What exactly is the gripe for TWF?

[Nightmanis]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.
  
• Incredibly slow cleave animation.
  
• No offhand procs on cleaves.
  
• Lack of added damage effects (venomed blades, vicious damage) amongst different trees that benefit from higher attack speed.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

[DirtySheepdip]

add: People keep griping about it

[Oxarhamar]

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

[Nightmanis]

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

I'll put it, but that's not really something that takes away from TWF in terms of killing or contributing in groups.

[Zasral]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

The big one is lack of aoe dps, but single target incredible. Needing to target lock mobs when surrounded so you don't spread hits around. Against more than one mob thf will always out dps you, but against bosses it doesn't get much better. Personal choice I enjoy it but would never suffer through 1 to 20 that way again cleave and great cleave are just too good.

[droid327]

Well the gripe has really come out since the SWF-Swash update, and that's because :

-THF outclasses you for AoE
-SWF outclasses you for ST, when maxed out

And THF doesn't really fit into a "mix of the two" category either, so its just a universally inferior choice.

On top of everything else, you cant use it with Swash, which cuts you off from the massive crit bonus, instakill, and all the other goodies it provides. And, conversely, THF tends to play better in general with enhancements and EDs, since you have a more significant base attack to multiply with special attacks (eg Adrenaline).

That being said, TWF may enjoy a proxy buff when added-damage effects get buffed, since TWF still wins in terms of hits-per-second. TWF is still going to be preferable for any build taking advantage of a lot of chance-on-hit procs.

[AbyssalMage]

add: People keep griping about it

^This. It makes people feel good I guess. But on a scale of 1 to 10, its like a -5

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

^This. I didn't realize how horrible it honestly was until I started grinding GS.

More if you want to add:

• High Dex requirement. Not an issue for a 2nd(usually) or 3rd+ lifer but on a first lifer, getting 17 Dex can be a nightmare while also trying to keep your Con at 14 (or better) and your primary stat (usually Str) also meaningful.
• Usually requires a Tome to meet the Dex requirement (separate argument but same thought as the one above this).
• Unless a Monk or Ranger, your offhand attack has an 80% chance, at the highest rank (Don't think Rogues get 100%, could be wrong).
• No longer best single target DPS (although I have not seen any number crunchers prove this. Only conjecture so I am hesitant to repeat hyperbole).
• Unlike THF, you have to invest in all three feats for it to be remotely a decent fighting style. Meaning - PA (or Precision), 3 x TWF, IC: S/P/B = 5 Feats. That allows little or no wiggle room in Feat customization(Before Toughness became an optional feat, there wasn't really any wiggle room).

There used to be some other arguments against it:

• Like miss chance being horrible that was addressed in the combat overhaul, intentionally/unintentionally(?), not sure. But it is no longer an issue.
• It was lower DPS than THF. The only classes that could get a decent investment with TWF were Monks, Rogues, and Rangers. THF got nerfed which fixed that discrepancy (Thanks to SWF, that is why people want THF un-nerfed. I wouldn't mind un-nerfing THF and boosting TWF which should have been the solution back then).
• TWF required you to wield a Finesable weapon in your off-hand unless you had OTWF (read above about Feat investment) or suffer a penalty that noticeably lowered your DPS. You could overcome this penalty with enough Strength, in the neighborhood of 40+ if I remember correctly.

There may be more to add to both lists but honestly can't think of anymore.

[AbyssalMage]

I'll put it, but that's not really something that takes away from TWF in terms of killing or contributing in groups.

If you have a weapon that is inferior, that makes you contribute less. So even though you have a Shiny in your primary, if your off-hand is garbage compared to it because you are still farming ingredients...

[Nightmanis]

More if you want to add:

• High Dex requirement. Not an issue for a 2nd(usually) or 3rd+ lifer but on a first lifer, getting 17 Dex can be a nightmare while also trying to keep your Con at 14 (or better) and your primary stat (usually Str) also meaningful.If Dex to damage was more viable, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Give us more bonuses to boosting our Dex (divine might, dex edition) and this argument might not be as big.
  
• Unless a Monk or Ranger, your offhand attack has an 80% chance, at the highest rank (Don't think Rogues get 100%, could be wrong). I can understand tempest and monks having the most bonuses to it. While a rogue would benefit greatly, they're already quite powerful without them. Plus they're not exactly displayed as master skirmisher's.
• No longer best single target DPS (although I have not seen any number crunchers prove this. Only conjecture so I am hesitant to repeat hyperbole).The math may need to be ran, and if in all situations it is behind then that should be the standard to balance against.
• Unlike THF, you have to invest in all three feats for it to be remotely a decent fighting style. Meaning - PA (or Precision), 3 x TWF, IC: S/P/B = 5 Feats. That allows little or no wiggle room in Feat customization(Before Toughness became an optional feat, there wasn't really any wiggle room).This same argument applies to SWF as well. Although the argument could be made if SWF is deemed better single target, that it's not worth the investment.

In red

[TheLegendOfAra]

One thing I have found while playing my hybrid is that *almost universally I do better DPS with my build when using Sireth or Cleaver than I do dual wielding. Which is very strange when you think about it, since I have ALL the TWF feats, and even a few of the Tempest enhancements for TWF: offhand, flat damage bonus, etc.

Since I don't have any TF weapons except a bow, and a shuriken(Both still at tier 1) and my only single handed weapons atm are dual Celestia's I'm not sure if this is simply because Celestia's are just inferior DPS weapons, or if it's a more deeply rooted problem.

I can say though I have noticed for certain that it's much harder to maintain a blitz, even with 10 stacks, while using Celestia's and TWF than it is while using Sireth or Cleaver. I think AOE plays a huge factor into this though.

Of course my entire experience is tainted compared to a pure melee's since even when faced with TWF issues, I have a lot of fall back options that work really well, and I'm not strictly a melee build.

* Only time I do better DPS with TWF is against mobs with DR, like when tanking the Truthful One in FOT, or other bosses in EE that have high DR that Celestia breaks. (All the bosses in EEDA.)

[Chauncey1]

The big one is lack of aoe dps, but single target incredible. Needing to target lock mobs when surrounded so you don't spread hits around. Against more than one mob thf will always out dps you, but against bosses it doesn't get much better. Personal choice I enjoy it but would never suffer through 1 to 20 that way again cleave and great cleave are just too good.

Agreed.
My AA ranger sometimes wields dual bastard swords of various flavors. One on one, he's brutal but like you said, no AOE.

[Rykka]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

The main issues IMO with TWF are...

Personal Investment (more grinding to get twice as many weapons to just do the same or less damage as TWF and SWF).

The terrible weapon effect range (where the crosshair is) which can cause wiffs even when it looks like your swords are moving through enemy models.

the personal observation that if you are fighting multiple opponents you're damage doesn't get focused on the thing you're facing under the crosshair, but just what ever happens to be closest to you on your right or left part of the attack box. So instead of doing focused damage to one target you just splash it around randomly. You can move to fix this, but that hurts DPS as well.

[Monkey_Archer]

From a dps perspective, the reason TWF seems inferior is because of the way it scales, and the availability of effects that scale TWF vs other styles.

TWF benefits most from on-hit effects due to its higher number of hits per attack
SWF benefits most from doublestrike, strength bonuses, etc..
THF benefits most from cleaves and PA.

The issue is that doublestrike, high strength, PA, cleave, etc... are all readily available from enhancements, destinies, feats, and so on, whereas really high on-hit effects (to the level required to compete) are basically only available in 2 places: Rogue levels or thunderforge weapons.

If you do the math, TWF can compete with the other styles once you get to level 28, but it just doesn't have enough options before then.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My biggest complaint is that they took away the flames from old flaming weapons and then gave them to new flaming weapons.

Do you have any idea how annoying it is to not be able to find a nice looking matched set of weapons?!

[AbyssalMage]

If Dex to damage was more viable, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Give us more bonuses to boosting our Dex (divine might, dex edition) and this argument might not be as big.

Until this happens though, this is a very valid argument.

Even converting to Dex to damage, you still need a raw score of 23 Strength for OC which requires 3 feats that all benefit from strength. 18 + 5 Tome allows you to do this but that is still a lot of points into strength on creation for a Dex build.

I can understand tempest and monks having the most bonuses to it. While a rogue would benefit greatly, they're already quite powerful without them. Plus they're not exactly displayed as master skirmisher's.

Rogue's are powerful (the way most of the community plays them at least) because of SA damage. That is why it is more beneficial for them to go TWF than the other two styles (THF or SWF). Once they face a purple named (or a host of NPC's that are "immune" to critical) they become near useless (dependent on the build) because although TWF = "BEST" single target DPS (in theory vs. other two styles), their DPS relies on SA damage which many NPC's are (nearly) immune to. That is why the community still has the Str/Dex/Int argument. But after multiple TR's, Tomes, and Equipment the argument becomes more muddled.

The math may need to be ran, and if in all situations it is behind then that should be the standard to balance against.

I agree. Currently a SWF Bard is insane but I realize that is because of their Enhancements and the Feats. From the initial video's done in the Fighter thread (Cetus) though, it looks like their may be an issue with SWF vs. TWF.

This same argument applies to SWF as well. Although the argument could be made if SWF is deemed better single target, that it's not worth the investment.

SWF has a Balance (skill) requirement and no Stat requirement; there is a HUGE difference between the two. And if DPS turns out to be SWF > TWF this places TWF only good for "effects" off damage which would be very bad, very bad indeed (depending on your perspective I guess).

[Powskier]

i liked TWF alot when I was a lvl20 pure ftr..multiclassin twf seems weaker. Feels like the max kensai enhancement at lvl20 realy lets TWF shine..then you are pure ftr ,so weak skill pts and no healin(cocoon dont work w/o spell pts)I'd like to see all classes get same skill pts adj by intel....throw a sp augment and poof-a lvl20 ftr that has skill pts to distribute and cocoon (w an SP augment)

[AbyssalMage]

From a dps perspective, the reason TWF seems inferior is because of the way it scales, and the availability of effects that scale TWF vs other styles.

TWF benefits most from on-hit effects due to its higher number of hits per attack
SWF benefits most from doublestrike, strength bonuses, etc..
THF benefits most from cleaves and PA.

The issue is that doublestrike, high strength, PA, cleave, etc... are all readily available from enhancements, destinies, feats, and so on, whereas really high on-hit effects (to the level required to compete) are basically only available in 2 places: Rogue levels or thunderforge weapons.

If you do the math, TWF can compete with the other styles once you get to level 28, but it just doesn't have enough options before then.

Not sure what you are saying. 1 to 1, I did more damage than any equal THF on my Tempest Ranger with equal gear. AoE I got slaughtered but considering that was the intent, I was happy with the trade-off. A "twitching" 2HF could come close to my DPS but I haven't seen one of them in awhile. I haven't actually read about "twitching" for awhile honestly in the general or class specific forums.

Monk's beat me but as I have always read, "They are premium." Rogue's beat me until we faced undead, constructs, or named. On-hit effects work from 1-18 very well. 19+ you really need weapons with great base damage because "effects" don't scale well to the weapons available or the HP's the NPC's have. That is why CitW, Drow, and now the new Thunder Weapons are all superior. The combination of +W[x], extended threat range, and/or Crit multiplier are all you are looking for.

With equal gear, not sure how you are below DPS of any THF. Yeah, you don't get the flashy numbers but I was content knowing I wasn't totally gimp through the math.

[nokowi]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

My main gripe for TWF are that I cant hit any mob running. They run right by you, or even into you, and you get no hits. I should post a video of myself trying to assassinate things in FTP. It is comical. This has always needed a fix.

If you want to take TWF, you need to take 3 feats AND have 15 dex for the first one, and 17 dex for the 2nd one. I need improved critical in my build, so this means level 9, 12, and 15 are required for TWF feats. Getting 17 dex by level 12 means a starting dex of 14 (with +3 tome). My suggestion would be to make completionist be a +2 untyped bonus to all starting stats, rather than a feat bonus (yes for free).



1. One thing TWF has going for it right now is the ability to get 2x as many cool weapon abilities. (Throw Balizarde in your off hand)
2. The other is a slightly higher chance at %procs (typically mortal fear) at level 28. Unfortunately if you use 2 mortal fear weaps, you lose the advantage of having an offhand weapon with nice non-combat abilities (dodge, saves, etc).

An easy fix would be for mortal fear to be an effect similar to seeker (if one weapon has it, all weapons benefit from it). This small change would make TWF valid again.

[Maelodic]

The only TWF style that seems to be acceptable is Unarmed- which essentially gives you full off-hand bonus, a good moving animation, and use of only one weapon- solves every problem except the AoE DPS which is still pretty lacking.

Even converting to Dex to damage, you still need a raw score of 23 Strength for OC which requires 3 feats that all benefit from strength. 18 + 5 Tome allows you to do this but that is still a lot of points into strength on creation for a Dex build.

Overwhelming Critical isn't usually as important as people make it out to be- but Cleave and Great Cleave is definitely a requirement for most melees.

i liked TWF alot when I was a lvl20 pure ftr..multiclassin twf seems weaker. Feels like the max kensai enhancement at lvl20 realy lets TWF shine..then you are pure ftr ,so weak skill pts and no healin(cocoon dont work w/o spell pts)I'd like to see all classes get same skill pts adj by intel....throw a sp augment and poof-a lvl20 ftr that has skill pts to distribute and cocoon (w an SP augment)

The tempest capstone is slightly more powerful than the kensei capstone for TWF and rangers tend to have a few more tools for that as well- Killer is such a great enhancement (20% doublestrike when you keep it up)

[janave]

On live servers while playing, i see approx 4 times as many TWF-ers than THF players, ok taking out the recent Bard Hype here.

I guess more people, more gripes. I like my ranger TWF-ing, but i think i overfarmed gear a little bit, and now he is a fury archer anyway, like most respectable rangers .