do that with success, most of time better than a real tank...... aint that sad?

all i want is for devs to stop thinking how to make this tree usefull to everyone, and start thinking how to make it usefull to tanks.... all i ask.

This is a better post, and I honestly do agree with much of it. They've given us a reason to want a deep investment in Pally with the Holy Sword changes, but I was hoping for a reason to want to be a Defender. This tree does not provide that. The capstone doesn't make me want it; I avoid it on my tanks because I don't feel it provides enough benefit to playing experience...it only lets me not die when I've died a couple times per life; not good for a capstone mechanic.

Thats what i wanted too.

On Lamania its obvious the only change to paladins that did anything significant was the change to holy sword (which is litterally broken beyond reason). the Cleaves are convenient, but the healing amp is still in KotC (which it shouldnt be), the stances still eat most of DoS and the only good Active in DoS is glorious stand.

Until a proper rebuild to actually make paladin post lvl 2+14 matter though, the DoS/KotC changes have no value to the class and really need to themselves be reworked to conform to these design objectives:

Impossible to completely invest in trees with proper Internal balance asto not have any optimal or suboptimal choices (all classes should have this though)
Smite Evil attacks beyond Pimp my Smite
more uses of Turn undead with better balanced abilities
Smite Evil and Turn undead to not share the same tree
The option to be a ranged combatant

A lot of good ideas here. Holy sword makes us want lots of Paladin (and likely will even after the inevitable reduction in power), but this tree doesn't make me want to be a defender. We still don't have regenerative turns, we still can't improve our smites to help hold agro, and we still don't have improved agro holding abilities (read aoe dps improvement). I'm not sure I like idea of ranged options in the defender tree, but reducing costs a bit more would free up some ap for you to invest in other trees should you desire that. The inclusion of a burst dps enhancement attached to smites at the top of the tree, and/or a potential short duration retributive knockdown effect included in the cap would go a long way toward remedying the problems this tree has.

[toapat]

A lot of good ideas here. Holy sword makes us want lots of Paladin (and likely will even after the inevitable reduction in power), but this tree doesn't make me want to be a defender. We still don't have regenerative turns, we still can't improve our smites to help hold agro, and we still don't have improved agro holding abilities (read aoe dps improvement). I'm not sure I like idea of ranged options in the defender tree, but reducing costs a bit more would free up some ap for you to invest in other trees should you desire that. The inclusion of a burst dps enhancement attached to smites at the top of the tree, and/or a potential short duration retributive knockdown effect included in the cap would go a long way toward remedying the problems this tree has.

That list wasnt DoS specific, it was paladin design needs (along with something that clearly needs to be part of the design of all talent trees in the game but none of the trees have). All of which are wholly unsupported by these changes. As i said. in reality, the only relevant change to paladin so far has been Holy Sword, which is so monsterously overpowered that it allowed Turbine to be completely irresponsible with the tree reworks. The problem is, beyond lvls 2, 14, and possibly 18 if you like Glorious Stand, there is nothing paladin has going for it in a "powergamer" sense.

[XodousRoC]

That list wasnt DoS specific, it was paladin design needs (along with something that clearly needs to be part of the design of all talent trees in the game but none of the trees have). All of which are wholly unsupported by these changes. As i said. in reality, the only relevant change to paladin so far has been Holy Sword, which is so monsterously overpowered that it allowed Turbine to be completely irresponsible with the tree reworks. The problem is, beyond lvls 2, 14, and possibly 18 if you like Glorious Stand, there is nothing paladin has going for it in a "powergamer" sense.

Yeah, 2 nets us Divine Grace, 14 nets the only real dps increase (and yeah, it's pretty uber, but what about the trees??), and that's it for me. I can get more from splits the rest of the way out, and it isn't close. 15 Pal/3 rogue/2 monk for Sireth builds. 14 Pal/4FvS/2 Fighter for my SoS build. My current 20 Pal (who was really hoping for a reason to stay pure) will prolly go 18 Pal/2 Fighter, but that's just for more sp in a heavy armor/dmg mit build (meaning a bit of FvS would probably be better here as well, or perhaps one wiz for the free meta and magical training). I suppose even 14 Pal/5 Cleric/1 Fighter would probably be superior (giving me access to the superior warpriest tree, rad servant, extra feat, and still get Holy Sword).

Oh well, maybe next time...

[bloodnose13]

That list wasnt DoS specific, it was paladin design needs (along with something that clearly needs to be part of the design of all talent trees in the game but none of the trees have). All of which are wholly unsupported by these changes. As i said. in reality, the only relevant change to paladin so far has been Holy Sword, which is so monsterously overpowered that it allowed Turbine to be completely irresponsible with the tree reworks. The problem is, beyond lvls 2, 14, and possibly 18 if you like Glorious Stand, there is nothing paladin has going for it in a "powergamer" sense.

if you look from lvl 1, leveling a pally defender and even fighter to some degree, since they have lot in common, are a chore, there is no sense of "oooooh im happy i get something new", its more like "oh i get another stack of ac..."innext level, "i get another stack of ac from other enchancement, this time from shield", and "oh this time i get more ac through getting more dex bonus"................. boooooriiiing.

ac bonuses should be merged and streamlined into ONE enchancement line in the tree, to have less stacks and more scaleing with character level, save line should end up with a tier 5 ability that would allow to reroll 1 in save, mini no fail on 1 enchancement, reprisal in my opinion should have duration on stacks, and add attack speed with each stack, shield users swing those weapons slow, and shield bashes slow it too, there should be enchancement line that would add shield bash chance, and add additional shield bash attacks with +W and a chance for effects like stun, trip, unbalance (that would make trip easier), own smite line that would be for defence, hate generation, that would be something to put in between cleaves to actualy have attack clickie chain, also i had idea for something that could be called shield rush, another enchancemnt line would be about aura, at base all the upgrades we can get now, so typical ac, saves, sr, with upgrades to it being a dodge aura, an aura of glory aura that would be a clickie that when paladin scores critical or vorpal every friendly in aura gets healed 1d4+cha mod, another clickie boost could be a short duration "generate hate for me" aura, so everyone in aura can generate hate for tank? or other way around, everyone in aura has lowered hate generation similar to what druid can do for his summons, pet, charmed creatures.

[11001]

Sacred defender stance currently requires paladin lvl 6 despite being moved (as of core 2), it should be lvl 3 based on its new position (same goes for stalwart defender) i can't believe no one noticed.

[mkmcgw17]

Greetings.

We are updating a few enhancements in the Sacred Defender tree for Paladins. These changes are designed at making the tree more desirable and allowing it to better work with the armor mitigation changes.

First, we changed some AP costs for existing enhancements:

AP cost of Saves Boost changed to 1/1/1.
AP cost of Defense Boost changed to 1/1/1.
AP cost of Reinforced Defense changed to 1/1/1 both times you can take it.
AP cost of Harbored by Light changed to 1/1/1.

Now onto the tree changes:


Innate Abilities

• 1 AP: Holy Bastion: You gain +1 Hit Point and 1 Positive Energy Spell Power for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Sacred Defender Core Ability you possess grants +2% Fortification.
• (Moved to tier 2) 5 AP, Pal3: Sacred Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance and Magical Resistance and a 50% bonus to threat generation. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)
• (Moved to tier 3) 10 AP, Pal6: Divine Righteousness: Channel Divinity: You gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma score and a 100% Sacred bonus to threat generation for 60 seconds.
• 20 AP, Pal12: Redemption: The following spells are added to the Paladin spell list: Level 2: Raise Dead Level 3: Resurrection Level 4: True Resurrection. Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating.
• 30 AP, Pal18: Glorious Stand: Channel Divinity: For a short duration you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating.
• 41 AP, Pal20: Eternal Defender: Passive: You gain +2 Charisma and +2 Constitution, and grants a Sacred bonus that increases your range of unconsciousness by your Charisma score. (This bonus updates once per minute.) Toggle: While Eternal Defender is active, if you drop below 0 hit points, two uses of Lay on Hands and Turn Undead are immediately expended and you receive a reactive heal for 250 points of Positive Energy healing. Passive: You gain 10 Physical Resist Rating and 10 Magical Resist Rating.

Tier One (0 AP Required)

• Item Defense: You have a (25/50/75)% chance to negate potential item wear.
• Extra Lay on Hands: You gain +(1/2/3) uses of Lay on Hands.
• Improved Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
  
  • Resilient Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(1/2/3) Sacred bonus to all Saving Throws.
  • Durable Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(5/10/15) Sacred bonus to Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resist Rating.
  • Inciting Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Sacred bonus to melee threat generation.
  
  
• Sacred Armor Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Maximum Dexterity Bonus when wearing Armor.
• Saves Boost: Activate to gain a (+2/+4/+6) Action Boost bonus to all Saving Throws for 20 seconds. While under this effect you do not automatically fail saving throws on a roll of a natural 1.

Tier Two (5 AP Required)

• Instinctive Defense: You take 5% less extra damage when struck while helpless.
• Bulwark Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/3/5) Armor Class.
• Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• Sacred Shield Mastery: +(5%/10%/15%) Shield Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Tower Shield Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
• Defense Boost: Activate to gain a (+5/+10/+15) Action Boost bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.

Tier Three (10 AP Required)

• Resistance Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/2/3) to Saving Throws.
• Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• Greater Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
  
  • Strong Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Strength
  • Hardy Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Constitution
  • Tenacious Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(10/15/20)% Sacred bonus to maximum hit points.
• +1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma

Tier Four (20 AP Required)

• Reinforced Defense: Improves the Armor Class bonuses you receive from shields or armor.
  Choose One:
  Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by 15%/30%/50%.
  Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by 15%/30%/50%¹.
• Spellshield Aura: Your Aura now grants a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Spell Resistance.
• Swift Defense: Sacred Defense grants you a 10% sacred bonus to movement speed.
• Greater Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• +1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma

Tier Five (30 AP Required)

• Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times.
• Reinforced Defense: Improves the Armor Class bonuses you receive from shields or armor. Choose the option you didn't choose at Tier 4.
• Harbored By Light: You gain +10/+15/+25 Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating. You gain 1/2/3 uses of Lay On Hands.* In addition, while you are actively blocking with a shield, enemies that attack you will take 3d4/4d4/5d4 Light Damage.
• Greater Sacred Defense: Further improves your Sacred Defense stance. Pick the third option left.

*Note: Harbored By Light mistakenly gives 1/2/3 Lay On Hands on live. We made it an official bonus.

Sev~

Let me be perfectly clear the Paladin is grossly overpowered already. Right now I am watching a Paladin solo the shadow dragon raid in thunderholme on EH. No other class can do that. Please nerf the paladin. How can u not see that they're too powerful do u play the game?

[toapat]

Let me be perfectly clear the Paladin is grossly overpowered already. Right now I am watching a Paladin solo the shadow dragon raid in thunderholme on EH. No other class can do that. Please nerf the paladin. How can u not see that they're too powerful do u play the game?

Paladin isnt the reason that person is able to do that. If this is live, their ED's and gear are pulling way more weight in that achievement then you imagine
If this is on lamania, Holy Sword is the only thing allowing them to do that.

[Zurrander]

Let me be perfectly clear the Paladin is grossly overpowered already. Right now I am watching a Paladin solo the shadow dragon raid in thunderholme on EH. No other class can do that. Please nerf the paladin. How can u not see that they're too powerful do u play the game?

While I respect your right to feel that way, you must realize that this is a minority opinion... Most of us who play paladins feel that the class is massively under powered (in terms of offensive & support capabilities), and the Devs had already taken a Poll (which I'm sure showed that Paladins & Barbarians are the weakest classes in the Game) before its was decided that Paladins and then Barbs needed some love. I for one trust the Devs & Players Counsel to know what they are doing (in fact most of my concerns so far have been chalked up to Typos or misinterpreting the intent of the changes). But if your still concerned that Paladins are overpowered to the point of being game breaking then I would ask Sev or Vargouille to share the results of the "Character Balance Survey" with us so that your argument can have the player base behind it, instead of it being a single player crying nerf...

[bsquishwizzy]

That list wasnt DoS specific, it was paladin design needs (along with something that clearly needs to be part of the design of all talent trees in the game but none of the trees have). All of which are wholly unsupported by these changes. As i said. in reality, the only relevant change to paladin so far has been Holy Sword, which is so monsterously overpowered that it allowed Turbine to be completely irresponsible with the tree reworks. The problem is, beyond lvls 2, 14, and possibly 18 if you like Glorious Stand, there is nothing paladin has going for it in a "powergamer" sense.

You know, if you put back the shield requirement for SD enhancements, it balances out Holy Sword.

THF / TWF still get low AC but a decent boost to DPS when DPS really starts to suffer (around 16) because AC / PRR isn't enough. But moar DPS knocks down mobs faster than they can damage you.

Enforcing shield requirements forces SD to go S&B, which is low DPS by its very nature. Holy Sword boosts this to make it mediocre to average.

Nerfing Holy Sword - which is literally USELESS in its current form - is a bad idea. Fixing the trees so that SD forces you to go S&B creates the balance.

Half of the problem here is that S&B is never considered something valid for melee. Right now, tanking requires it. From what I can see (and mind you, I have not been following this closely) removing shield requirements gives everyone access to lovely defensive capabilities that should ONLY be available with a shield (hence the purpose of having a shield).

[BDog77]

From what I can see (and mind you, I have not been following this closely) removing shield requirements gives everyone access to lovely defensive capabilities that should ONLY be available with a shield (hence the purpose of having a shield).

Eh, not from what I can see. The shield requirement was only for the Greater Stance anyway, which only gives +6 Str, +6 Con, and (maybe, I forgot exactly) 20% to HPs. This stance is still horribly broken, btw, causing you to lose these benefits when you swap weapons until you also swap armor. Since my characters will sometimes swap weapons midfight, this stance is not an option, shield or no.

[Nodoze]

Eh, not from what I can see. The shield requirement was only for the Greater Stance anyway, which only gives +6 Str, +6 Con, and (maybe, I forgot exactly) 20% to HPs. This stance is still horribly broken, btw, causing you to lose these benefits when you swap weapons until you also swap armor. Since my characters will sometimes swap weapons midfight, this stance is not an option, shield or no.

I think they should fix the stance and keep the greater and upper tiers requiring a shield giving S&B folk some things that others cannot have.

[bsquishwizzy]

Eh, not from what I can see. The shield requirement was only for the Greater Stance anyway, which only gives +6 Str, +6 Con, and (maybe, I forgot exactly) 20% to HPs. This stance is still horribly broken, btw, causing you to lose these benefits when you swap weapons until you also swap armor. Since my characters will sometimes swap weapons midfight, this stance is not an option, shield or no.

Yes. I find it totally annoying that I have to heal myself when I switch out a sword. I've learned to live with it (and honestly, I haven't run my pally in a while).

[bloodnose13]

since defender capstone is this bad, maybe it could be replaced with sla cure critical or at least serious, holy sword spell becomeing something usefull again created a problem of only 4 spell slots in lvl 4 spell list, haveing cure spell granted by capstone would again free a slot used for cure serious. its hard choice to drop any spell from level 4 spell list.

[EllisDee37]

I think they should fix the stance and keep the greater and upper tiers requiring a shield giving S&B folk some things that others cannot have.

S&B gets a whole tree: Vanguard.

[Drathsiddh]

Greetings.

We are updating a few enhancements in the Sacred Defender tree for Paladins. These changes are designed at making the tree more desirable and allowing it to better work with the armor mitigation changes.

Tier Three (10 AP Required)

• Resistance Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/2/3) to Saving Throws.
• Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
• Greater Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
  
  • Strong Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Strength
  • Hardy Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Sacred bonus to Constitution
  • Tenacious Defense: Sacred Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(10/15/20)% Sacred bonus to maximum hit points.
• +1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma

Sev~

So with these changes, it is possible to have a two handed or dual weild and have a bonus to str/con/HP?
Good change, paladins are getting the love, but I'm worried they're going to get too over powered (not that they are) which will require a nerf.

[bloodnose13]

So with these changes, it is possible to have a two handed or dual weild and have a bonus to str/con/HP?
Good change, paladins are getting the love, but I'm worried they're going to get too over powered (not that they are) which will require a nerf.

and that is why i think those bonuses should be scattered between core enchancements, just like in old system, +2 str/con +5% at lvl 6, +4,+10% at 12, and +6,+20% at 18, it would still allow to get bonus but not as high, those stat bonuses were made specificaly for defenders, and i dont understand why devs are so keen on giveing out parts of defender for pretty penny for everyone who will either splash in few paladin/fighter levels or be kotc of vanguard, kotc/vanguard and splashers will come out better on all of this, becouse they wont need to "waste" ap on shield enchancements, they will just take armor and stats, and be on their way to the desired tree. and yes it will all end up in nerf that will hit again those who defender tree was designed for instead of those who exploit parts of it. .....ah......... circle of life....

[bloodnose13]

wanted to see how it would look to design defender tree in a way i would like to see it, so i tried, i created this rework of a tree with things in mind i would like to have as a tank, there was too much wasted space in the tree so i cut some of it, merged and added some things i was thinking of before, i diidnt do math on overall ap cost, but they should be about same or less, general idea is that we should be able to take everything defence related, as focusing on defender with less that 40 points, so the rest of points can be used to get either utility or dps abilities from this tree OR others. also merged the stance stat bonuses into cores as they are way too easy to get for spash or user focusing on other tree.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Innate Abilities


1 AP: Holy Bastion: You gain +1 Hit Point and 1 Positive Energy Spell Power for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Sacred Defender Core Ability you possess grants +2% Fortification.
(Moved to tier 2) 5 AP, Pal3: Sacred Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance and Magical Resistance and a 50% bonus to threat generation. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)
(Moved to tier 3) 10 AP, Pal6: Divine Righteousness: Channel Divinity: You gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma score and a 100% Sacred bonus to threat generation for 60 seconds. Passive: +2 sacred bonus to STR/CON +5% hp
20 AP, Pal12: Redemption: The following spells are added to the Paladin spell list: Level 2: Raise Dead Level 3: Resurrection Level 4: True Resurrection. Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating, +4 sacred bonus to STR/CON +10% hp
30 AP, Pal18: Glorious Stand: Channel Divinity: For a short duration you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating. +6 sacred bonus to STR/CON +20% hp
41 AP, Pal20: Eternal Defender: Passive: You gain +2 Charisma and +2 Constitution, and grants a Sacred bonus that increases your range of unconsciousness by your Charisma score. (This bonus updates once per minute.), You gain 10 Physical Resist Rating and 10 Magical Resist Rating. +1 lay on hands use, SLA cure critical wounds, ability to reroll 1 in save roll (it would become mini version of no save fail on 1)



Tier One (0 AP Required)


Item Defense: You have a (25/50/75)% chance to negate potential item wear.
Extra Lay on Hands: You gain +(1/2/3) uses of Lay on Hands.
Improved Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
Resilient Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(1/2/3) Sacred bonus to all Saving Throws.
Durable Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(5/10/15) Sacred bonus to Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resist Rating.
Inciting Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Sacred bonus to melee threat generation.

Sacred Armor Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Maximum Dexterity Bonus when wearing Armor.
Saves Boost: Activate to gain a (+2/+4/+6) Action Boost bonus to all Saving Throws for 20 seconds. While under this effect you do not automatically fail saving throws on a roll of a natural 1.



Tier Two (5 AP Required)


Instinctive Defense: You take 5% less extra damage when struck while helpless.
Bulwark Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/3/5) Armor Class.
Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
Sacred Shield Mastery: +(5%/10%/15%) Shield Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Tower Shield Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
Defense Boost: Activate to gain a (+5/+10/+15) Action Boost bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.



Tier Three (10 AP Required)

COMEING THROUGH!!!: while actively shield blocking: overrun enemy in the way (idea is to make it into attack similar to druids winter wolf attack, that freezes enemies, just with shorter move range, and overrun instead of freeze)
Shield bash attack: +1/2/3w, 5/10/15% chance to stun enemy for 6 seconds, dc str+cha modifier, cooldown 30/15/10 seconds
Resistance Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/2/3) to Saving Throws.
Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
Greater Sacred Defense: merged into core 6
+1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma



Tier Four (20 AP Required)


Reinforced Defense: merged into tier 5 , instead Greater shield bash: you gain +5/+10/+15% bonus to shield bash chance, at tier 2 you gain, on critical shield bash: unbalancing strike, enemy affected by it has penalty to balance, at tier 3 you gain, on vorpal shield bash: enemy is tripped for 3 seconds, no save
Spellshield Aura: removed, pointless, replaced with Battle Aura: allies in aura gain +2/4/6 doublestrike/ enemies in aura get 1 vulnerability stack every 3 seconds they remain in aura, 10 stacks.
Greater Sacred Defense: merged into core 12
+1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma



Tier Five (30 AP Required)


Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage, stacks decay at rate 1/6 seconds. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times.
Reinforced Defense: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armors, docents and shields is increased by 15%/30%/50%
Mobile Defense: when shield blocking, you can move around at walk speed instead of tumbling/jumping around, tier 2 you can make main hand attacks while shield blocking (moved to tier 5 from 4 as it would be too easy to get there, idk, either way extra 10% run speed does not fit in this tree)
Harbored By Light: You gain +10/+15/+25 Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating. You gain +1 use of Lay On Hands. and they return 1 per 10/7/5 minutes* In addition, while you are actively blocking with a shield, enemies that attack you will take 3d4/4d4/5d4 Light Damage. sacrificing 2 layons for ability for them to return over time would be worth it, and i also added 1 layon to capstone so effective loss would be 1
Greater Sacred Defense: merged into core 18

[XodousRoC]

wanted to see how it would look to design defender tree in a way i would like to see it, so i tried, i created this rework of a tree with things in mind i would like to have as a tank, there was too much wasted space in the tree so i cut some of it, merged and added some things i was thinking of before, i diidnt do math on overall ap cost, but they should be about same or less, general idea is that we should be able to take everything defence related, as focusing on defender with less that 40 points, so the rest of points can be used to get either utility or dps abilities from this tree OR others. also merged the stance stat bonuses into cores as they are way too easy to get for spash or user focusing on other tree.

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Innate Abilities


1 AP: Holy Bastion: You gain +1 Hit Point and 1 Positive Energy Spell Power for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Sacred Defender Core Ability you possess grants +2% Fortification.
(Moved to tier 2) 5 AP, Pal3: Sacred Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance and Magical Resistance and a 50% bonus to threat generation. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)
(Moved to tier 3) 10 AP, Pal6: Divine Righteousness: Channel Divinity: You gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma score and a 100% Sacred bonus to threat generation for 60 seconds. Passive: +2 sacred bonus to STR/CON +5% hp
20 AP, Pal12: Redemption: The following spells are added to the Paladin spell list: Level 2: Raise Dead Level 3: Resurrection Level 4: True Resurrection. Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating, +4 sacred bonus to STR/CON +10% hp
30 AP, Pal18: Glorious Stand: Channel Divinity: For a short duration you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Passive: You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating and 5 Magical Resist Rating. +6 sacred bonus to STR/CON +20% hp
41 AP, Pal20: Eternal Defender: Passive: You gain +2 Charisma and +2 Constitution, and grants a Sacred bonus that increases your range of unconsciousness by your Charisma score. (This bonus updates once per minute.), You gain 10 Physical Resist Rating and 10 Magical Resist Rating. +1 lay on hands use, SLA cure critical wounds, ability to reroll 1 in save roll (it would become mini version of no save fail on 1)



Tier One (0 AP Required)


Item Defense: You have a (25/50/75)% chance to negate potential item wear.
Extra Lay on Hands: You gain +(1/2/3) uses of Lay on Hands.
Improved Sacred Defense: Multiselector:
Resilient Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(1/2/3) Sacred bonus to all Saving Throws.
Durable Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a +(5/10/15) Sacred bonus to Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resist Rating.
Inciting Defense: While in Sacred Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Sacred bonus to melee threat generation.

Sacred Armor Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Maximum Dexterity Bonus when wearing Armor.
Saves Boost: Activate to gain a (+2/+4/+6) Action Boost bonus to all Saving Throws for 20 seconds. While under this effect you do not automatically fail saving throws on a roll of a natural 1.



Tier Two (5 AP Required)


Instinctive Defense: You take 5% less extra damage when struck while helpless.
Bulwark Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/3/5) Armor Class.
Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
Sacred Shield Mastery: +(5%/10%/15%) Shield Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Tower Shield Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
Defense Boost: Activate to gain a (+5/+10/+15) Action Boost bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.



Tier Three (10 AP Required)

COMEING THROUGH!!!: while actively shield blocking: overrun enemy in the way (idea is to make it into attack similar to druids winter wolf attack, that freezes enemies, just with shorter move range, and overrun instead of freeze)
Shield bash attack: +1/2/3w, 5/10/15% chance to stun enemy for 6 seconds, dc str+cha modifier, cooldown 30/15/10 seconds
Resistance Aura: Your Aura now grants +(1/2/3) to Saving Throws.
Improved Sacred Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
Greater Sacred Defense: merged into core 6
+1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma



Tier Four (20 AP Required)


Reinforced Defense: merged into tier 5 , instead Greater shield bash: you gain +5/+10/+15% bonus to shield bash chance, at tier 2 you gain, on critical shield bash: unbalancing strike, enemy affected by it has penalty to balance, at tier 3 you gain, on vorpal shield bash: enemy is tripped for 3 seconds, no save
Spellshield Aura: removed, pointless, replaced with Battle Aura: allies in aura gain +2/4/6 doublestrike/ enemies in aura get 1 vulnerability stack every 3 seconds they remain in aura, 10 stacks.
Greater Sacred Defense: merged into core 12
+1 Con or Cha: +1 Constitution or Charisma



Tier Five (30 AP Required)


Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage, stacks decay at rate 1/6 seconds. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times.
Reinforced Defense: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armors, docents and shields is increased by 15%/30%/50%
Mobile Defense: when shield blocking, you can move around at walk speed instead of tumbling/jumping around, tier 2 you can make main hand attacks while shield blocking (moved to tier 5 from 4 as it would be too easy to get there, idk, either way extra 10% run speed does not fit in this tree)
Harbored By Light: You gain +10/+15/+25 Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating. You gain +1 use of Lay On Hands. and they return 1 per 10/7/5 minutes* In addition, while you are actively blocking with a shield, enemies that attack you will take 3d4/4d4/5d4 Light Damage. sacrificing 2 layons for ability for them to return over time would be worth it, and i also added 1 layon to capstone so effective loss would be 1
Greater Sacred Defense: merged into core 18

We can agree to disagree about the movement speed. You may not like it in the tree because, to you, it doesn't fit; I think it's an awesome addition. As to the rest of it; I like it much better than the Devs' proposal.

Shield bash attack: +1/2/3w, 5/10/15% chance to stun enemy for 6 seconds, dc str+cha modifier, cooldown 30/15/10 seconds
COMEING THROUGH!!!: while actively shield blocking: overrun enemy in the way (idea is to make it into attack similar to druids winter wolf attack, that freezes enemies, just with shorter move range, and overrun instead of freeze)
Reinforced Defense: merged into tier 5 , instead Greater shield bash: you gain +5/+10/+15% bonus to shield bash chance, at tier 2 you gain, on critical shield bash: unbalancing strike, enemy affected by it has penalty to balance, at tier 3 you gain, on vorpal shield bash: enemy is tripped for 3 seconds, no save
-I love that you've incorporated offense into the defensive stance...seems very Defenderish, though it does also tie this tree back into shields despite the Devs' apparent intent to divorce this tree of them.

Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage, stacks decay at rate 1/6 seconds. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times.
-I don't like the Reprisal mechanic as presented by the Devs at all, but the stacking mechanic of this version would earn my AP.

Harbored By Light: You gain +10/+15/+25 Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating. You gain +1 use of Lay On Hands. and they return 1 per 10/7/5 minutes* In addition, while you are actively blocking with a shield, enemies that attack you will take 3d4/4d4/5d4 Light Damage. sacrificing 2 layons for ability for them to return over time would be worth it, and i also added 1 layon to capstone so effective loss would be 1
-Regenerative LoH would be pure win for this tree (I still question the lack of regenerative turns in KotC/HotD)

41 AP, Pal20: Eternal Defender: Passive: You gain +2 Charisma and +2 Constitution, and grants a Sacred bonus that increases your range of unconsciousness by your Charisma score. (This bonus updates once per minute.), You gain 10 Physical Resist Rating and 10 Magical Resist Rating. +1 lay on hands use, SLA cure critical wounds, ability to reroll 1 in save roll (it would become mini version of no save fail on 1)
-I can't get behind the split stat caps. Make it a multi, benefiting a single stat +4, and I'm on-board. I still greatly dislike the incap portion of the cap. I hate that a cap should include mechanics that may never even be of benefit. Perhaps if it were reworked to make it so our negative hp couldn't be pushed past a certain limit, and then add in the auto-heal, rather than unconsciousness extending by our cha score. I still wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't hate it. The mini no-fail addition would be most welcome.