Throw Your Weight Around

[shweppy]

I'm looking to make a dwarf tank, and I was intrigued by the dwarven Throw Your Weight Around enhancement as a way to get a bit more DPS. It is a bit expensive to get to (18 AP), but the abilities you pick along the way will all help you add to your to-hit and damage as well, and the dwarf tree has a lot of tanky enhancements, so I don't see that as a problem.

I'm currently running a pure fighter stalwart defender build with the plan to get all the S&B and THF feats to take advantage of dwarven axes. Unfortunately, I need to get my STR to 17 for the feats, but after this I plan on putting everything into CON.

Has anybody tried anything like this? Is it worth the investment? Would those 18 AP be better spent in the Kensei tree?

[Ancient]

There is a nerf incomming, but this is a solid dwarf build:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...efender-parody

[Violith]

I'm looking to make a dwarf tank, and I was intrigued by the dwarven Throw Your Weight Around enhancement as a way to get a bit more DPS. It is a bit expensive to get to (18 AP), but the abilities you pick along the way will all help you add to your to-hit and damage as well, and the dwarf tree has a lot of tanky enhancements, so I don't see that as a problem.

I'm currently running a pure fighter stalwart defender build with the plan to get all the S&B and THF feats to take advantage of dwarven axes. Unfortunately, I need to get my STR to 17 for the feats, but after this I plan on putting everything into CON.

Has anybody tried anything like this? Is it worth the investment? Would those 18 AP be better spent in the Kensei tree?

... I fail to see how it'd be more dps, overall, buffing str/con are relatively the same, however overwhelming crit requires 23 str, I suppose it can be done with only 17str with a +6 tome...but you havent mentioned having one of those. other then that I dont see con adding more dmg compared to a str build. it'd add a few more hp but I cant see it adding more then say 200 hp at 28, and relatively no added DPS.

[painkiller3]

There is a nerf incomming, but this is a solid dwarf build:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...efender-parody

is that official or just rumoured because Throw Your Weight Around is strong? i run a version of the Occult Slayer Dwarf Barbarian and with enhancements, etc etc it's quite easy to get your CON higher than your strenght, while maintianing the 23 that is necessary for Overwhelming Critical

[Ancient]

is that official or just rumoured because Throw Your Weight Around is strong? i run a version of the Occult Slayer Dwarf Barbarian and with enhancements, etc etc it's quite easy to get your CON higher than your strenght, while maintianing the 23 that is necessary for Overwhelming Critical

I almost posted a link to your build as well (You are the one who soloed WGU on the pure barb, right?). The nerf I speak of is regarding single weapon fighting and shield mastery, so I don't think it will impact your TWF barb build at all.

[painkiller3]

I almost posted a link to your build as well (You are the one who soloed WGU on the pure barb, right?). The nerf I speak of is regarding single weapon fighting and shield mastery, so I don't think it will impact your TWF barb build at all.

no wasn't mine, i just play a (much) weaker version of it...

[Qhualor]

... I fail to see how it'd be more dps, overall, buffing str/con are relatively the same, however overwhelming crit requires 23 str, I suppose it can be done with only 17str with a +6 tome...but you havent mentioned having one of those. other then that I dont see con adding more dmg compared to a str build. it'd add a few more hp but I cant see it adding more then say 200 hp at 28, and relatively no added DPS.

You use your con modifier instead of str modifier to determine damage. Basically, instead of putting points in str, you put them in con. The added benefit is that you will have higher HP and fortitude saves than you probably normally would if you went str base instead.

In the case of the OP who wants to make a S&B tank, it could be difficult still needing points for dex, cha, int and wis without knowing his tome situation.

[shweppy]

You use your con modifier instead of str modifier to determine damage. Basically, instead of putting points in str, you put them in con. The added benefit is that you will have higher HP and fortitude saves than you probably normally would if you went str base instead.

In the case of the OP who wants to make a S&B tank, it could be difficult still needing points for dex, cha, int and wis without knowing his tome situation.

I'm first life with no tomes as of yet. I do have a 32-point build unlocked, with starting stats:
STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 20
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 6

The INT was to get close to the 13 where I can use Combat Expertise. Skill points were in Int/Jump until I hit a 10 Jump, then leftovers to Spot. Starting with 16 STR is to fill the gap until I get TYWA, as well as getting me close to the TWF feats.

I'm currently a level 6 fighter, and was planning on staying pure the whole way, spreading the enhancements between Stalwart Defender (main focus), Dwarf, and splashing into Kensei for some of the haste boosts. My main weapon of choice is Dwarven Axe with a tower shield, though I do enjoy taking out my Keen Falchion of Bloodletting when I want some extra deeps. There are a lot of boosts to your CON and damage when S&B in stalwart defender stance that I was planning on taking advantage of.

I still have my Heart of Wood, so I am not opposed to LR'ing later if/when I need to change my stats around.

[Violith]

You use your con modifier instead of str modifier to determine damage. Basically, instead of putting points in str, you put them in con. The added benefit is that you will have higher HP and fortitude saves than you probably normally would if you went str base instead.

In the case of the OP who wants to make a S&B tank, it could be difficult still needing points for dex, cha, int and wis without knowing his tome situation.

I know what it does, but the OP Said his decision was from a DPS standpoint, which IMO doesnt make sense as while its currently possible to get higher con then str, I cant see it being higher then 6-8 pts fully buffed out. which while viable doesnt seem like a worthwhile investment except for flavor, as just about any tactile feat requires str for DC so you basically lock yourself out of those, for about only 224hp and +4 fort, and +4 dmg with the throw your wieght enhancement.

[Qhualor]

I know what it does, but the OP Said his decision was from a DPS standpoint, which IMO doesnt make sense as while its currently possible to get higher con then str, I cant see it being higher then 6-8 pts fully buffed out. which while viable doesnt seem like a worthwhile investment except for flavor, as just about any tactile feat requires str for DC so you basically lock yourself out of those, for about only 224hp and +4 fort, and +4 dmg with the throw your wieght enhancement.

OP wont be able to get OC. off the the top of my head and glancing quickly through all the feat lists, I only saw 1 with a str minimum requirement that a dps S&B would benefit from. str requirement is too high when he needs to invest in dex and con. str wouldn't necessarily be a dumpstat, but you could get by with a 13 str plus an item or something similar to keep it even and not be overburdened. after that its making sure to have a 13 Int for CE, but I would think PA would be more beneficial dealing more damage. in which case that's more points to put elsewhere. I could see both sides to it. than debatable as to how much to invest in cha for umd and intimidation and wisdom for saves.

OP with no tomes and a first lifer is going to have some work cut out for him.

[shweppy]

OP wont be able to get OC. off the the top of my head and glancing quickly through all the feat lists, I only saw 1 with a str minimum requirement that a dps S&B would benefit from. str requirement is too high when he needs to invest in dex and con. str wouldn't necessarily be a dumpstat, but you could get by with a 13 str plus an item or something similar to keep it even and not be overburdened. after that its making sure to have a 13 Int for CE, but I would think PA would be more beneficial dealing more damage. in which case that's more points to put elsewhere. I could see both sides to it. than debatable as to how much to invest in cha for umd and intimidation and wisdom for saves.

OP with no tomes and a first lifer is going to have some work cut out for him.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I've only been playing for a couple weeks, so it's difficult to keep up with all the intricacies of this system. It sounds like this build may be difficult to make work as a first-lifer.

As for specific build notes, I will be investing in the THF feat line since dwarven axe gets the cleave benefits when S&B'ing, so that means I have a minimum STR requirement of 17. Combat Expertise is situationally nice for the AC boost, but I was taking it more for access to improved trip/sunder. In retrospect this may not be wise since these skills use STR for their DC.

It looks like for this life I may be better off being a straight up STR/CON tank, and I will likely TR as soon as I hit 20 and get a few past lives under my belt.

[autochthon]

"Throw Your Weight Around" is more a flavor enhancement than anything else. There aren't many situations it would be superior to simply using strength.

[FestusHood]

I tried a build just like that and was actually pretty happy with it.

Had a con score in the mid 60's at level 28, without any particularly special gear. +3 con tome.

Had about 1500 hit points, with little or no contribution from epic destinies. Around 180 ac and a little over 100 prr.

For all intents and purposes unkillable on epic hard. Dps wasn't stellar, but wasn't that bad either. Did ok in lowish epic elites as well, in a tanking role.

Can't remember for sure but i doubt i had overwhelming critical. On a build like that, once you factor in glancing blows and shield bashes, it's sure to not amount to more than 5% of your total dps. In fact, you will lose more dps by switching from power attack to combat expertise, i have no doubt. I had combat expertise, but rarely had it on.

Didn't use any tactical feats myself. It's unlikely you will be able to hit epic elite dc's on them anyway on your first run through, and on epic hard you don't need them.

I just wanted to try it, and actually enjoyed playing it very much.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Just TRd a WF 20 Arti into a 2Rog/2Ftr/8(16)Arti with SWF, B-Sword build with Max Str, Int (Insightful Reflex) and Con very beastly for Heroic but started thinking right after I rolled it that a Dwarf might be fun too with TYWA.

Considering that OC may have the 23 Str req removed or reduced in the future I was thinking a Dwarf Arti Build with similar or same split but drop B-Sword for Construct Essence...Max Con, 16ish Int,(Insightful Reflex), 13 Str, rest in Cha (Force of Personality maybe?) Utilizing Insightful Strikes.

Feats something like PA, Cleave, GCleave, SWF, ISWF, GSWF, Construct Essence, Insightful Reflex, Quicken and whatever else.

[Psiandron]

I haven't done it myself, but I have seen it done a couple of times with Dwarf barbarians. The current barbarian trees are just not all that and one of their big problems is that they do not offer an increase to strength, only to Con. TYWA offers a way to make somewhat more use of the current class enhancements. And while I doubt that such a character would be as fully effective in terms of dps as a str-based character might be, I imagine that with HP it'd have it wouldn't die very often.

That's my non-expert opinion anyway.

[shweppy]

Lots of good feedback here, particularly with regards to Combat Expertise. By dropping those and the improved tactical feats, then maybe I'll have enough for the Whirlwind line which seems like it should make up some of the DPS difference.

[jadiusmaximus]

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but I'm just looking at the fun of TYWA now. Seeing as it doesnt add to hit like harper does for INT, is TYWA even really possible to use? Seems like when STR does both hit/dam that stacking con to run this would really not work. Unless of course +hit isnt really a big deal...but i've only just started playing so really dont know.

[stoerm]

To hit is not a big deal if you don't dump ST altogether, are proficient with the weapon and have a reasonable BAB. For a dwarven fighter or barbarian you're totally fine. If you're a wizard you might have to put thought into it.

[CThruTheEgo]

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but I'm just looking at the fun of TYWA now. Seeing as it doesnt add to hit like harper does for INT, is TYWA even really possible to use? Seems like when STR does both hit/dam that stacking con to run this would really not work. Unless of course +hit isnt really a big deal...but i've only just started playing so really dont know.

To-hit is essentially a non-issue today. The Count of Monte Cristo (link in my sig) is a bard that uses cha for damage and str for to-hit. I started with 12 str originally and played from levels 1-28 doing every single quest (excluding some raids, just because I didn't want to wait for a group) on an elite streak. I never had any trouble hitting or killing anything. If I ever did have misses, it wasn't significant enough to notice. So throw your weight around should work just fine.

[jadiusmaximus]

To-hit is essentially a non-issue today. The Count of Monte Cristo (link in my sig) is a bard that uses cha for damage and str for to-hit. I started with 12 str originally and played from levels 1-28 doing every single quest (excluding some raids, just because I didn't want to wait for a group) on an elite streak. I never had any trouble hitting or killing anything. If I ever did have misses, it wasn't significant enough to notice. So throw your weight around should work just fine.

I see your running buckler. Do you think it's an issue running TWF?