Will Heavy Armor be better for defense than Pajamas after the rework? (Paladin)

[Maelodic]

Hey-o,

Planning out my Paladin and I can't figure out whether or not I should be centered- I'm looking at:
20 Pal (Probably strongest for heavy armor- one below this may be better for attacking)
19 Pal/1 Monk (Half-Elf+Ranger Dilly for 100% Offhand Chance - 19 Pal for CSW and not just Zeal/Holy Sword)
18 Pal/2 Monk (Centered, Evasion, Stances+2d6 more light damage)
15 Pal/3 Ranger/2 Monk (Centered, 100% Offhand, Haste Boost)
14 Pal/6 Monk (Unarmed, Shadow Fade)

Holy Sword PROBABLY won't work for unarmed, so centered would need to be with short swords. Based on crit profile, Khopesh would probably be weapon of choice when Holy Sword is in the equation without being centered.

If I have a high evasion save, based on the new PRR/MRR system that will be upcoming, would a Paladin fare betting in heavy armor or pajamas?
(Seems silly to be asking =P)

[Eth]

Guess that's hard to tell right now.
I can't wait for that update to hit lammania.
I definitely will test pure pally TWF in heavy armor and 15 pally/3rgr/2fgt TWF in heavy armor.
(Heavy armor will really shine if you use the shadowscale armor with shadowguardian upgrade)

Maybe 15pal/3rgr/2mnk if I have time. Those are the one I would consider for my toon.

[Maelodic]

Guess that's hard to tell right now.
I can't wait for that update to hit lammania.
I definitely will test pure pally TWF in heavy armor and 15 pally/3rgr/2fgt TWF in heavy armor.
(Heavy armor will really shine if you use the shadowscale armor with shadowguardian upgrade)

Maybe 15pal/3rgr/2mnk if I have time. Those are the one I would consider for my toon.

The Ranger/Monk combination is to easily get 110% offhand to maximize the light damage and your smites- though it's a double edged sword in taking less Paladin levels as it decreases both.

[Eth]

The Ranger/Monk combination is to easily get 110% offhand to maximize the light damage and your smites- though it's a double edged sword in taking less Paladin levels as it decreases both.

The problem I have with the monk combination is that you have to be centered for the 10% extra offhand which doesn't go well with the weapons I plan to use. On lamma it's easy to craft some TF shortswords or longswords for testing, but I don't think I can be bothered to redo my TF weapons on live.

I have the same thought about the light damage and really curious how they will scale.
20 paladin actually does look really potent although it loses 10% offhand vs. the 3 Rgr split, but the 4d6 + 10 melee power really make up for that.

Also not sure if it's better to go charisma or str based. Both have a lot pros and cons.

[Maelodic]

The problem I have with the monk combination is that you have to be centered for the 10% extra offhand which doesn't go well with the weapons I plan to use. On lamma it's easy to craft some TF shortswords or longswords for testing, but I don't think I can be bothered to redo my TF weapons on live.

I have the same thought about the light damage and really curious how they will scale.
20 paladin actually does look really potent although it loses 10% offhand vs. the 3 Rgr split.

Also not sure if it's better to go charisma or str based. Both have a lot pros and cons.

I must have missed the while centered part of Deft Strikes.

Based on the amount of AP spent- you could argue that going 21 AP in Half Elf+Ranger Dilly is alright for the 20% Heal Amp, Double Boosting, and 10% offhand to make up for it. With PTWF, all smites would always double proc. New Paladin won't really have much of anything in Stalwart at the moment, so that is definitely an option.

You also have to consider that non-centered misses out on A Dance of Flowers- though Khopesh+Holy Sword might outdamage Short Sword+Holy Sword+A Dance of Flowers

EDIT:

Also, I personally will be going STR based because I'll want my Paladin to be essentially unstoppable.

EDIT 2: CHA Based, dangit.

[Eth]

You also have to consider that non-centered misses out on A Dance of Flowers- though Khopesh+Holy Sword might outdamage Short Sword+Holy Sword+A Dance of Flowers

Don't know if I can fit that in anyway. Balanced attacks, Brace for Impact, Cocoon, Eternal Turning (for short quests primal scream) are my standard twists on fleshy TWF.

EDIT:

Also, I personally will be going STR based because I'll want my Paladin to be essentially unstoppable.

The kicker for me currently really is holy retribution, which requires 1 turn to be used. But you also want enough turns to have divine might going all the time.
2 points in Cha give you 1 turn. Every turn means 1 more smite due to holy retribution. And on a pure pally exalted smite is really powerful.

Also 2 points in Cha equal 1 Str due to DM. So you don't miss out on that much.

Also higher saves and charisma skills (Intim, UMD).

Str mod is not as important on a TWF as it is on a THF or SWF. You get the normal damage mod from it for mainhand and only .5 for your offhand.

I tend towards charisma currently.

[janave]

I must have missed the while centered part of Deft Strikes.

Based on the amount of AP spent- you could argue that going 21 AP in Half Elf+Ranger Dilly is alright for the 20% Heal Amp, Double Boosting, and 10% offhand to make up for it. With PTWF, all smites would always double proc. New Paladin won't really have much of anything in Stalwart at the moment, so that is definitely an option.

You also have to consider that non-centered misses out on A Dance of Flowers- though Khopesh+Holy Sword might outdamage Short Sword+Holy Sword+A Dance of Flowers

EDIT:

Also, I personally will be going STR based because I'll want my Paladin to be essentially unstoppable.

If you want a paladin to be unstoppable CHA makes more sense to me, unless unstoppable means something else for you .
I personally really hope they add some synergy into pallies for THF and more specifically Mauls. A big hammer guy would be interesting, and fitting for an "undead hunter".

[Maelodic]

Don't know if I can fit that in anyway. Balanced attacks, Brace for Impact, Cocoon, Eternal Turning (for short quests primal scream) are my standard twists on fleshy TWF.



The kicker for me currently really is holy retribution, which requires 1 turn to be used. But you also want enough turns to have divine might going all the time.
2 points in Cha give you 1 turn. Every turn means 1 more smite due to holy retribution. And on a pure pally exalted smite is really powerful.

Also 2 points in Cha equal 1 Str due to DM. So you don't miss out on that much.

Also higher saves and charisma skills (Intim, UMD).

Str is not as important on a TWF as it is on a THF or SWF. You get the normal damage mod from it for mainhand and only .5 for your offhand.

I tend towards charisma currently.

If you want a paladin to be unstoppable CHA makes more sense to me, unless unstoppable means something else for you .
I personally really hope they add some synergy into pallies for THF and more specifically Mauls. A big hammer guy would be interesting, and fitting for an "undead hunter".

I actually meant CHA based- it's early in the morning for me. =P

I'd only go STR based for THF since TWF favors other stats more than it's damage stat. Holy Retribution is nice, but I don't plan on using it all that much until epics when I get endless turning- even then I don't know if it will be all that useful unless they remove the HP requirement. Endless Smiting looks okay too- especially with high crit profile+TWF+tons of doublestrike.

[Eth]

I personally really hope they add some synergy into pallies for THF and more specifically Mauls. A big hammer guy would be interesting, and fitting for an "undead hunter".

Not paladin specific, but epic orchard coming...maybe epic shining devastation?

Although after seeing what they did with Epic 3BC I don't have much hope in that regard.

[Maelodic]

Guess that's hard to tell right now.
I can't wait for that update to hit lammania.
I definitely will test pure pally TWF in heavy armor and 15 pally/3rgr/2fgt TWF in heavy armor.
(Heavy armor will really shine if you use the shadowscale armor with shadowguardian upgrade)

Maybe 15pal/3rgr/2mnk if I have time. Those are the one I would consider for my toon.

Does DR apply after PRR/everything else? Get your PRR high enough, and Shadowguardian would make a pretty huge difference.

[Bingobong]

Hey-o,

Planning out my Paladin and I can't figure out whether or not I should be centered- I'm looking at:
20 Pal (Probably strongest for heavy armor- one below this may be better for attacking)
19 Pal/1 Monk (Half-Elf+Ranger Dilly for 100% Offhand Chance - 19 Pal for CSW and not just Zeal/Holy Sword)
18 Pal/2 Monk (Centered, Evasion, Stances+2d6 more light damage)
15 Pal/3 Ranger/2 Monk (Centered, 100% Offhand, Haste Boost)
14 Pal/6 Monk (Unarmed, Shadow Fade)

Holy Sword PROBABLY won't work for unarmed, so centered would need to be with short swords. Based on crit profile, Khopesh would probably be weapon of choice when Holy Sword is in the equation without being centered.

If I have a high evasion save, based on the new PRR/MRR system that will be upcoming, would a Paladin fare betting in heavy armor or pajamas?
(Seems silly to be asking =P)

The question you need to ask is if your toon is going to be using a heavy/tower shield or not. In spite of all the hype of heavy armor upgrades in the "Armor Up" DEV threads, heavy armor itself gets very little upgrade and the bulk of the buff is in heavy/tower shield. It should actually be called "Shield Up"

You only gain 30 prr/mrr over a pajama toon and 20 prr/mrr over a light armor toon when you change over to heavy armor, So if you're a TWF or THF evasion toon, the question is do you think 20-30 prr/mrr is worth giving up evasion. I think most people will say no to this.

[Maelodic]

The question you need to ask is if your toon is going to be using a heavy/tower shield or not. In spite of all the hype of heavy armor upgrades in the "Armor Up" DEV threads, heavy armor itself gets very little upgrade and the bulk of the buff is in heavy/tower shield. It should actually be called "Shield Up"

You only gain 30 prr/mrr over a pajama toon and 20 prr/mrr over a light armor toon when you change over to heavy armor, So if you're a TWF or THF evasion toon, the question is do you think 20-30 prr/mrr is worth giving up evasion. I think most people will say no to this.

Well- you don't really give up that because if you're in Earth Stance on a centered toon, you can still get 15 PRR from the stance and another 15 PRR from Iron Skin.

AC doesn't matter as much but for the sake of data, it looks like Heavy Armor can win out on that- and Shadow Guardian with high PRR should be pretty good. The drawback is obviously much more than the boon though- lack of Evasion as well as low dodge probably would be better than high PRR+Shadow Guardian+High AC

Heavy armor:
10 Base
62 Armor (Heavy shadowscale with 50% contribution from SaD)
8 Natural
3 Sacred Armor Mastery
5 Bulwark Aura
10 Protection
4 Insight
102 Total

Assuming DEX 34 and WIS 30 on a centered toon:
10 Base
11 Armor
8 Natural
3 Sacred Defender
5 Bulwark Aura
10 Protection
4 Insight
12 DEX
10 WIS
+20% Earth Stance
87 Total

[legendkilleroll]

The question you need to ask is if your toon is going to be using a heavy/tower shield or not. In spite of all the hype of heavy armor upgrades in the "Armor Up" DEV threads, heavy armor itself gets very little upgrade and the bulk of the buff is in heavy/tower shield. It should actually be called "Shield Up"

You only gain 30 prr/mrr over a pajama toon and 20 prr/mrr over a light armor toon when you change over to heavy armor, So if you're a TWF or THF evasion toon, the question is do you think 20-30 prr/mrr is worth giving up evasion. I think most people will say no to this.

Yeh i thought about this too and posted in the armor up #1 thread that going for heavy armors doesn't add alot more as you mentioned and without evasion your gonna be destroyed by spells unless you use a shield and this is where the problem Imo comes in, the DPS just isn't there when using a shield

[Maelodic]

You only gain 30 prr/mrr over a pajama toon and 20 prr/mrr over a light armor toon when you change over to heavy armor, So if you're a TWF or THF evasion toon, the question is do you think 20-30 prr/mrr is worth giving up evasion. I think most people will say no to this.

Reading through the thread again, heavy armor is going to give more than 30, it will be 30+6+24 (BaB)

So in total, that's a gain of 60 PRR/MRR over the 0 that pajamas give. Earth stance gives 15 innate- but otherwise you have to spend enhancements and twists to get more.

Heavy armor should really be considered based on that.

[Bingobong]

Well- you don't really give up that because if you're in Earth Stance on a centered toon, you can still get 15 PRR from the stance and another 15 PRR from Iron Skin.

Well if you don't give up prr, then it's even worst. My point is that a TWF or THF evasion toon will not likely give up evasion for the extra new 20-30 prr/mrr buff you get with going heavy armor. If that evasion toon was a monk and had the above you mentioned, then it would be even less reason to go heavy armor.

[Bingobong]

Reading through the thread again, heavy armor is going to give more than 30, it will be 30+6+24 (BaB)

So in total, that's a gain of 60 PRR/MRR over the 0 that pajamas give. Earth stance gives 15 innate- but otherwise you have to spend enhancements and twists to get more.

Heavy armor should really be considered based on that.

No you got it wrong. The BAB portion is already live, it is not part of the buff. Currently, we have :
Heavy Armor : PRR = BAB + 6
Medium Armor : PRR = 2/3 BAB + 4.
Light Armor : PRR = 1/2 BAB + 2.

What is new is the following buff added to the existing formula :
Heavy Armor : PRR 30
Medium Armor : PRR 20
Light Armor : PRR 10

I have a TWF evasion ranger wearing light armor. Going heavy armor means giving up evasion for 20 PRR/MRR from this new buff over what is already on live. Umm, no thanks.

[Psiandron]

Sev really hasn't said much about the whole armor-pass since he posted Diary #1.

While I do think that MRR may well be implemented at some point, I kind of have my doubts about the rest of the pass happening or it actually doing anything to make heavy armor worth wearing.

My guess is that armor (medium and heavy anyway) will remain in the province of flavor and I would suggest planning accordingly.

[droid327]

Generally, I think the answer will be: if you have Evasion, go with Pajamas, or Light armor if you can get your MDB high enough (ie Second Skin). If not, go with Heavy Armor. Reason being is its much easier to stack Saves and Avoidance than stack PRR/MRR, so your effective mitigation has a higher ceiling. And you don't suffer for going TWF/THF. Especially for a main-class Pal, who'll still have monster saves from DG, I don't think you'd be able to mitigate magic damage nearly as well with MRR as you will with Evasion.

Does DR apply after PRR/everything else? Get your PRR high enough, and Shadowguardian would make a pretty huge difference.

Right now DR applies *before* everything else, which is why everyone pretty much ignores it. I've asked if this is going to change, but I haven't seen an official response. It'd be nice if they moved DR to the end of the calculation, so it benefited *with* PRR instead of working *against* it like it does now (PRR reduces your effective DR along with the incoming damage)

[Bingobong]

My guess is that armor (medium and heavy anyway) will remain in the province of flavor and I would suggest planning accordingly.

The irony is that this the very thing they were supposedly trying to address :
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5351214

We have been looking at player feedback and we wanted to make changes to the game to open up more templates and character types. We are currently fairly happy with the high end potential of casters and characters who wear no armor or light armor and use Evasion. These characters can kite and use magic to do fairly well in our content.

The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters. Part of the problem is that they can’t use Evasion, and part of the problem is that armor doesn’t really offer that much more armor class than robes or light armor. We have been discussing this a lot lately.

After all that, heavy armor STILL doesn't offer much over light armor (especially not compared to the benefits of evasion).

[PermaBanned]

I don't think you'd be able to mitigate magic damage nearly as well with MRR as you will with Evasion.

This is the part I'm most looking forward to investigating/testing on Lama, finding out just what exactly Sev~ meant by "most" when he said:

This rating works on most magical effects. It will not reduce force, bane and some other special effects.

One of the aspects of MRR I was initially looking forward to was that as part of the trade-off vs Evasion was gaining some protection vs things Evasion has no use against ie Polar Ray, Disintigrate, etc. Obviously, with MRR excluding Force, that means no MRR value vs Disintegrate, Magic Missiles and so on - which is (IMO) unfortunate. I realize the bulk of Magical Damage in the game is vs Reflex saves, thus why Evasion (paired w/ a Ref save ofc) is so handy. I figure the more MRR potects against non-reflex things the more value it {and thus the higher MRR values achievable with Heavy armor + Lrg/Twr Shields} will have vs Evasion. Hmm... Lama needs to hurry up


Sorry if that got a babblely, coffee's still kickin' in...