Silly question: any reason to pure fighter?

[Xianio]

While other builds will be easier I think the pure Fighter is really fun. I don't suggest the SWF style though. While it's very good, I think S&B is better because of how many feats pure fighters get.

I have one that's got all of the meaningful shield feats: Bash and Mastery (gives some extra direct dps and 8% doublestrike)
I go Bastard Sword (or Dwarven Waraxe works too): This gives you cleaves and auto attacks glancing blows e.g. some AoE damage
I also get all of the Two-handed weapon fighting feats: This boosts your glancing blow damage e.g. more AoE damage
Finally this opens up the tier 5 Stalwart enhancement "Block and Cut" which gives an enormous 25% doublestrike bonus that can be maintained 50% of the time.

All of this makes for some impressive dps numbers.

If you're willing to go full-tilt into Epic content you can get some pretty crazy numbers going.

Unyielding will give another 7% doublestrike (twisted in)
Crusader also gives another chunk of doublestrike (between 1 and 50% but that's not shield based)

All told, on a first life toon you "could" reach as much as 82% doublestrike + glancing blows + shield bashes while using the bastard sword "First Blood" or between 72 and 77% while using any other Bsword/Dwarven Axe.

That adds up.

[unbongwah]

While other builds will be easier I think the pure Fighter is really fun. I don't suggest the SWF style though. While it's very good, I think S&B is better because of how many feats pure fighters get.

I've done both S&B w/THF (Block & Cut) and SWF (Keen Edge) w/d.axes on a pure ftr; and there's no question the SWF build had better DPS. The extra doublestrike from B&C and LSM didn't make up the difference of SWF's advantages (+30% atk speed, +200% STR bonus) coupled with Keen Edge + Kensei capstone. Part of the problem is doublestrikes don't proc on Cleaves, so while my S&B single-target DPS was all right (though still behind SWF), I was at a disadvantage vs. mobs. And this was on a lvl 20 build with "only" STR 50; I'm sure the disparities would've become more pronounced on something with better stats. The only real drawback to SWF (apart from losing the defensive benefits of S&B) was the Cleave animations are slower.

I could've goosed my S&B DPS a bit higher had I taken the Kensei capstone (+15% doublestrike) instead of SD's; but that would've meant dumping the dwarven racial tree entirely (inc. +5% DPS from Fortress, IIRC) and giving up some feats for Weap Foc/Spec to invest in Kensei enhs.

I really hope U23 gives non-Swashbuckling S&B builds a good DPS boost, because they really need it.

[Xianio]

SWF's advantages (+30% atk speed, +200% STR bonus) coupled with Keen Edge + Kensei capstone.
I really hope U23 gives non-Swashbuckling S&B builds a good DPS boost, because they really need it.

I think S&B is better because of how many feats pure fighters get --- I should clarify. I didn't mean just as a dps tool.

The upcoming changes to S&B means a whole lot of extra defense (+45 PRR/MRR with feats and a 100% improvement vs evasion related spells) and with SWF taking a hit (from 200% to 150% ability score) the DPS difference will be reduced. I also think that, while the Dwarf tree is great, the 16 additional doublestrike is the better call (but I'm not doing any fancy math to back that up).

Finally, if you had plans to go into the Crusader tree, which is probably the best idea for a pure fighter, then Keen Edge becomes redundant as Crusader offers the same buff. That way you can get both the increased threat range and 25% doublestrike.

[unbongwah]

I also think that, while the Dwarf tree is great, the 16 additional doublestrike is the better call (but I'm not doing any fancy math to back that up).

Doublestrike bonuses only apply to regular atks, not to cleaves or glancing blows; whereas I think the extra DPS from Dwarf Fortress applied to everything. But it is such a PITA figuring that out.

Finally, if you had plans to go into the Crusader tree, which is probably the best idea for a pure fighter, then Keen Edge becomes redundant as Crusader offers the same buff.

Keen Edge stacks with Celestial Champion.

[Inoukchuk]

I've never explored this idea. It's a good one, ty.

It gets really sick when you consider adding bard for Swashbuckler enhancements. Then you can fight sword & buckler and get all the advantages of the shield feats + all the advantages of the SWF feats (which are also new). And Swashbuckler can allow you very nice crit range/multiplier bonuses depending on your weapon choice (the one for rapier stacks with keen edge from kensei since one effects range and the other multiplier). Or go dagger, either way. regardless, give strong consideration to 2 fvs or 4 paly levels for divine might (and possibly divine grace).

[Nightmanis]

I've done both S&B w/THF (Block & Cut) and SWF (Keen Edge) w/d.axes on a pure ftr; and there's no question the SWF build had better DPS. The extra doublestrike from B&C and LSM didn't make up the difference of SWF's advantages (+30% atk speed, +200% STR bonus) coupled with Keen Edge + Kensei capstone. Part of the problem is doublestrikes don't proc on Cleaves, so while my S&B single-target DPS was all right (though still behind SWF), I was at a disadvantage vs. mobs. And this was on a lvl 20 build with "only" STR 50; I'm sure the disparities would've become more pronounced on something with better stats. The only real drawback to SWF (apart from losing the defensive benefits of S&B) was the Cleave animations are slower.

I could've goosed my S&B DPS a bit higher had I taken the Kensei capstone (+15% doublestrike) instead of SD's; but that would've meant dumping the dwarven racial tree entirely (inc. +5% DPS from Fortress, IIRC) and giving up some feats for Weap Foc/Spec to invest in Kensei enhs.

I really hope U23 gives non-Swashbuckling S&B builds a good DPS boost, because they really need it.

After only watching the Cetus pure pally Breaking the Ranks EE video, I'm going to say that S&B gained a monumental amount of dps simply because now they can stand still for longer. The glancing blows while moving change is just icing on the cake for that.

What you said about doublestrike not working on cleaves or glancing blows though makes me realize even more why my old S&B didn't put out good offensive numbers. If I've got 100% doublestrike, and it's only useful when I'm autoattacking a single target (which at the time, same with glancing blows) and I've got a pack of mobs on me then of course I'm going to be useless.

[bsquishwizzy]

I've borked my pure dwarven fighter build (first life, 28 pts, VIP with +3 strength tome purchased).

I've borked it in a way that seems pretty obvious: 20lvls of fighter requires healing. Unfortunately, having played more pnp than DDO, I assumed a great armor class would bridge the gap. I also assumed the Kensei tree was a "fighter" tree and didn't realize it was the go-to tree to multiclass fighters.

I also didn't even consider multi-classing because I thought the capstone would stack with the 40pt enhancement in the Kensei tree. Whoops.

So, I'm now in Epic and just not cutting the mustard. I've decided to resurrect with the lesser heart of wood and have been playing around with different builds. I'd like to respec, at this point, as a constitution-based sword-and-boarder. I'd taken some feats w/two-handed fighting, and will drop those. I'll also invest the requisite Kensei points into the Stalwart Defender tree to get that 40pter.

Essentially, the fact of the matter is that the upper level Kensei skills are not useful enough, in terms of DPS, to my character. While the damage is nice, it's just not enough to overcome my guy's glaring weaknesses in a) HPs, b)self-healing c)lack of any useful skill for the party (like intimidate or even UMD). Right now, I can jump and swim.

So, I've been playing with the character planning app, and I have two questions: is there any reason I shouldn't just take rogue for two levels (1st as rogue, doesn't matter when 2nd, as I'm already in epic levels) to get the extra skill points, other than hit dice? Am I missing something or does this amount to taking a total of 12 less hit points for about 40 extra skill points? Really, I've been messing with this for hours and it seems that way. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong or missing something obvious.

Without reading all of the other advice here, and responding to the thread post the only thing wrong with a pure fighter is that you need a healer strapped to your backside in content past lvl 10, and you’ll need a rogue for traps on elite. And that’s about it. If the hjealbot requirement is an issue, then go in a different direction.

The trapping issue? That gets a little more complicated, and it is also a problem with most other classes and builds. Hence the reason for builds that include evasion being really synergistic with a straight-forward melee toon.

Kensai tree *is* a fighter tree for straight melee, but you’ve got to decide how you are going to use it. Right now – pre-AC changes – your best bet is to look to go with a nimble fighter with high dodge and double-strike to avoid being hit. Post AC changes…well, that might be a different matter. Kensai is made more for a nimble fighter, in my opinion.

Likewise, gear can also be a HUGE deciding factor. Any melee is going to have to be loaded to the gills with stuff like PRR, blur / displacement / ghostly, and dodge just to avoid getting hit, and mitigating damage when you do get hit. This is regardless of which direction you take.

As for HPs, your average , semi-gimped 28-pt fighter may have around 500 HP at lvl 20, and this is without a lot of specialized gear. Typically, when I build for a fighter, I try to make sure I have at least 100% fortification, the best Health item I can get my hands on, something that gets me stoneskin on demand (hello Anniversary cards and Green Steel MIN II) armor with a blue augment so I can slot-up the best PRR augment I can get, the best false-life Item I can get my hands on, and something with Vitality in it (hello Minos Legens) . Likewise, I’ve found that taking an extra toughness feat these days doesn’t hurt.

Then when investing in feats, try to take both cleaves, Power Attack, pick a fighting style and take it up to “Greater” (THF , TWF, etc.) and invest as much into critical damage as you can – anything that extends your critical threat range, and damage on a critical.

Then it becomes a matter of weapons effects. Make sure you have a stable of Paralyzing / Banishing / Disruption / Vorpal / Smiting weapons at your disposal, and this is especially true on anyone doing TWF. Because, on average, you can skimp on base damage a little and this will be covered over with weapons effects. On THF / SWF it is a nice perk but not as uber-critical as TWF (in my opinion).

Given what you’ve described thus far, my thoughts are that you are running into problems because you are kinda over your head in content (EE is rough even for experienced players), and you are probably not geared properly. Likewise, a 28-pt toon is not something I’d take into EE content based on the fact that a) it takes time to farm GOOD gear and this usually requires at least a second life, and b) even with EDs basic stats are nothing to sneeze at. Moving up with a second life and having a few more stat numbers to play with won’t hurt you in EE content, for sure. A lot of these guys who go into EE content one-shotting mobs and having 1000 HP are playing every frickin’ angle they can get to get these numbers. Most players don’t make that kind of investment initially. It takes time and knowledge to get to that point. So don’t place an undue burden on yourself to feel you need to get to that level right now at this exact moment.

Anyhow, that’s my thoughts.