Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[azrael4h]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

So there's no reason to ever take more than 6 levels of Paladin (and that only if the enhancements otherwise are actually good, which is not happening at all given KotC)? Good I guess, even if it flies against a class revamp entirely. I suggest abandoning the entire revamp now and save further time and money, since it will accomplish nothing whatsoever.

A dispellable, limited time buff that stacked with only TWO classed enhancements, which affect only the weakest weapons in the game and even with the stacking don't even bring them up to par against current top tier combinations, or for that matter, tacking the stick or dagger builds onto a few levels of Barbarian for Crit Rage and basically the same thing, except with higher dps and still not dispellable.

Dog gone it, I had to end my run on sentence.

With Holy Sword not worthless, it was worthwhile taking 14-15 Paladin. Now, with it worthless, why bother with so many levels of a dead class when you can get the superior benefits with 8 Fighter? Because of 1[W]? Group with an Arty and you're done. Once you boil it down, if KotC stays as it is in the OP, and Defender and Vanguard both look the same (most likely the case, given KotC) then why bother with more than 2 PAL at all?

It went from **** to good enough for consideration despite being in such a deep build of Paladin to **** again, all because some people who think that DDO should be a WoW clone insist that Paladins be usable only for a tanking role.

[Scrabbler]

So there's no reason to ever take more than 6 levels of Paladin
...
A dispellable, limited time buff that stacked with only TWO classed enhancements

So you say that changing Holy Sword's +2 crit range +1 crit mult to Competence bonuses is wrecking the Paladin class. And you also say that the only way a build could even detect that the bonuses were Competence (instead of untyped) was if it was Pal15/Rog5 or Pal14/Rog6.

Put those two statements together, and you're saying that the only good thing about the previous proposal for Holy Sword was how it could work in a Rogue multiclass build. Meaning that you think the only thing that Paladin class would've been good for is Rogue mixing... and yet you say that was a good thing?

tacking the stick or dagger builds onto a few levels of Barbarian for Crit Rage and basically the same thing, except with higher dps and still not dispellable.

It is impossible for a build to have Critical Rage and Knife Specialization or Staff Specialization, as they are all tier 5 enhancements.

With Holy Sword not worthless, it was worthwhile taking 14-15 Paladin. Now, with it worthless, why bother with so many levels of a dead class when you can get the superior benefits with 8 Fighter?

In what sense is +2 crit range a superior benefit to +2 crit range and +1 crit mult?

[bennyson]

ENOUGH OF THIS HATRED!

This is THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME THAT THE DEVELOPERS HAVE BEGUN TO BRING PALADINS BACK FROM THE DEAD!

Did any of you played a Paladin before? Were any of you heartbroken that your beloved Paladin character suffered the low-end of the stick since U19? I did, as so many others.

Nothing here is "meh" it is flat-out 100% better than it is on live.

The old Holy Sword spell is a worthless pile of dun, while it may be "meh" of usefulness in the levels of 15 to 20. By the time you get to Epics, it becomes meaningless.

Now the spell is what it was meant to be, a Weapon Buff. Don't you get it? You can turn any +5 weapon with a +2[w] damage on with a crit multiplier of x2 and crit range of like 18-20 into a +7 weapon with a +3[w] damage with a crit multiplier of x3 and a crit range of 15-20 by level 14! . Its not that hard to reach these levels now anyway.

I mean for offense, but I am sick and tired of all this hate toward something that buffs the Paladin class. This "hatred" is very pathetic people.

[Scrabbler]

The new Holy Sword spell is very powerful. By my count, it provides five different powerful effects to the weapon. (1W, Good damage, crit mult, crit range, crit range).

I suggest that the benefit of Holy Sword scale up according to your Paladin class level or caster level. Don't give all the improvements at once; keep some reward for staying with Paladin past 15th.

[oradafu]

ENOUGH OF THIS HATRED!

This is THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME THAT THE DEVELOPERS HAVE BEGUN TO BRING PALADINS BACK FROM THE DEAD!

Did any of you played a Paladin before? Were any of you heartbroken that your beloved Paladin character suffered the low-end of the stick since U19? I did, as so many others.

Nothing here is "meh" it is flat-out 100% better than it is on live.

The old Holy Sword spell is a worthless pile of dun, while it may be "meh" of usefulness in the levels of 15 to 20. By the time you get to Epics, it becomes meaningless.

Now the spell is what it was meant to be, a Weapon Buff. Don't you get it? You can turn any +5 weapon with a +2[w] damage on with a crit multiplier of x2 and crit range of like 18-20 into a +7 weapon with a +3[w] damage with a crit multiplier of x3 and a crit range of 15-20 by level 14! . Its not that hard to reach these levels now anyway.

I mean for offense, but I am sick and tired of all this hate toward something that buffs the Paladin class. This "hatred" is very pathetic people.

The thing I don't get is that the last update had the best CC class gain the best DPS chain and the best melee instant kill in the game along with Evasion and NO ONE complained about that like they have with paladins with Holy Sword.

As others pointed out, Holy Sword appears to be dispellable and it's no longer permanent nor a DR breaker anymore nor does it contain burst holy damage either. Paladins' smite still has all the same limitations except it gains a 10 seconds of 10 melee Power in a tier 4 ability of a single tree. And Paladins finally gain an unlimited general DPS clicky (in fact 2 of them) that EVERY class gets even if they aren't a melee class, such as wizards and sorcerers.

[oradafu]

The new Holy Sword spell is very powerful. By my count, it provides five different powerful effects to the weapon. (1W, Good damage, crit mult, crit range, crit range).

Sorry, but I don't see good damage anywhere in the new description. I see a "+2 Holy bonus to enhancement value" so it can stack with other enhancment bonuses. That just means it gets a +2 to-hit and +2 base damage compared to other weapons. DR breaking of good won't happen for paladins unless the take the KOTC capstone (if it's ever fixed).

[Standal]

Sorry, but I don't see good damage anywhere in the new description. I see a "+2 Holy bonus to enhancement value" so it can stack with other enhancment bonuses. That just means it gets a +2 to-hit and +2 base damage compared to other weapons. DR breaking of good won't happen for paladins unless the take the KOTC capstone (if it's ever fixed).

If you run in DC you get Blessed Blades. Combined with a Thunderforged weapon, you've got the new Min II. Except that you can also put whatever damage enhancers you want on it.

[oradafu]

If you run in DC you get Blessed Blades. Combined with a Thunderforged weapon, you've got the new Min II. Except that you can also put whatever damage enhancers you want on it.

And what does that have to do with Holy Sword giving Good damage or not? I was refuting the statement that new Holy Sword will provide good damage, which clearly it does not. It only provides a new +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon.

[Wakkander]

I look forward to trying out the paladin once these changes are made. It was always one of my favorite pnp classes, just a shame it hasn't really been all that useful of late in DDO.

That said I would like to see divine might changed to be more in line with the pnp version and be a damage bonus instead of a strength one, which limits the number of viable builds a paladin can have. At present you mostly have to be strength/charisma based, with it being a damage bonus instead you could see some fun with a tanky dwarf paladin that was con/cha based instead, or all charisma based pdk/paladin. Cap the bonus to be the same as divine grace was if it would be too powerful otherwise if you have to, but I would like more options.

[bennyson]

It only provides a new +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon.

Wrong

The spell is being redesigned as follows.

Holy Sword
Evocation (Good spells)
Paladin 4
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Metamagic: Quicken
Range: Touch
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds

Channels holy power to increase the effectiveness of your equipped weapons. Weapons you currently are wielding gain an additional +2 holy bonus to enhancement value and +1[W]. The spell also gives a +1 Competent bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon.

Sev~

Its not just "+2 enhancement". It is +2 enhan, +1[w] and +1 to threat range and critical multiplier. The Holy Burst effect is laughable.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Suggestion

Holy mount

At level 4 a paladin can call a holy mount to aid him.

At level 4 summon celestial warhorse
At level 6 summon hippogriff
At level 8 summon giant eagle
At level 10 summon dragonnel
At level 12 summon pseudodragon
At level 14 summon very young silver dragon
At level 16 summon young silver dragon
At level 18 summon very young gold dragon
At level 20 summon young gold dragon

While on his mount a paladin gains 40% bonus to his base movement rate.

A paladin's mount can attack normally, knocking prone large or smaller targets for 6 seconds on a critical hit, this does not prevent the paladin from attacking in the same round.

Once a minute a paladin can charge, granting an additional 40% bonus to movement for one minute, all attacks while charging do double damage. The mount cannot use it's kick attacks while charging, but all medium and smaller targets in it's path are overrun and take 2d6 + str mod trample damage.

Any beneficial spells the paladin casts on himself also effect his mount

A paladins mount can use the better of either it's own saving throw score or the paladins.

At level 8 a paladin's mount gains the improved evasion feat

At level 12 a paladins mount has spell resistance equal to 10 + the paladin's level.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



nah, let's just give them extra remove disease, smh

The *new* holy sword is table scraps compared to how powerful paladins should be.

[ddorimble]

Wrong



Its not just "+2 enhancement". It is +2 enhan, +1[w] and +1 to threat range and critical multiplier. The Holy Burst effect is laughable.

I don't think you followed the gist of that exchange. It was regarding comments about the 'Good' damage type.

The 'it only provides a +2 enhancement bonus' comment was addressing the confusion from the spell description that says '+2 holy bonus to enhancement value'. oradafu was saying that description does not imply that you get the 'Good' damage type on your weapon, just that 'it only provides a +2 enhancement bonus'. It's a bonus of type 'Holy', not 'Holy' damage.

[oradafu]

Wrong



Its not just "+2 enhancement". It is +2 enhan, +1[w] and +1 to threat range and critical multiplier. The Holy Burst effect is laughable.

Re-read what I was talking about. Scrabbler claimed that Holy Sword had GOOD DAMAGE, which I stated:

Sorry, but I don't see good damage anywhere in the new description. I see a "+2 Holy bonus to enhancement value" so it can stack with other enhancment bonuses. That just means it gets a +2 to-hit and +2 base damage compared to other weapons. DR breaking of good won't happen for paladins unless the take the KOTC capstone (if it's ever fixed).

Then Standel responded by telling me to pick up stuff from EDs and make a Thunderholme weapon, which had nothing to do with my statement that Holy Sword lacked good damage. That's where you took my "It only provides a new +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon" out of context.

[BDog77]

ENOUGH OF THIS HATRED!

This is THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME THAT THE DEVELOPERS HAVE BEGUN TO BRING PALADINS BACK FROM THE DEAD!

Did any of you played a Paladin before? Were any of you heartbroken that your beloved Paladin character suffered the low-end of the stick since U19? I did, as so many others.

Nothing here is "meh" it is flat-out 100% better than it is on live.

The old Holy Sword spell is a worthless pile of dun, while it may be "meh" of usefulness in the levels of 15 to 20. By the time you get to Epics, it becomes meaningless.

Now the spell is what it was meant to be, a Weapon Buff. Don't you get it? You can turn any +5 weapon with a +2[w] damage on with a crit multiplier of x2 and crit range of like 18-20 into a +7 weapon with a +3[w] damage with a crit multiplier of x3 and a crit range of 15-20 by level 14! . Its not that hard to reach these levels now anyway.

I mean for offense, but I am sick and tired of all this hate toward something that buffs the Paladin class. This "hatred" is very pathetic people.

Ok, first of all, there are limited weapons with a +2[W] at level 14, in epic weapons, sure, not likely at 14 though.

Secondly, yes, my main is a Pally (now TRing, but intended to go back to Pally) and my best secondary character is also a Pally (both pure, btw), and yes, we got the short end of the stick since U19. And, yes, had they decided instead to give us just a plus one to damage, that would be an improvement.

BUT

What we got instead was a big build up, "an enhancement pass designed to make Pallys viable choice's for melee again!!!!" People talked about spells (all of them, not just Holy Sword), and Sev seemed to be listening. I awaited the announcement with great anticipation after seeing the sweeping changes made to Bard Enhancement trees. And then, oh joy, the day was finally here!

Bam, 2 new cleaves (don't get me wrong, for this alone I absolutely thank Sev, best part of the add, and a huge boost to my Pallys, especially with the changes to OC), our light damage scales with MP, which might be good, might not be (I can't tell till we see it work, I do know however, that with the nerf already to MP, that 100% and 200% scaling is ALREADY worth less than it was), and one (1) spell. Really? But Bard got......oh nevermind. On top of that, a few people cried that Holy Sword was too good if it stacked (for what? 2 builds?) and so it got nerfed.

So, 2 of the 3 things we got were nerfed before we could even test them. Remember what didn't get nerfed, despite a huge outcry that it was OP? Yeah, SWF and Swashbuckler. So, I'm staring at that stick again, and you know, this still looks like the short end to me....

So, yeah, to say I'm underwhelmed would be understating it. I don't even need to see Vanguard to know that. If the same sweeping 2 changes hit Sacred Defender (which as a PRE, I am actually less interested in than KoTC, since I'm not actually interested in a Pally Tank), we will have a grand total of 4 changes and a whole new PRE (which we will also share with Fighter), which is nice, it really is, no sarcasm. It's better than it was and that's a good thing. The rest is my fault, I saw what happened to Bards, and I finally dared to hope....

[B0ltdrag0n]

The new Holy Sword spell is very powerful. By my count, it provides five different powerful effects to the weapon. (1W, Good damage, crit mult, crit range, crit range).

I suggest that the benefit of Holy Sword scale up according to your Paladin class level or caster level. Don't give all the improvements at once; keep some reward for staying with Paladin past 15th.

Holy Sword
Evocation (Good spells)
Paladin 4
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Metamagic: Quicken
Range: Touch
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds

Channels holy power to increase the effectiveness of your equipped weapons. Weapons you currently are wielding gain an additional +2 holy bonus to enhancement value and +1[W]. The spell also gives a +1 Competent bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon.

Nthing here says is breaks good DR. It also only gains +1 range and Multiplier. 1W and +2 regular bonus to hit and damage. Which is not even close to what you seem to think it gives....It might break Good DR but nothing about it being a (good) spell or that bonus type means it inheriently will break good DR. UNless it is coded like Righteous.

It does not give +2 crit range for instance. >.> Im not sure how you even read that.

[jakeelala]

if nothing else this thread highlights well just how incredibly poor the understanding is of many people who speak authoritatively on the forums about builds and game mechanics.

It's actually a little frightening. Maths is hard I guess.

Holy Sword is excellent and very powerful.

Anyone who is saying it's not really just doesn't understand how damage is done in this game or how to properly build characters. Thankfully I believe the Devs and player council realize this.

I hope.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I think it also highlights how some people have pet builds they don't want to have to work on more because they might change.

You are right though it is still a good spell. Though 14 levels to get there is still quite the price comparatively. I also do not think many are saying it isn't a good spell. I think instead you have those saying it is still too good (bafflingly), and those who are still annoyed it was changed from the initial proposal.

[oradafu]

BTW what happened to the AoE damage from Smites that was mentioned by Severin before he posted this thread? As I stated before, Smites seem to be essentially the same as before except for the Empowered Smite that provides a 10 sec 10 melee power buff that's a tier 4 KOTC ability.

[Sarramark]

Greetings,

• 41 AP, class level 20: Champion of Good: You gain +4 Charisma and 10 Melee Power. The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. Your attacks now deal 8d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

In light of the changes to Holy Sword, I would suggest changing the last sentence of this to "Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned and Metalline for purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

[QUOTE}

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Censure Demons: You gain On Vorpal: Stuns Chaotic Evil outsiders for 3 seconds.

Tier Five (40 AP Required)
• Censure Outsiders: Your Censure Demons ability now applies to all Chaotic or Evil outsiders.

Sev~[/QUOTE]

Given the that these only work on Vorpal hits against a very restricted group of enemies, this duration is too short. I would suggest setting it to a number of seconds equal to the character's Charisma modifier.


While we are on the topic of paladins, those who follow the Silver Flame benefit far less from their religious feats than other paladins. I would suggest the following changes to those feats to adjust this.

Child of the Silver Flame: You follow the Silver Flame. You have +1 to attack and damage rolls with Longbows Additionally you gain the Conjure Arrows ability (Conjures a stack of +1 returning arrows).

Beloved of the Silver Flame: You follow the Silver Flame. You have +1 to attack and damage rolls with Longbows. Additionally, if you have paladin levels, you are now able to use the Smite Evil feat with Longbows.

If there is a problem with this being a feat for paladins, clerics and favored souls, make it a new feat for paladins (Templar of the Silver Flame), and keep the old feat for clerics and favored souls.

I suggest three alternatives for making Silver Flame Exorcism more useful for paladins :

The simplest change is to modify the last sentence of the description from "The Save DC for this ability is 10 + Cleric Level + Charisma Modifier." to "The Save DC for this ability is 10 + Divine Caster Level + Charisma Modifier.
This still leaves a paladin 's DC four lower than Cleric with the same Charisma.

Alternatively, completely change the feat:

Silver Flame Exorcism: Expend a use of Turn Undead to give your equipped Longbow the Banishing attribute for 30 seconds. Cool down: 300 seconds.

or take a more classic D&D approach and switch the level requirements between Silver Flame Exorcism and Beloved of the Silver Flame:

Silver Flame Exorcism ( prerequisites: Paladin or Cleric level 12, Follower of the Silver Flame): You gain the ability to affect Evil Outsiders with the Turn Undead feat

[Nodoze]

what i would like to see is:

...divine might should return to being a DAMAGE bonus, so builds that utilize other stats for damage can USE IT.

... devs you could consider replaceing the faith choices with a set of few favored weapons (longsword, greatsword, warhammer, morningstar, maul etc. either one per choice or a set of weapons, based on the type of paladin, maybe named after subtypes of paladins from pnp) ...

I also would prefer Divine Might return to being a Damage bonus rather than pigeon hole Paladins to only being strength based. That being said I would support having multi-selector to also continue to allow Strength or Damage as it is on live now after the change awhile back... Somewhere up above calculations were done showing that Strength based would still come out ahead on Damage (due to fighting styles rewarding Strength stat) as well as higher tactics but those gains are offset by the benefits of the other stat being focused on (for example, if Charisma less Damage but higher saves).

I also agree that Diety Weapons should be fleshed out more. For example Dwarves should have a diety that favors Dwarven Axes...