What exactly is the gripe for TWF?

[Eth]

2 things I'd add:
- poor range, which becomes especially noticeble in laggy environments and adds to the 'hitting while moving problem' (I'm pretty sure they can fix that and improve range of weapons quite simply - check the shadowdancer epic Moment - the tech behind this seems to be there)
- on click attack offhand procs only work while in the attack chain (if you use on click attacks like anvil of thunder you only get an offhand proc while standing still, if you move and use it you only get the mainhand proc.)

[Saekee]

2 things I'd add:
- poor range, which becomes especially noticeble in laggy environments and adds to the 'hitting while moving problem' (I'm pretty sure they can fix that and improve range of weapons quite simply - check the shadowdancer epic Moment - the tech behind this seems to be there)
- on click attack offhand procs only work while in the attack chain (if you use on click attacks like anvil of thunder you only get an offhand proc while standing still, if you move and use it you only get the mainhand proc.)

although, according to the Book of Measurement thread, wraps have an unusually better range than some weapons, oddly

[mudfud]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.
  
• Incredibly slow cleave animation.
  
• No offhand procs on cleaves.
  
• Lack of added damage effects (venomed blades, vicious damage) amongst different trees that benefit from higher attack speed.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

I've learned over the years that griping about something usually leads to not enjoying oneself. I've learned to play my characters how I want and choose, no matter if they are good or great or bad in others peoples eyes. After all, it's me playing them not others.

[Seikojin]

• The single more clear-cut problem with TWF is that it doesn't proc offhand hits during Cleave actions. That is totally unfair; if Doublestrike and Glancing Blow (THF) can work during a Cleave, then offhand should work too. (Since the Cleave description doesn't mention suppressing offhand, this is officially a bug)
  
  ...snip...

Hmmm, I have seen triple damage listed when I cleave with twf.

I don't know why everyone is supposed to swf a bsword or daxe. If you want glancing blows get them. Otherwise twf is more dps to single target than swf. And if you think about it, glancing blows don't count for single target dps.

I see no problem with twf. I take it because the theme of the character needs it.

[Eth]

Hmmm, I have seen triple damage listed when I cleave with twf.

Screenshot or it never happened.

[Scrabbler]

And if you think about it, glancing blows don't count for single target dps.

Why don't you count Glancing Blows for attacking a single target?

[Thrudh]

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

Double the effects though... I like TWF... I have a THF, and a TWF, and a monk unarmed, and I'm working on a SWF...

I like them all for different reasons.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

the only buff/change id give to twf is to make a new moving attack animation without increasing its range. that is a limitation of a) using a weapon that is not so big it must be wielded with two hands (bastards swords i think could be an exception to this, increasing their value compared to the evil khopesh) and b) having to coordinate two large chunks of metal with only one hand each. frankly i think that such a change would be generous as the current moving animation seems about as complicated as id expect a real person trying to do that could get, but **** it does suck.

[Nightmanis]

I've learned over the years that griping about something usually leads to not enjoying oneself. I've learned to play my characters how I want and choose, no matter if they are good or great or bad in others peoples eyes. After all, it's me playing them not others.

The main purpose of this thread was for me to figure out what problems other people are seeing that I am not. It's allowed me to know what to test in game, what to look for, and also (inadvertently) given the devs a civilized and focused list of general complaints about this fighting style. Whether any of them actually read it is not my problem, as I said before this is for my own personal understanding.

I never has a problem with twf, and wanted to know why people said it was the worst style. And I've done exactly that. I'll update the OP here in a little bit one last time to reflect all the general points and a few more specific ones.

[Atremus]

Is it bad because it is old? I only have an unarmed toon but haven't noticed any issues to speak of. It might not clear a room like THF and doesn't swing as fast as SWF but a stunned mob stands no chance one on one.

My last TWF was back before MOTU so I am not sure how they stack up.

stunning blow could use a shorter cool down, but that isn't relevant to which does more DPS.