What exactly is the gripe for TWF?

[Nightmanis]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.
  
• Incredibly slow cleave animation.
  
• No offhand procs on cleaves.
  
• Lack of added damage effects (venomed blades, vicious damage) amongst different trees that benefit from higher attack speed.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

[DirtySheepdip]

add: People keep griping about it

[Oxarhamar]

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

[Nightmanis]

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

I'll put it, but that's not really something that takes away from TWF in terms of killing or contributing in groups.

[AbyssalMage]

I'll put it, but that's not really something that takes away from TWF in terms of killing or contributing in groups.

If you have a weapon that is inferior, that makes you contribute less. So even though you have a Shiny in your primary, if your off-hand is garbage compared to it because you are still farming ingredients...

[AbyssalMage]

add: People keep griping about it

^This. It makes people feel good I guess. But on a scale of 1 to 10, its like a -5

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

^This. I didn't realize how horrible it honestly was until I started grinding GS.

More if you want to add:

• High Dex requirement. Not an issue for a 2nd(usually) or 3rd+ lifer but on a first lifer, getting 17 Dex can be a nightmare while also trying to keep your Con at 14 (or better) and your primary stat (usually Str) also meaningful.
• Usually requires a Tome to meet the Dex requirement (separate argument but same thought as the one above this).
• Unless a Monk or Ranger, your offhand attack has an 80% chance, at the highest rank (Don't think Rogues get 100%, could be wrong).
• No longer best single target DPS (although I have not seen any number crunchers prove this. Only conjecture so I am hesitant to repeat hyperbole).
• Unlike THF, you have to invest in all three feats for it to be remotely a decent fighting style. Meaning - PA (or Precision), 3 x TWF, IC: S/P/B = 5 Feats. That allows little or no wiggle room in Feat customization(Before Toughness became an optional feat, there wasn't really any wiggle room).

There used to be some other arguments against it:

• Like miss chance being horrible that was addressed in the combat overhaul, intentionally/unintentionally(?), not sure. But it is no longer an issue.
• It was lower DPS than THF. The only classes that could get a decent investment with TWF were Monks, Rogues, and Rangers. THF got nerfed which fixed that discrepancy (Thanks to SWF, that is why people want THF un-nerfed. I wouldn't mind un-nerfing THF and boosting TWF which should have been the solution back then).
• TWF required you to wield a Finesable weapon in your off-hand unless you had OTWF (read above about Feat investment) or suffer a penalty that noticeably lowered your DPS. You could overcome this penalty with enough Strength, in the neighborhood of 40+ if I remember correctly.

There may be more to add to both lists but honestly can't think of anymore.

[Nightmanis]

More if you want to add:

• High Dex requirement. Not an issue for a 2nd(usually) or 3rd+ lifer but on a first lifer, getting 17 Dex can be a nightmare while also trying to keep your Con at 14 (or better) and your primary stat (usually Str) also meaningful.If Dex to damage was more viable, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Give us more bonuses to boosting our Dex (divine might, dex edition) and this argument might not be as big.
  
• Unless a Monk or Ranger, your offhand attack has an 80% chance, at the highest rank (Don't think Rogues get 100%, could be wrong). I can understand tempest and monks having the most bonuses to it. While a rogue would benefit greatly, they're already quite powerful without them. Plus they're not exactly displayed as master skirmisher's.
• No longer best single target DPS (although I have not seen any number crunchers prove this. Only conjecture so I am hesitant to repeat hyperbole).The math may need to be ran, and if in all situations it is behind then that should be the standard to balance against.
• Unlike THF, you have to invest in all three feats for it to be remotely a decent fighting style. Meaning - PA (or Precision), 3 x TWF, IC: S/P/B = 5 Feats. That allows little or no wiggle room in Feat customization(Before Toughness became an optional feat, there wasn't really any wiggle room).This same argument applies to SWF as well. Although the argument could be made if SWF is deemed better single target, that it's not worth the investment.

In red

[TheLegendOfAra]

One thing I have found while playing my hybrid is that *almost universally I do better DPS with my build when using Sireth or Cleaver than I do dual wielding. Which is very strange when you think about it, since I have ALL the TWF feats, and even a few of the Tempest enhancements for TWF: offhand, flat damage bonus, etc.

Since I don't have any TF weapons except a bow, and a shuriken(Both still at tier 1) and my only single handed weapons atm are dual Celestia's I'm not sure if this is simply because Celestia's are just inferior DPS weapons, or if it's a more deeply rooted problem.

I can say though I have noticed for certain that it's much harder to maintain a blitz, even with 10 stacks, while using Celestia's and TWF than it is while using Sireth or Cleaver. I think AOE plays a huge factor into this though.

Of course my entire experience is tainted compared to a pure melee's since even when faced with TWF issues, I have a lot of fall back options that work really well, and I'm not strictly a melee build.

* Only time I do better DPS with TWF is against mobs with DR, like when tanking the Truthful One in FOT, or other bosses in EE that have high DR that Celestia breaks. (All the bosses in EEDA.)

[AbyssalMage]

If Dex to damage was more viable, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Give us more bonuses to boosting our Dex (divine might, dex edition) and this argument might not be as big.

Until this happens though, this is a very valid argument.

Even converting to Dex to damage, you still need a raw score of 23 Strength for OC which requires 3 feats that all benefit from strength. 18 + 5 Tome allows you to do this but that is still a lot of points into strength on creation for a Dex build.

I can understand tempest and monks having the most bonuses to it. While a rogue would benefit greatly, they're already quite powerful without them. Plus they're not exactly displayed as master skirmisher's.

Rogue's are powerful (the way most of the community plays them at least) because of SA damage. That is why it is more beneficial for them to go TWF than the other two styles (THF or SWF). Once they face a purple named (or a host of NPC's that are "immune" to critical) they become near useless (dependent on the build) because although TWF = "BEST" single target DPS (in theory vs. other two styles), their DPS relies on SA damage which many NPC's are (nearly) immune to. That is why the community still has the Str/Dex/Int argument. But after multiple TR's, Tomes, and Equipment the argument becomes more muddled.

The math may need to be ran, and if in all situations it is behind then that should be the standard to balance against.

I agree. Currently a SWF Bard is insane but I realize that is because of their Enhancements and the Feats. From the initial video's done in the Fighter thread (Cetus) though, it looks like their may be an issue with SWF vs. TWF.

This same argument applies to SWF as well. Although the argument could be made if SWF is deemed better single target, that it's not worth the investment.

SWF has a Balance (skill) requirement and no Stat requirement; there is a HUGE difference between the two. And if DPS turns out to be SWF > TWF this places TWF only good for "effects" off damage which would be very bad, very bad indeed (depending on your perspective I guess).

[Maelodic]

The only TWF style that seems to be acceptable is Unarmed- which essentially gives you full off-hand bonus, a good moving animation, and use of only one weapon- solves every problem except the AoE DPS which is still pretty lacking.

Even converting to Dex to damage, you still need a raw score of 23 Strength for OC which requires 3 feats that all benefit from strength. 18 + 5 Tome allows you to do this but that is still a lot of points into strength on creation for a Dex build.

Overwhelming Critical isn't usually as important as people make it out to be- but Cleave and Great Cleave is definitely a requirement for most melees.

i liked TWF alot when I was a lvl20 pure ftr..multiclassin twf seems weaker. Feels like the max kensai enhancement at lvl20 realy lets TWF shine..then you are pure ftr ,so weak skill pts and no healin(cocoon dont work w/o spell pts)I'd like to see all classes get same skill pts adj by intel....throw a sp augment and poof-a lvl20 ftr that has skill pts to distribute and cocoon (w an SP augment)

The tempest capstone is slightly more powerful than the kensei capstone for TWF and rangers tend to have a few more tools for that as well- Killer is such a great enhancement (20% doublestrike when you keep it up)

[Mindos]

Even converting to Dex to damage, you still need a raw score of 23 Strength for OC which requires 3 feats that all benefit from strength. 18 + 5 Tome allows you to do this but that is still a lot of points into strength on creation for a Dex build.

Supoosedly, OC can be taken stand alone in the next update, ie, you wont need PA, Cleave, GC,

[MindCakes]

[...]

• TWF required you to wield a Finesable weapon in your off-hand unless you had OTWF [...]

*cough* Light weapon.
Extra penalties apply when the off-hand weapon is not a light weapon.
Finesse works for light weapons and rapiers.
Rapiers are not light weapons.

I'm only mentioning it because people getting this wrong is a pet peeve of mine, and one of the things that I find particularly annoying in the current state of the game is you can get DEX to damage with scimitars much easier than with rapiers; to me the only explanation for that is whoever designed this part was making this very mistake.

[Tilomere]

The math says that outside of Mortal Fear capped characters staying at 28, TWF is always inferior to SWF or THF due to glancing blows in any situation other than animal form druids.

[Oxarhamar]

The math says that outside of Mortal Fear capped characters staying at 28, TWF is always inferior to SWF or THF due to glancing blows in any situation other than animal form druids.

Except that TWF feats working with Animal form Druid is not WAI

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

So to say that TWF is inferior except on Druid Animal form (not WAI) should be an indication that there is a problem.

[Ayseifn]

The while moving animation is very annoying, back when end game was a lot of tank and spank raids it was fine but now movement is a huge factor and those animations aren't fun.

The range is too small for how the hit detection works. I can chase after a monster, be bumping into it and my attacks still do nothing. To actually hit them you have to swing at the air in front of them, that's not intuitive at all and not fun either.

Cleaves lower your DPS unless you're hitting a lot of mobs, the swing is slow and nothing speeds it up* so it's even worse to use if you're haste boosting or the like, and doesn't proc offhands. So I cleave to charge blitz and only take the feats because they're for OC pretty much, oh they're also nice to air swing and reset momentum swing.

*Not a unique problem, the slow speed meant I didn't cleave all that much on my acrobat either. Haven't tried SWF yet, maybe it has similar issues.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

*cough* Light weapon.
Extra penalties apply when the off-hand weapon is not a light weapon.
Finesse works for light weapons and rapiers.
Rapiers are not light weapons.

I'm only mentioning it because people getting this wrong is a pet peeve of mine, and one of the things that I find particularly annoying in the current state of the game is you can get DEX to damage with scimitars much easier than with rapiers; to me the only explanation for that is whoever designed this part was making this very mistake.

I agree.

[Thrudh]

Double the ingredient cost to make a a pair of Thundergorged Vs. THF or SWF even Wraps is only one Weapon to build.

Double the effects though... I like TWF... I have a THF, and a TWF, and a monk unarmed, and I'm working on a SWF...

I like them all for different reasons.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

the only buff/change id give to twf is to make a new moving attack animation without increasing its range. that is a limitation of a) using a weapon that is not so big it must be wielded with two hands (bastards swords i think could be an exception to this, increasing their value compared to the evil khopesh) and b) having to coordinate two large chunks of metal with only one hand each. frankly i think that such a change would be generous as the current moving animation seems about as complicated as id expect a real person trying to do that could get, but **** it does suck.

[Zasral]

I've asked a couple people in game, and I'm wanting to figure out what the gripes are for TWF. I ask because I have an unarmed monk build that doesn't seem all that great, but I'm personally convinced and have been told that unarmed itself is fine. It's dual wielding with actual weapons that is dreadful. So I want to create a list of reasons why.

So far, I've gleaned these aspects:

• Low AOE dps, when compared to the alternative styles.
  
• Horrible dps while moving, due to the animation being terrible and slow.
  
• Offhand only getting .5 stat bonus. This one I think is a weak argument.
  
• Double the ingredients requirement to make weapons.

Any more I can add.

I'm doing this for my own personal gain. I just would like to know how and why it's considered inferior.

The big one is lack of aoe dps, but single target incredible. Needing to target lock mobs when surrounded so you don't spread hits around. Against more than one mob thf will always out dps you, but against bosses it doesn't get much better. Personal choice I enjoy it but would never suffer through 1 to 20 that way again cleave and great cleave are just too good.

[droid327]

Well the gripe has really come out since the SWF-Swash update, and that's because :

-THF outclasses you for AoE
-SWF outclasses you for ST, when maxed out

And THF doesn't really fit into a "mix of the two" category either, so its just a universally inferior choice.

On top of everything else, you cant use it with Swash, which cuts you off from the massive crit bonus, instakill, and all the other goodies it provides. And, conversely, THF tends to play better in general with enhancements and EDs, since you have a more significant base attack to multiply with special attacks (eg Adrenaline).

That being said, TWF may enjoy a proxy buff when added-damage effects get buffed, since TWF still wins in terms of hits-per-second. TWF is still going to be preferable for any build taking advantage of a lot of chance-on-hit procs.