Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[BDog77]

Either way, incompatibility with Deadly Weapons is not a drawback for new-version Holy Sword.

But it is, cause the new thing that is supposed to make the "meh" of having it changed to a competence bonus is already available to you in game! All this means is that Pallys no longer have to group with Artys to get deadly weapons. Now that is the very definition of "meh" to me.

Also, explain to me again why it HAD to be a competence bonus because it stacked with enhancements when as someone has pointed out at least twice in this thread that unlike enhancements this can be DISPELLED?. Or, possibly the intention is to make it not subject to being dispelled, maybe only Quelled? What about that, Sev? Actually, the nice thing about the old version is that it couldn't be dispelled. You wouldn't run up to a beholder, and suddenly have a weaker weapon (I shudder to think of Ghosts of Perdition for my Pally and his shiny new Holy Sword, might as well be a cardboard sword then).

Eh, I'm really trying hard to NOT feel like one other poster said in here, leave Pallys alone, at least then we won't come out worse, but goshdarn it, it's getting awful hard to not feel that way up in here. Dispellable Holy Swords, Holy Retribution still taking up a tier 5 slot, bah.

Our Divine Might working on a limited resource (while clerics and FVS have no such limitation) that has several other possibly useful things trying to use the same resource, bah, humbug.

I guess I'm just in a glass half empty mood tonight. Could we please find out if the Holy Sword spell is intended to be dispellable or not?

Thanks,
B

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Well, Acrobats do have a few Cleaves that does more damage than the feat, but they deserve it.

On the other hand, I didn't hear anyone complaining about Eldritch Knight gaining +1[w] and +2[w] Cleaves in their tree that cost no feats, and they're not melees.

Although not a Cleave, I believe I was the only person that complained that Warpriests gained +[w] melee attack with an unlimited 15 second cooldown and I was told that it was such a small amount of damage that I should shut up about it. And again, Warpriests are not really from a melee class and can heal and nuke better than a paladin.

i cant speak for everyone else but...eks...really? take 14 pally vs 14 wiz/sorc, fleshy or robot for either (with the new kotc tree and holy sword). which one are you gonna pick if youre building a melee? ill take pally every time, because youre right, casters are not melees despite the existence of that tree. also eks dont get any critical modifiers.

warpriest smite does have a lengthy cd and is not an aoe effect. smite is 2.5 times longer cd than cleave, which you usually have two or more of, which means the amount of extra damage from those spammable aoe +[w] stacks up big time compared to warpriest smite. additionally warpriests also dont get any critical modifiers.

staff users dont get glancing blows on cleaves? or something like that? not sure if that balances things out but on that note im not a huge fan of staves getting +1 crit range and multiplier, or assassins getting it for daggers, or swashbucklers getting +1bazillion crit range. just takes away from the classes that used to have that unique perk and causes future power creep and balance issues. but hey, why come up with an interesting and different means for classes to deal dps differently and thematically today when you can do that tomorrow...

[janave]

This is an interesting addition. I think this may be best to add later on in enhancements instead of directly adding it onto the existing bonuses of holy sword. In other words, adding +1[w] with all weapons to the lvl 18 core or capstone of the two current Paladin trees or possibly just at paladin lvl 18. Currently the boost in paladin power at level 14 really outshines everything left for the paladin to gain, and as such as a player I would feel like there's little to look forward to while leveling 15-20. This would also give pure/lightly splashed paladins a further boost, although that's probably not completely necessary now that the crit bonuses are non stacking.

As a side question: Is this to help keep competitive base damage compared to centered fighters using a dance with flowers?

Comp.out.

I like it.

I think an interesting workaround, to make core abilities or capstone change the competence bonus to "holy" or whatever, at level 20 they are considered closer to their divine sources. Similarly to FvS, and Monks who also gain bonuses from going all the way to 20.

This would also make exclusive with the exploiter build that aim to max crit bonuses only. Splashes still get to enjoy the competence version and the +W, which is still nice to be "slotted".

Seems like win-win to me.

[oradafu]

i cant speak for everyone else but...eks...really? take 14 pally vs 14 wiz/sorc, fleshy or robot for either (with the new kotc tree and holy sword). which one are you gonna pick if youre building a melee? ill take pally every time, because youre right, casters are not melees despite the existence of that tree. also eks dont get any critical modifiers.

warpriest smite does have a lengthy cd and is not an aoe effect. smite is 2.5 times longer cd than cleave, which you usually have two or more of, which means the amount of extra damage from those spammable aoe +[w] stacks up big time compared to warpriest smite. additionally warpriests also dont get any critical modifiers.

staff users dont get glancing blows on cleaves? or something like that? not sure if that balances things out but on that note im not a huge fan of staves getting +1 crit range and multiplier, or assassins getting it for daggers, or swashbucklers getting +1bazillion crit range. just takes away from the classes that used to have that unique perk and causes future power creep and balance issues. but hey, why come up with an interesting and different means for classes to deal dps differently and thematically today when you can do that tomorrow...

First, the spamming AoE Cleaves that Eldritch Knights get only involve 1 and 5 levels of each class, whereas paladins get them at levels 2 and 5, so the 14 vs 14 doesn't matter. Second, even though Eldritch Knights (and Warpriests) aren't melees, with only 5 levels of any of those 4 classes, they gain permanent full BAB in epics which not even melee classes gain, so better PRR and faster attacks than pure melees.

As for Staves not getting glancing blows on Cleaves, that's something that has been broken longer than the paladin capstone and I've never seen a Dev claim that it was WAI. I've seen them ignore the question when it's been brought to their attention, but I've never seen a single Dev claim its WAI.

Anyway, I never got a response on if lacking the Cleaves and Power Attack feats will work with Momentum Swing and Lay Waste in the LD ED, so there's a chance that Paladins still need to pick up all three of those feats anyway. So it looks like some people might have to continue to pick up those 3 feats anyway.

[Scrabbler]

All this means is that Pallys no longer have to group with Artys to get deadly weapons.

There's been no announcement that Paladins will get the ability to cast Deadly Weapons, or that Holy Sword will not stack with Deadly Weapons.

In the most obvious implementation the devs can use, Holy Sword and Deadly Weapons will fully stack.

Also, explain to me again why it HAD to be a competence bonus because it stacked with enhancements when as someone has pointed out at least twice in this thread that unlike enhancements this can be DISPELLED?. Or, possibly the intention is to make it not subject to being dispelled, maybe only Quelled? What about that, Sev?

Because of the mechanics and frequency of Dispel Magic effects, it is ineffective as a counterbalanced to the high power of non-Competence Holy Sword.

Actually, the nice thing about the old version is that it couldn't be dispelled.

Having a +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron Greatsword that didn't get dispelled was meaningless, because a +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron Greatsword was inferior to your regular weapon.

[Scrabbler]

Mostly cause I dont want to be griefed by people casting something bad like Flaming Weapons on the guy either.

As a self-only weapon buff, there's no reason to expect that Holy Sword can be canceled by Elemental Weapon, Deadly Weapon, or things like that. The existing self-only weapon buffs aren't canceled by those things, so why would Holy Sword be different?

[BDog77]

Having a +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron Greatsword that didn't get dispelled was meaningless, because a +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron Greatsword was inferior to your regular weapon.

Except when you had no DR breaker. Note that while it was cold iron, it actually functioned as metalline, covering the same mobs as Metalline of Pure Good. I am not arguing the merits of new vs. old here, but you should describe the old one as +5 Holy Burst Metalline "Weapon" (didn't have to be a Greatsword, but types were somewhat limited, no Falchon, for example) for accuracy.

As someone pointed out, it might be more new player friendly to leave the old spell in the game. I know my main used it from 14-20 extensively.

[Scrabbler]

Except when you had no DR breaker.

The list of monsters with Good+Metal DR and Anti-Magic Field is very short.

[BDog77]

The list of monsters with Good+Metal DR and Anti-Magic Field is very short.

My remark was, of course, in response to your remark about +5 Holy Burst Metalline weapon being inferior to your normal weapon (which it might not be in all cases), not an argument that magic dispelling monsters need DR breakers.

Above you also took my remark about Pally getting Deadly Weapons out of context. I'll take this time to explain that one too. If Holy Sword gains +1[W] to make up for changing the crit bonus to competence, then it's compatibility with Deadly weapons does matter very much (remember, this was in response to your statement that incompatibility with deadly weapons is not a drawback to the new version Holy Sword). If it turns out not to be compatible with Deadly Weapons, then the added +1[W] (which some people think turns it back into "Whoa!") is simply (effectively) giving Paladins the Deadly Weapons spell as a tack on, certainly NOT something that turns the Holy Sword spell back into "Whoa!", IMO. In fact, the new/new Holy sword spell is simply the old/new Holy Sword spell (with it's bonus to crit changed to competence) plus Deadly Weapons IF, and only IF, the new/new Holy Sword spell does NOT stack with Deadly Weapons. If it DOES stack with Deadly Weapons, then it is it's own new thing, and I heartily applaud it.

[Scrabbler]

My remark was, of course, in response to your remark about +5 Holy Burst Metalline weapon being inferior to your normal weapon (which it might not be in all cases), not an argument that magic dispelling monsters need DR breakers.

And since dispelling monsters do not need DR breakers, the old Holy Sword was inferior to your normal weapons.

If Holy Sword gains +1[W] to make up for changing the crit bonus to competence

There's no reason to think that would be the case; the Paladin class has no other way to get a competence bonus to crit profile.

As someone pointed out, it might be more new player friendly to leave the old spell in the game.

That's backwards: the old Holy Sword was unfriendly to new players, because it lured them into the idea that Paladin levels granted you a useful item. In contrast, the new Holy Sword simply gives the character so much power he doesn't care about getting the right weapon.

[btolson]

Also, given the anti-undead/outsider theme of KotC, consider granting silver and cold iron bypass somewhere in the tree, likely in t5 (capstone is too late; frankly the good bypass should move somewhere earlier as well so that it can actually be used while leveling). There is really no need for Censure Outsider to exist in t5; just delete Censure Demon and move Censure Outsider to t4 to make space.

It just occurred to me that this will also preserve most of the current version of Holy Sword's functionality (you'd lose byeshk bypass) after the new version is added.

[BDog77]

And since dispelling monsters do not need DR breakers, the old Holy Sword was inferior to your normal weapons.


There's no reason to think that would be the case; the Paladin class has no other way to get a competence bonus to crit profile.



That's backwards: the old Holy Sword was unfriendly to new players, because it lured them into the idea that Paladin levels granted you a useful item. In contrast, the new Holy Sword simply gives the character so much power he doesn't care about getting the right weapon.

Whoa! Alright, big guy, I'm done. Maybe some other people will at least read my posts and understand them, instead of picking out a few sentence and taking them out of context.

[bloodnose13]

what i would like to see is:

first a way to scale down what paladin splash gives, and i think it should work like this:
its all in ratio, if in for example 10 level character has 10 paladin levels it counts as 100%, if its 2 paladin levels and 8 something else, it becomes 20%, and this % should be used to scale BONUSES given by holy sword, divine might, divine grace.... leveing all that stuff give 100% benefits to splashes is just too good.

divine might should return to being a DAMAGE bonus, so builds that utilize other stats for damage can USE IT.

how to implement it?, easy replace the faith enchancements that every divine gets at lvl 1, and add this % check to them.

deity choices at lvl 1 have no real meaning, since most races get ONLY 1 choice....... yea lets call it a choice...... even if there is a choice, the real reason for takeing one and not other is what the second higher tier gives, and mostly its sov host for its healing ability. devs you could consider replaceing the faith choices with a set of few favored weapons (longsword, greatsword, warhammer, morningstar, maul etc. either one per choice or a set of weapons, based on the type of paladin, maybe named after subtypes of paladins from pnp) and even out those weapons similary to what swashbuckler stance does with finesseable weapons, and then make holy sword spell work ONLY with those weapons. as long as you will allow for holy sword to be used with ANY weapon, you will have problems cropping out left and right.

[B0ltdrag0n]

As a self-only weapon buff, there's no reason to expect that Holy Sword can be canceled by Elemental Weapon, Deadly Weapon, or things like that. The existing self-only weapon buffs aren't canceled by those things, so why would Holy Sword be different?

Based on every ability that has come out with anything similar since then. (Crown of Summer) There is no reason for me to think it will work with deadly. Do I think it should? Yes. Do I think it does or will? No.

[Lonnbeimnech]

what i would like to see is:

first a way to scale down what paladin splash gives, and i think it should work like this:
its all in ratio, if in for example 10 level character has 10 paladin levels it counts as 100%, if its 2 paladin levels and 8 something else, it becomes 20%, and this % should be used to scale BONUSES given by holy sword, divine might, divine grace.... leveing all that stuff give 100% benefits to splashes is just too good.

divine might should return to being a DAMAGE bonus, so builds that utilize other stats for damage can USE IT.

how to implement it?, easy replace the faith enchancements that every divine gets at lvl 1, and add this % check to them.

deity choices at lvl 1 have no real meaning, since most races get ONLY 1 choice....... yea lets call it a choice...... even if there is a choice, the real reason for takeing one and not other is what the second higher tier gives, and mostly its sov host for its healing ability. devs you could consider replaceing the faith choices with a set of few favored weapons (longsword, greatsword, warhammer, morningstar, maul etc. either one per choice or a set of weapons, based on the type of paladin, maybe named after subtypes of paladins from pnp) and even out those weapons similary to what swashbuckler stance does with finesseable weapons, and then make holy sword spell work ONLY with those weapons. as long as you will allow for holy sword to be used with ANY weapon, you will have problems cropping out left and right.

Man, there is so much paladin hate, it's amazing.

This is and has been one of the weakest classes in the game since the batman build got nerfed; the devs want to improve it, and the player base is hell bent on nerfing it back to oblivion before it even hits lamannia. Why?

[B0ltdrag0n]

what i would like to see is:

first a way to scale down what paladin splash gives, and i think it should work like this:
its all in ratio, if in for example 10 level character has 10 paladin levels it counts as 100%, if its 2 paladin levels and 8 something else, it becomes 20%, and this % should be used to scale BONUSES given by holy sword, divine might, divine grace.... leveing all that stuff give 100% benefits to splashes is just too good.

divine might should return to being a DAMAGE bonus, so builds that utilize other stats for damage can USE IT.

how to implement it?, easy replace the faith enchancements that every divine gets at lvl 1, and add this % check to them.

deity choices at lvl 1 have no real meaning, since most races get ONLY 1 choice....... yea lets call it a choice...... even if there is a choice, the real reason for takeing one and not other is what the second higher tier gives, and mostly its sov host for its healing ability. devs you could consider replaceing the faith choices with a set of few favored weapons (longsword, greatsword, warhammer, morningstar, maul etc. either one per choice or a set of weapons, based on the type of paladin, maybe named after subtypes of paladins from pnp) and even out those weapons similary to what swashbuckler stance does with finesseable weapons, and then make holy sword spell work ONLY with those weapons. as long as you will allow for holy sword to be used with ANY weapon, you will have problems cropping out left and right.

I have so rarely been able to definitively say no to an entire post before without acknowledging at least some point in it in which I would be ok with.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Also why do people keep saying Paladin is one of the highest defensive classes and deserves no real melee bonuses? The ability to use LoH 3-5 times does not a 'defensive minded class' make. Other than that (something mitigated by twists in epic levels) Fighters can do the same thing and have better (or basically the exact same) trees and feats and class splits available to them.

[maddong]

I think we are to the point where enough people are happy and mad that it is probably balanced. You could have the +1w only kick in at caster level 20 (although 15 and maxed divine ed would qualify then) to give incentive for pure without locking you into a particular capstone.

[Monkey_Archer]

I think we are to the point where enough people are happy and mad that it is probably balanced. You could have the +1w only kick in at caster level 20 (although 15 and maxed divine ed would qualify then) to give incentive for pure without locking you into a particular capstone.

Depends what you mean by balanced. If you mean 15 paladin builds can compete with any of the other top builds, then yes I'd say its balanced. If you mean a pure 20 paladin can compete, well I'm not so sure, but most pure builds of other melee classes cant compete either.

[Krelar]

Will these new cleave enhancements count towards the prereqs for momentum swing and lay waste? (As well as the chance to reset the cool downs)

If not you still aren't freeing up feats most people not planning a tank.