Throw Your Weight Around

[CThruTheEgo]

I see your running buckler. Do you think it's an issue running TWF?

No. This is the current to-hit formula:

Player’s chance to hit: (Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 20% proficiency bonus, rounded to nearest 5%

As the player's attack bonus goes up, the overall chance to hit increases only by a little. As the target's armor class goes up, the overall chance to hit goes way down. And the end result is rounded to the nearest 5%, which means a small increase in attack bonus may not even result in a greater chance to hit. So the player's attack bonus is far less significant than the target's armor class. Let's look at the effects of the to-hit penalty from two weapon fighting as an example.

Assuming you have the two weapon fighting feat (because why would you be two weapon fighting without it?), the to-hit penalty for both hands is -4/-4 when wielding a non-light weapon in the offhand and without oversized two weapon fighting. A difference of 4 in the formula above will end up being around 1%, which is unlikely to change the final chance to hit because it is rounded to the nearest 5%.

So let's use an attack bonus of 60 (including the -4 twf penalty) as an example, which is very easy to achieve by pretty much anyone at endgame.

(60 + 10.5)/(target AC * 2) + 20%
70.5/(target's AC * 2) + 20%
35.25/target's AC + 20%

Now let's try a few different numbers for mob AC (I have no idea what mob ACs actually are).

35.25/60 + 20% = 78.75%, rounded to 80%
35.25/50 + 20% = 90.5%, rounded to 90%
35.25/40 + 20% = 108.125%, rounded to 100%

Now let's do the same thing without the -4 penalty from twf, which would be an attack bonus of 64.

(64 + 10.5)/(target AC * 2) + 20%
74.5/(target's AC * 2) + 20%
37.25/target's AC + 20%

37.25/60 + 20% = 82.08%, rounded to 80%
37.25/50 + 20% = 94.5%, rounded to 95%
37.25/40 + 20% = 113.125%, rounded to 100%

Since each of these is rounded to the nearest 5%, the attack penalty from twf only made a difference when the AC was 50, and the result was a +5% chance to hit.

The big unknown here is mob AC. Now I don't know what range of AC various mobs have, but I do know that on all my main characters (links in sig for full build details) as well as my less well built/geared alts, I never have trouble killing anything. Which means if I am missing, it's not enough to make a difference in my ability to kill mobs and complete quests. This leads me to believe that mob ACs are generally not that high and an attack bonus of 60-70ish will do just fine for the vast majority of content.

The new to-hit formula essentially minimized the value of player attack bonus. This was done to make the game more accessible to new players. And the benefits of someing like oversized twf, the penalty from twf, or starting with a low to-hit stat (e.g. 8 strength) are basically meaningless now because minor increases don't change your final chance to hit by much, if at all.

[jadiusmaximus]

No. This is the current to-hit formula:



As the player's attack bonus goes up, the overall chance to hit increases only by a little. As the target's armor class goes up, the overall chance to hit goes way down. And the end result is rounded to the nearest 5%, which means a small increase in attack bonus may not even result in a greater chance to hit. So the player's attack bonus is far less significant than the target's armor class. Let's look at the effects of the to-hit penalty from two weapon fighting as an example.

Assuming you have the two weapon fighting feat (because why would you be two weapon fighting without it?), the to-hit penalty for both hands is -4/-4 when wielding a non-light weapon in the offhand and without oversized two weapon fighting. A difference of 4 in the formula above will end up being around 1%, which is unlikely to change the final chance to hit because it is rounded to the nearest 5%.

So let's use an attack bonus of 60 (including the -4 twf penalty) as an example, which is very easy to achieve by pretty much anyone at endgame.

(60 + 10.5)/(target AC * 2) + 20%
70.5/(target's AC * 2) + 20%
35.25/target's AC + 20%

Now let's try a few different numbers for mob AC (I have no idea what mob ACs actually are).

35.25/60 + 20% = 78.75%, rounded to 80%
35.25/50 + 20% = 90.5%, rounded to 90%
35.25/40 + 20% = 108.125%, rounded to 100%

Now let's do the same thing without the -4 penalty from twf, which would be an attack bonus of 64.

(64 + 10.5)/(target AC * 2) + 20%
74.5/(target's AC * 2) + 20%
37.25/target's AC + 20%

37.25/60 + 20% = 82.08%, rounded to 80%
37.25/50 + 20% = 94.5%, rounded to 95%
37.25/40 + 20% = 113.125%, rounded to 100%

Since each of these is rounded to the nearest 5%, the attack penalty from twf only made a difference when the AC was 50, and the result was a +5% chance to hit.

The big unknown here is mob AC. Now I don't know what range of AC various mobs have, but I do know that on all my main characters (links in sig for full build details) as well as my less well built/geared alts, I never have trouble killing anything. Which means if I am missing, it's not enough to make a difference in my ability to kill mobs and complete quests. This leads me to believe that mob ACs are generally not that high and an attack bonus of 60-70ish will do just fine for the vast majority of content.

The new to-hit formula essentially minimized the value of player attack bonus. This was done to make the game more accessible to new players. And the benefits of someing like oversized twf, the penalty from twf, or starting with a low to-hit stat (e.g. 8 strength) are basically meaningless now because minor increases don't change your final chance to hit by much, if at all.

holy ****...well at least i can reroll and drop oversized..thanks!

[Powskier]

9 mnk/ 8 ftr /3 fav soul ... eight fighter levels req. for balanced monk w dwarf axe. So build is based around that. I put fav soul for a little xtra heal/saves/spell points in epic. A Ranger Tempest instead of Fighter, I hear is real nice too. Either has improved evasion, & great wheapon speed. Fighter DCs are to low for epic ,unless really built up..go with evasion rgn or monk ;or the heavy armor/shield , whatever style you like. The new shield tree is rather potent...oh *WHEAPON is spelled wrong ,,grrr

[IronClan]

The trap with throw your weight around is that you are going against the grain and fighting the current of what the game rewards most. You cheat yourself out of tacticals, trip and Stunning blow once you start using them every fight are far too powerful in harder content to neglect. You're costing yourself much more in survival by not being able to trip an EE mob, it's one less attack hitting you every fight, one less source of incoming damage. Same with Stun, except Stun also comes with a +50% DPS boost that makes Mobs go down much faster. Greater two handed fighting or Two weapon fighting both have stat prerequisites so you end up going against the grain there as well.

Power Attack requires 13 STR and Precision 13 DEX, you often want BOTH of these, but certainly at least 1, so it's really hard not to make STR your damage stat. Or you have to drop a +5 tome and fit all your STR and DEX required feats into 15, 18 and 3 epics feat slots. I've done this and it's a rare build that doesn't want to use Epic feats for better stuff than combat style feats. It's also really clunky because Cleaves require Power Attack. potentially leading to a scenario where you are trying to Jam PA/Cleave/Greater Cleave and 3 Combat style feats into levels 15 through 27 feat slots. This leads to potential BAB requirement issues with other feats (Improved critical) as well as issues picking up the better Epic feats.

As you can tell I've rolled and played multiple Throw your Weight Around builds trying for a synergy that ultimately is simply not there. In every case the build ends up wanting, and lacking major tools.

In the end the difference between a CON based or STR based Dwarf is most likely to be 7 level ups and up to 6 (almost never actually 6) Destiny Stats... You're very unlikely to take "great stat" on a Melee build there are too many much better choices for feats. So about 6 modifier is all you're really getting out of the investment. If you think about it, this is a VERY insignificant difference (6 more damage, and a couple hundred HP's), in benefits. While price you pay is far more significant.

I wish it worked better, allowing it to work for tacticals would be a start.

[unbongwah]

I've been experimenting with ideas for CON(TYWA)+INT(KtA)-based Vanguards, since VG DCs are based on whatever's your highest stat and KtA boosts them further. It works...kinda...but it feels very much like a flavor gimp looking for a pretext to exist, esp. considering how many APs it costs to get both TYWA (18 APs) and KtA (6-8).

[jadiusmaximus]

I guess I was specifically looking at the Ravager and Visage of Terror. Seems sweet to then use TYWA and just do the best i can.
Yeah..i don't know..it seems odd that Harper gets int to both and dwarf only gets damage. But i'm no expert.well..i'm not even a novice...

[IronClan]

I've been experimenting with ideas for CON(TYWA)+INT(KtA)-based Vanguards, since VG DCs are based on whatever's your highest stat and KtA boosts them further. It works...kinda...but it feels very much like a flavor gimp looking for a pretext to exist, esp. considering how many APs it costs to get both TYWA (18 APs) and KtA (6-8).

Agree, its the same going against the grain thing. With Vanguard specifically you're investing in tactical DC's for stunning shield you really want to maximize this by having that investment also apply to trip, and stunning blow. I have a Vanguard Dwarf doing exactly this, he's STR based because the 200 hp is just not worth having a lower stunning blow and trip DC. With all the tacticals this build is a BEAST, shield bash stun, vorpal 5% stun from capstone, stunning blow and trip is powerful, with throw your weight around its missing the last two, and is not nearly as powerful because you can't cycle as much CC in each fight.

TYWA should apply to tactics. Or maybe even better turn it into a Divine might/know the angles like ability (with anti requisite).

[unbongwah]

My view is TYWA should either (A) sub CON for STR on tactics DCs or (B) be like PDK training, provide a partial bonus to DCs if your CON is higher than STR. Either way, it should stack with KtA. Furthermore, it should be available earlier, or maybe the effects are staggered by rank: e.g., first rank of dwarven racial weapon enhs provides CON-to-hit, second rank provides CON-to-dmg, etc.

[jadiusmaximus]

My view is TYWA should either (A) sub CON for STR on tactics DCs or (B) be like PDK training, provide a partial bonus to DCs if your CON is higher than STR. Either way, it should stack with KtA. Furthermore, it should be available earlier, or maybe the effects are staggered by rank: e.g., first rank of dwarven racial weapon enhs provides CON-to-hit, second rank provides CON-to-dmg, etc.

I definitely feel gimped working to get TYWA compared to my rogue running KTA. Frustrating..but I just think how fun it will be to Kill with Fear later on..heh. oh well.

[CrackedIce]

Or maybe throw for weight around should also provide 1.5 benefit for tactical dcs using your con modifier. I.e replaces strength for DC of tactics

[RTFM]

I've done four builds with "Throw your weight around":

1. Dwarf pali16/rogue4. SWF dwarven axes. Not bad. Haste boost and No Mercy from rogue acro line. Good healing lots of damage with Zeal and Holy Sword.

2. Pure Barb, SWF dwarven axes. Very fun. Very easy to level. Did not spend any time at cap eTR'd to build #3 below. Ravenger line for the Terror PK with CON based save.

3. Pure Barb (eTR of above), SWF Warhammers (using CITW hammer 99% of the time). Very fun, very easy to lvl again. Ravenger line for the Terror PK with CON based save.

4. 12 fighter, 6 monk, 2 pali. Centered kensai SWF Dwarven Axes. Lots of damage, but because of lack of significant PRR, more challenging to play than the above three builds. A lot more clicky intensive (Haste boost from ninja spy, shadow form from ninja spy, displacement clickies, etc.). At lvl 28 with all the orchard gear, able to still land stunning blows on 50%+ EE mobs, even with only 40 some STR buffed. CON sits at 59 with ship buffs only. All +70 saves (fort save is silly something like 85) with evasion its solid there. But after running Medium and Heavy armor on the above builds this build seems to take a lot more damage AND have much less healing amp. Fun but challenging.

All of the above using twisted Sense Weakness, Consecration, Healing Ground (or whatever its called), and Cocoon. Max CON, STR, and rest into WIS, and all lvls up into CON. The most survivable is the barb build, because of the crazy healing amp they can get. All seem to do similar damage. My favorite of all of them was #3 Pure Barb SWF Warhammers, running in LD. Only issue is you will always be trying to figure out how to up that will save on that build, and looking for any way to do it. But all those builds are fun. Right now have the #4 build FTR at cap, staying there for a while to run MOD's. Geared out with all the Orchard gear, its a beast for sure hits very hard with Thunderholm DA, lots of fun zerging EE. But, because of the lack of full on heal amp you will find yourself scrambling at times, but its still lots of fun.

I'm looking to make a dwarf tank, and I was intrigued by the dwarven Throw Your Weight Around enhancement as a way to get a bit more DPS. It is a bit expensive to get to (18 AP), but the abilities you pick along the way will all help you add to your to-hit and damage as well, and the dwarf tree has a lot of tanky enhancements, so I don't see that as a problem.

I'm currently running a pure fighter stalwart defender build with the plan to get all the S&B and THF feats to take advantage of dwarven axes. Unfortunately, I need to get my STR to 17 for the feats, but after this I plan on putting everything into CON.

Has anybody tried anything like this? Is it worth the investment? Would those 18 AP be better spent in the Kensei tree?

[ToastyFred]

I would never even CONSIDER Throw Your Weight Around if not for the Occult Slayer's Mind Over Magic core ability.

If I were making ANY other kind of Dwarf Melee/Tank type, I'd go with maxing STR instead of CON.

[cru121]

I would never even CONSIDER Throw Your Weight Around if not for the Occult Slayer's Mind Over Magic core ability.

If I were making ANY other kind of Dwarf Melee/Tank type, I'd go with maxing STR instead of CON.

imo tywa works nicely on the bard build linked in the second post. ymmv

[IronClan]

I would never even CONSIDER Throw Your Weight Around if not for the Occult Slayer's Mind Over Magic core ability.

If I were making ANY other kind of Dwarf Melee/Tank type, I'd go with maxing STR instead of CON.

Unless there's some new FOTM brokenness about it, Spell Resistance is not a very good ability to base a build around, let alone take a 41AP Capstone for. I keep seeing people who seem to think SR is amazing to have and I have to wonder if they think it reduces magic spell damage spells or something?

Basically having high SR means you don't get Held about once a week, when you run into the one rare mob caster that casts hold. This assumes you don't make the save without SR.

EVERYTHING that SR accomplishes can be better acomplished by making your Saves, and there are multiple ways you can make your saves without hurting your DPS, even perhaps increasing it (Divine Grace, and Divine Might, OR Know the Angles + Insightful Reflexes for example).

The FB capstone and the Rav T5 pretty much make Mind over Magic a big huge loser. The fact that you would have to spend 41 AP's in the OS tree which is rife with underpowered and overpriced abilities... (look at the T5 strike that costs 50 weapon bond LOL what a horrible single shot attack (I hope it's at least a Whirlwind attack sized 360 degree cleave for that cost), and in a game where single attacks are almost never very good unless they also are on adrenaline or have some form of CC or lasting boost to them).

[unbongwah]

EVERYTHING that SR accomplishes can be better acomplished by making your Saves

There are a few spells with no DC check, only a Spell Pen check, such as OID and Energy Drain. Death Ward protects against ED, but only SR or spell absorption protect against OID.

there are multiple ways you can make your saves without hurting your DPS, even perhaps increasing it (Divine Grace, and Divine Might, OR Know the Angles + Insightful Reflexes for example).

Divine Grace is not an option for barbs, sadly. And Div Might & KtA have nothing to do with saves, unless your point is boosting CHA / INT will also boost your saves if you have DG / Insightful Reflexes. Except most spells with Spell Pen checks aren't Reflex-based, they're Will- or Fort-based, so it's an apples-to-oranges comparison in any case to bring in Insightful Reflexes. Boosting Will saves are challenging for a barb; IIRC, there's a PnP feat which lets you sub CON for WIS on Will saves - wish DDO had that!

I do agree that OS is underpowered compared to FB and Ravager, though, and could use some rework so the defensive / anti-magic / healing capabilities were actually worth the DPS hit. And I'm not disagreeing that CON-based dwarf is still a flavor / gimp build choice, no matter how you slice it.

[IronClan]

There are a few spells with no DC check, only a Spell Pen check, such as OID and Energy Drain. Death Ward protects against ED, but only SR or spell absorption protect against OID.

Divine Grace is not an option for barbs, sadly. And Div Might & KtA have nothing to do with saves, unless your point is boosting CHA / INT will also boost your saves if you have DG / Insightful Reflexes.

Yes that was the point. Yeah Barb's can't use it of course, I stepped in that my bad, I started talking generally about SR without remembering I would be leaving myself open to that. I keep forgetting that the DDO forums require a medicine advertizement like disclaimer after every statement

Disclaimer: SR is not worth 41 AP's but it does have some minor uses like that one time when you got Otto's irresistible cast on you, the one time a week you get Held, The first minute of an EE FoT from dance balls cast by Silence, and when you forget to sip Deathward flask etc. Do not use while operating heavy machinery, may result in Gimpness and feelings of underpoweredness. If underpowered feelings persist immediately stop spending 41ap's in OS and consult the forums. May cause inability to take Uber FB capstone, and interfere with other better enhancements, common side effects include low kill count, Epeenile Dysfunction, and premature declines. If play sessions last more than 4 hours, consult your Wife and give her a kiss for being awesome.