What exactly is the gripe for TWF?

[Nightmanis]

Mah word.





DEX Builds, DEX builds everywhere.

Oh Lord Jeebus! This will nullify a couple of the arguments against Dex builds


Ok, I think really what I'm seeing here is the hit box needs reworked, and the movement animations need reworked. Unarmed movement attacks aren't too bad, but yes I'll admit that with 2 weapons it's just so awkward and weird.

Fair enough on the balance skill prereq vs dex stat prereq for the feats. It's still a large investment for the 3 feats into a build, but it's understandable that the stat requirement makes TWF a bit more of a challenge.

[maddong]

Part of the problem is that gswf gives 30% alacrity.
But for swf alacrity is x 1.3.
So it actually gives x 1.39 the attack rate.
But instead of avg 0.75 str per hit you avg 2 str per hit.
On top of that you get full double str on cleaves with a quick animation.

It is why I'm playing a brush hook bard. Sick.

[MindCakes]

Costs a feat, yes, but Scimitars are the "favored weapon" for Tempests. If you want to shoehorn three things together in a single build that don't have an intentional synergy (Tempest, Drow not Elf, and Rapiers not Scims/light weapons) then you have to expect to pay a small opportunity cost for that

Wasted feat is a small cost, riiight.
Fortunately, DEX builds are overall fail, so my Drow remain happily STR based; it just annoys me the apparent move to make DEX viable was as usual abandoned halfways.

[droid327]

Wasted feat is a small cost, riiight.
Fortunately, DEX builds are overall fail, so my Drow remain happily STR based; it just annoys me the apparent move to make DEX viable was as usual abandoned halfways.

People who took PA/Cleave/GC just to get OC aren't complaining
People who took Emp Heal just to use with Cocoon aren't complaining
People who took Toughness to qualify for Epic Toughness aren't complaining
People who take Weapon Focus for their Kensei prereqs aren't complaining
Heck, pure Bowbarians used to have to take WF:Ranged AND Power Attack to qualify for Bow Strength

If you don't like the cost for something, then don't pay it...but you cant complain that something isn't available just because you don't like HOW its available.

[Saekee]

Great points everywhere here, will not repeat them. Just note that TWF has other benefits from the offhand: some of its effects can serve the mainhand as well (like Deception for people with high sneak attack damage); it can serve as a buff weapon; when monks do elemental attacks, if timed properly it affects both hands; etc. A number of us argued in a thread a while back about TWF that Dex builds should get their full damage in the offhand, since it is obviously dex-oriented given the feat prereqs (yes I know rangers get them free and can be STR based, which anyway helps their bow etc). That would make dex melees more feasible.

The math says that outside of Mortal Fear capped characters staying at 28, TWF is always inferior to SWF or THF due to glancing blows in any situation other than animal form druids.

I attempted some math here in post #10 on my ninja swf thread. I hadn't calculated glancing blows, but then the build in study does not have cleave etc. My conclusion was that there are certain situations in which one is better than the other; it is up to the player to work them in.

Part of the problem is that gswf gives 30% alacrity.
But for swf alacrity is x 1.3.
So it actually gives x 1.69 the attack rate which is awful close to the 1.8 that twf gets.
But instead of avg 0.75 str per hit you avg 2 str per hit.
On top of that you get full double str on cleaves with a quick animation.
It is why I'm playing a brush hook bard. Sick.

Bards actually wield brush hooks better than monks with the ninja capstone. BUT shadow double, the brief 6-second doublestrike burst, is making me wonder if this can contest bards with SWF in the case of ranged hybrids using monk levels instead of bard (for short burst melee dps).

Wasted feat is a small cost, riiight.
Fortunately, DEX builds are overall fail, so my Drow remain happily STR based; it just annoys me the apparent move to make DEX viable was as usual abandoned halfways.

Overall? Have you read any of the shuriken builds here that are uber? Dex is the dominant stat since it procs an extra shuriken (twice, ninja core and shuriken expertise), represents the damage, AND is the reflex save you need while kiting. Also used in executioner strike. With the changes to OC, dex throwers will take a nice leap in power.

[Oxarhamar]

The math says that outside of Mortal Fear capped characters staying at 28, TWF is always inferior to SWF or THF due to glancing blows in any situation other than animal form druids.

Except that TWF feats working with Animal form Druid is not WAI

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

So to say that TWF is inferior except on Druid Animal form (not WAI) should be an indication that there is a problem.

[Oxarhamar]

People who took PA/Cleave/GC just to get OC aren't complaining
People who took Emp Heal just to use with Cocoon aren't complaining
People who took Toughness to qualify for Epic Toughness aren't complaining
People who take Weapon Focus for their Kensei prereqs aren't complaining
Heck, pure Bowbarians used to have to take WF:Ranged AND Power Attack to qualify for Bow Strength

If you don't like the cost for something, then don't pay it...but you cant complain that something isn't available just because you don't like HOW its available.

Not to nit pick but, I've seen a good amount of complaining on the forums and in game about Kensei feats requirements and especially the 8 fighter levels to get the feats.

Though I think Kensei is fine just as it is.



I used to take PA Cleave Great Cleave & 23 STR on my fully ranged Atrificer builds just to get OC but, eventually I decided to trade that huge line of mostly wasted feats/stat points for more survivability.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I could be wrong about this, but it feels like to me in addition to all the other things mentioned here is how slow TWF cleave attacks seem.

THF Cleaves are slow as well, but nowhere near, at least that's how it feels.
SWF cleaves are super fast and fluid, but TWF just kind of flails about for a second or two and then starts attacking again.
This has always bothered me.

It gets noticeably worse with lay waste and Momentum Swing.

I don't know for certain if it actually IS slower, as I've not done any testing on it.
But it certainly feels? a lot slower.

[Gremmlynn]

DEX Builds, DEX builds everywhere.

They'll still have issues hitting tactical DC's. While there are exceptions, it will mostly be a case of a few token builds built around those exceptions than an explosion of dex builds.

[maddong]

On shadow double builds I stick with wraps for stunning fist.

14 pal 5 monk could use shadow double and maintain excellent crits after the update. Sireth would benefit more from the double strike though so I'm not sure that is worth the argument for twf. I will probably use twf death knips on a pally for dual smites. I think paladin/fvs smites, stunning fist, and the one icy stun that bards have are the biggest areas where twf is superior. Otherwise swf is a lot more convenient and still very very powerful with the 1.39 attack rate (I miscalculated above), double stat damage, and fast cleaves.

[maddong]

Also i think the running swf attack animation gives 1.7 x alacrity which comes out at 1.51 x base attack rate.

[kierg10]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

When twf and cleaving you do not get off hand strikes.

I have also been told that whilst moving and twfing you lose off hand procs.

[FestusHood]

I could be wrong about this, but it feels like to me in addition to all the other things mentioned here is how slow TWF cleave attacks seem.

THF Cleaves are slow as well, but nowhere near, at least that's how it feels.
SWF cleaves are super fast and fluid, but TWF just kind of flails about for a second or two and then starts attacking again.
This has always bothered me.

It gets noticeably worse with lay waste and Momentum Swing.

I don't know for certain if it actually IS slower, as I've not done any testing on it.
But it certainly feels? a lot slower.

Just my personal feeling, as i haven't actually tested, and i'm not even sure exactly how to.

Cleaves with two handed fighting and single weapon fighting seem to be exactly the same to me. In terms of speed and animation. With single weapon fighting cleaving is noticeably slower than the normal attack animation.
Cleaving while sword and board is way, way faster than any of the other fighting styles.


To make an unrelated point, the new melee power doesn't have to necessarily give 100% of it's effect across the board. One solution might be for melee power to give 150 or 200% of it's effect to weapon procs. That would give two weapon fighting a nice bump, depending on what weapons you were using of course.

[Nightmanis]

But, that's just my opinion and not entirely relevant to this threads purposes.
sorry, not sorry for the derailment Night. <3

You're fine dear :P

That's a good point though. Test might need to be done on how fast TWF uses a cleave vs the other styles (SWF and SnB have a completely ridiculous cleave speed).

Also to the whole moving doesn't proc offhand attacks: If this is true, this needs to be fixed. The animation could be cleaned up too, make it a bit more friendly.

A thought for GTWF, to make it somewhat more appealing:

Give the normal benefits, but now weapon effects (venomed blades, paladin light damage, etc.) now gain double melee power. You could have ITWF grant 1.5x melee power to help with the bump up.

[Nightmanis]

Also making any comparison to Druid TWF wolf form builds is idiotic.

That's not working correctly, and should not be used for any comparison. Any and all calculations should be ignored.

[FestusHood]

You're fine dear :P

That's a good point though. Test might need to be done on how fast TWF uses a cleave vs the other styles (SWF and SnB have a completely ridiculous cleave speed).

My only experience with single weapon fighting so far was with a barb i converted after an epic tr. I just did it to mess around a bit before i did a heroic tr. The cleaves he was making with a scimitar seemed incredibly slow to me. Part of that has to do with the wind up he did before actually cleaving. When i was fighting with a two hander cleaving didn't seem to have much downside, but single weapon fighting it sure did.

Is it possible the difference you are seeing is because you are swashbuckling, and therefore getting the sword and board animation from a buckler being equipped? I haven't tried that yet. My barb had nothing in the off hand.

[Nightmanis]

My only experience with single weapon fighting so far was with a barb i converted after an epic tr. I just did it to mess around a bit before i did a heroic tr. The cleaves he was making with a scimitar seemed incredibly slow to me. Part of that has to do with the wind up he did before actually cleaving. When i was fighting with a two hander cleaving didn't seem to have much downside, but single weapon fighting it sure did.

Is it possible the difference you are seeing is because you are swashbuckling, and therefore getting the sword and board animation from a buckler being equipped? I haven't tried that yet. My barb had nothing in the off hand.

My main isn't a swashbuckler. It's Nightmanis in my signature.

I'll throw a shield on him, and go grab his cleaver to test out how it feels. I do know that with a shield is just outright ridiculous, to the point that when he was a SnB build I wanted to take 3 barb for supreme cleave just because I ran out of attacks so easily.

[Nightmanis]

I just tested it, tested with Nightmare, Cleave, a TF orb, and Aegis.

TWF cleave is just painfully slow. It looks like he's got to coil himself up just to get the momentum going for the 2 weapons. This makes sense when compared to THF because a Greataxe weighs so much and can swing you around easier.

THF Cleave has a wind up before the attack, where he grabs the weapon differently and then attacks. Still not as slow as TWF though.

SWF and SnB cleaves look to be about the same speed. This seems to be because unlike THF, you're already holding onto the part that you would be during the cleave, so there's no need to readjust.

And just for fun, I took the weapon off and just used a shield. I can't quite tell, but it seems as if it might just be the ever so slightest bit faster.

If they don't want to implement offhand procs into cleaves, then give TWF the same animation as SWF.

[Erdrique]

This is an interesting thread, as I haven't really noticed many people complaining that two weapon fighting is now losing out to single weapon fighting and two handed fighting styles. I know that I enjoy playing my two weapon fighting characters and they seem to work well for me but now I'm wondering if I'm getting the most out of them and might need to rework them .

[Maelodic]

They'll still have issues hitting tactical DC's. While there are exceptions, it will mostly be a case of a few token builds built around those exceptions than an explosion of dex builds.

DEX based just makes it easier- you already have a stat requirement for GTWF and can just mostly dump STR otherwise.

I still maintain that TWF is the superior fighting style for those without a huge investment in their damage stat and that is the niche that it fills- DEX based builds can just shine a whole lot better now.

This is an interesting thread, as I haven't really noticed many people complaining that two weapon fighting is now losing out to single weapon fighting and two handed fighting styles. I know that I enjoy playing my two weapon fighting characters and they seem to work well for me but now I'm wondering if I'm getting the most out of them and might need to rework them .

I was thinking the same thing- though Unarmed is in a good spot.