Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Coldin]

I'm sorry, but I am unaware of any class that in 14 levels can receive +1 Threat and +1 Multiplier to ANY weapon they equip.

Sigh.

Rogue Assassin:
Knife Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range


Requires 5 levels in rogue and 12th level.


Or if you want even earlier.

Bard Swashbuckler:
Swashbuckling: Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier

Requires just 3 levels in bard.


Now, this isn't any weapon, but that's only consideration with certain weapons that are already superior for crit profile. We also have to consider if the 14 levels of Paladin actually stack up against 14 levels of Bard. Are those 14 levels holding the paladin back, and Holy Sword just brings them up to parity? I'm really skeptical that KotC will be enough of a boost considering how far behind Paladins are to other melee classes.

[Arashiro]

I am late to this discussion about the changes to the Holy Sword spell, but I do have a suggestion. Please keep the "old" Holy Sword spell and make the "new" Holy Sword spell another spell, perhaps called Divine Sword. The old Holy Sword spell harkens back to D&D lore and would benefit newbies who don't have access to metalline weapons.
Also, please add more spells to Paladin spell list. Some recommendations: Level 1: Nightshield, Shield of Faith; Level 2: Aid, Mass Shield of Faith; Level 3: Mass Aid, Protection from Energy; Level 4: Spell Resistance, "Divine Sword." I chose spells that are protective and with exception of Nightshield and Divine Sword, could target an Ally.

[Thar]

What the heck man. You are not assisting in making more paladin class levels appealing. That was the original design goal. You are pseudo buffing one enhancement tree, in a way more lateral than vertical.

Revert it, or tell us what the actual goal is now. Because the last goal stated doesnt make sense with the changes being made.

Not sure what else to say. Your actions speak louder than words, and with no reasoning or examples given we are left to simply stare at those actions in disbelief. It defies logic. It is disheartening. Just leave the game alone. Thats my feedback on your changes. Stop.

If this doesn't stack with other effects it will be useless in all but mid heroic levels.

[oradafu]

I find it Hilarious that people like bbqzor are making fallacious arguments that other classes have easier to obtain and equivalent abilities. I'm sorry, but I am unaware of any class that in 14 levels can receive +1 Threat and +1 Multiplier to ANY weapon they equip.

You are so correct... By level 12, Monks in Earth form can gain a stacking (up to 5 times) +1 critical threat AND the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20. Oh, and it only involves having 5 monk levels, instead of the 14 levels that those nasty Paladins need to invest into.

[btolson]

I'm agreed with many others here that these changes leave paladin levels lacking again. Not all the impetus to take paladin levels should come from Holy Sword, though. More things spread across more levels should be offered.


New Paladin spells are essential, especially at levels 2 and 3. You've said you wanted to make Paladin spell-casting more relevant, Holy Sword itself is not enough to do that. At least one spell that is relatively spammable and useful is needed.

One quick spell idea: 'Divine Hammer', working similar to Power Word Stun (level 3 spell, single target, 1d4 holy damage per caster level, 3 second stun, 40 second cooldown, no save, ignores SR).

Another quick spell idea, though not of a spammable sort: 'Crusade', level 2 spell, creates a 60-foot personal aura lasting 1 minute/caster level. All allies in the aura receive a +1 sacred bonus to hit and damage per 5 caster levels, to a maximum casting level of 25.


Consider adding the Radiance weapon effect (4d6 light damage, blind on crit) somewhere as part of the KotC tree, likely as the L12 core to replace the current 4d6 light damage. I feel the radiant theme of the class/pre should be expounded upon, and adding in blindness is a no-brainer. Adding in dazzling/dazing effects, perhaps even as a guard effect, would provide additional utility as well.


Also, given the anti-undead/outsider theme of KotC, consider granting silver and cold iron bypass somewhere in the tree, likely in t5 (capstone is too late; frankly the good bypass should move somewhere earlier as well so that it can actually be used while leveling). There is really no need for Censure Outsider to exist in t5; just delete Censure Demon and move Censure Outsider to t4 to make space.

[jakeelala]

Sigh.

Rogue Assassin:
Knife Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range


Requires 5 levels in rogue and 12th level.

My second post very clearly spoke to this. I said that isn't a Tier 5 (which is arguably as much of a sacrifice as a lvl 14, you can only have 1). This means we now have more CHOICES. Not less choices. Also this is only with Knives and Kukris, not ANY WEAPON. Pallys can do this with a KHOPESH. Or eSoS. Or whatever.

Or if you want even earlier.

Bard Swashbuckler:
Swashbuckling: Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier

Requires just 3 levels in bard.

I mentioned Bard also. It limits you to not having Pally or Monk, and specific offhands, and specific off hand requirements. Big trade off. Means you MUST go rogue for Evasion, or Pure.

Now, this isn't any weapon, but that's only consideration with certain weapons that are already superior for crit profile. We also have to consider if the 14 levels of Paladin actually stack up against 14 levels of Bard. Are those 14 levels holding the paladin back, and Holy Sword just brings them up to parity? I'm really skeptical that KotC will be enough of a boost considering how far behind Paladins are to other melee classes.

Yeah I don't know either.

Severlin, how are you going to make the rest of the tree worth it?

[jakeelala]

You are so correct... By level 12, Monks in Earth form can gain a stacking (up to 5 times) +1 critical threat AND the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20. Oh, and it only involves having 5 monk levels, instead of the 14 levels that those nasty Paladins need to invest into.

I'm sorry, but +1 Crit Multi on 19-20 is NOT equivalent to +1 Crit Multi (period) AND +1 Crit Threat Range. And +2 to damage. And +1[W]. And it's not all weapons , it's MONK weapons, because they have to be centered.

All the other stacking sources you mention, a paladin could get (12monk vs. 14 Pally).

What are you talking about?

[bbqzor]

Oh really? Where can you get that? And I already have thrower builds in mind if it works with throwers.

All over. Assassin, Swash, Kensei, etc. Some of them are more restricted (weapon type specific, or only 19-20s), but rather than make an exhaustive list simply allow me to reiterate that anyone who wants it can already get it, by and large. Other posters have listed some too. It may not be an exact clone for all choices, but almost all builds wind up centered around a very tiny sliver of weapons anyhow, minimizing the use of it being good on "anything", other than allowing paladins more variety in their initial build platforms (a plus I concede, albeit a small one).

Huh? You mentioned my build I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

Simply that its a build which chose to focus in on one thing, and does it extremely well, using unconventional paths of advancement. Having your T5 tree be a wizard tree, for a throwing build, is rather counter-intuitive from a "straightforward flavor" standpoint. Its a great build, I dont want to sound like Im saying anything otherwise. Only that if you set out to make a ranged guy, most people would start with ranger or fighter or what not, that would be your logical first step if you were new to the game. Only after looking very deep and mechanically does wizard come to light. Just because its a niche build doesnt mean its bad for the game. The dev here seems to look at a paladin/staff whatever as bad... its simply parallel to other builds which use non-obvious paths.

I see what you did there, you tried to rationalize what you want for the game

Its not about what I want, its about what is good for the game. More non-stacking bonuses in parallel places just lead to homogenous game play. Id like paladins to have purpose and uniqueness, not the same mods that are everywhere else all over again.

What you really did there was try to massively limit the reach and usefulness Holy Sword changes so that only a very few builds, which would have to be multi classed for the Competence/not-Competence part to really matter anyway since Paladin doesn't have other Competence critical mods

Until epic, where they do. Epic aside, its not any kind of limitation whatsoever. 20 Paladins get the same bonus either way (pre epic). It just allows multiclassing if stacking, where as it doesnt if not. Its not a limit focusing on a few builds, it just allows builds that want to stack it to do so. Thats not a limit at all... its more options.

Not cool, bro. These threads are for our edification, and his (or her I have no idea what Sev's gender is).

Its his job to know that stuff. Before designing a car engine, Id better dang well know how they work, and how the one in question being redesigned works specifically. I know that and this is just a hobby for me. I expect, and think its fair to expect, that someone being paid to do it as a means of livelyhood would be able to do at least a good a job as I can do in my off time. Cool or not, I stand by that point of view. I realize that some may disagree, sure, but its not intended to be any kind of slam. Only that for someone making a life off it, I expect a lot of time in. And hes a guy, his bio is up on the AC forums if you care to google it.

This is by far your most valuable piece of criticism in this post

Well, at least part of my effort is useful, agreements or disagreements aside. Your points here are valid... a scalar bonus would be superior in many regards. But, thats what they had in the original "we are giving paladins 1d6 light dmg every 4-5 lvls" or whatever it was, and people didnt go for that. This may be as good as it gets.

One idea might be to make the spell scale with caster level, similar to how others do. So caster level 14 is one thing, at caster level 20 it adds something else, at 25 something else, etc. Instead of just going up in bonus like Divine Favor, maybe it could add effects like Divine Vengeance (the vod sword) or something.

Anyhow, Im happy to see in depth feedback, even if its disagreements. Thats the kind of thing that should be happening here. Not a rehash of info available on the wiki at worst, and hopefully in a better documented format for the people making the game. So cheers.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Yes with the Holy Sword change...which I am ambivilant about at this point, I do think we need to see what changes to the KotC tree you have or are making. The lowering of general Melee power as well as all the absolute garbage in that tree need to be addressed or it will have actually have been made worse by the changes. (as odd as that sounds)

[Qhualor]

Yes with the Holy Sword change...which I am ambivilant about at this point, I do think we need to see what changes to the KotC tree you have or are making. The lowering of general Melee power as well as all the absolute garbage in that tree need to be addressed or it will have actually have been made worse by the changes. (as odd as that sounds)

the proposed changes are in the OP. I would say there are some definite improvements to the tree, but the current KOTC tree is far from garbage.

[B0ltdrag0n]

the proposed changes are in the OP. I would say there are some definite improvements to the tree, but the current KOTC tree is far from garbage.

That is not a correct assessment of the current tree on live, or of the one previewed. He is changing how he wants melee power to work. He specifically added that light damage to the cores (for some reason) but it will nto scale to the previous levels now, thus making it worse.

Thus I ask for the updated plan.

[oradafu]

I'm sorry, but +1 Crit Multi on 19-20 is NOT equivalent to +1 Crit Multi (period) AND +1 Crit Threat Range. And +2 to damage. And +1[W]. And it's not all weapons , it's MONK weapons, because they have to be centered.

All the other stacking sources you mention, a paladin could get (12monk vs. 14 Pally).

What are you talking about?

You want to throw some more stuff in there, fine. I was talking about 5 levels of Monk at level 12, so it's not 12 Monk. Additionally to the things I listed, a level 12 Monk can gain DR bypass for all metals. Paladins lost all their DR passing with Holy Sword and must wait stay pure and select the KOTC capstone to finally break DR (and this ability has been broken for over two years, even during the period that the Devs claimed it worked).

Since the Devs are listening to only certain people, I'm sure that +1[w] from Holy Sword will not work with Deadly, so don't worry about it because the Devs are moving to make paladins worthless once again after getting people's hopes up.

[Qhualor]

That is not a correct assessment of the current tree on live, or of the one previewed. He is changing how he wants melee power to work. He specifically added that light damage to the cores (for some reason) but it will nto scale to the previous levels now, thus making it worse.

Thus I ask for the updated plan.

he is changing melee power as we go, but he said this is basically the "player input" phase and tweaking his proposal.

light damage to the cores is to add another desire to invest more levels of paladin.

OP was updated 8/01.

[jakeelala]

You want to throw some more stuff in there, fine. I was talking about 5 levels of Monk at level 12, so it's not 12 Monk. Additionally to the things I listed, a level 12 Monk can gain DR bypass for all metals. Paladins lost all their DR passing with Holy Sword and must wait stay pure and select the KOTC capstone to finally break DR (and this ability has been broken for over two years, even during the period that the Devs claimed it worked).

Since the Devs are listening to only certain people, I'm sure that +1[w] from Holy Sword will not work with Deadly, so don't worry about it because the Devs are moving to make paladins worthless once again after getting people's hopes up.

Well they listened to me and everyone else who said change it to Competence. Maybe they'll listen again?

Severlin: Holy Sword +[W] should stack with everything.

[jakeelala]

You want to throw some more stuff in there, fine. I was talking about 5 levels of Monk at level 12, so it's not 12 Monk. Additionally to the things I listed, a level 12 Monk can gain DR bypass for all metals. Paladins lost all their DR passing with Holy Sword and must wait stay pure and select the KOTC capstone to finally break DR (and this ability has been broken for over two years, even during the period that the Devs claimed it worked).

Since the Devs are listening to only certain people, I'm sure that +1[w] from Holy Sword will not work with Deadly, so don't worry about it because the Devs are moving to make paladins worthless once again after getting people's hopes up.

I should correct myself, it's 14 Pally vs. Monk 1, 3 Feats, and a requirement to remain centered. And also as mentioned they aren't equally as powerful, Holy Sword is much better. There are also many ways to break DR now with Thunderforged and slots.

When OC comes down in cost, it will be much more attractive from a cost perspective than splashing Monk at a cost of 1 Feat, I think? Or just less than the 4 feats it costs now, can't recall).

[HatsuharuZ]

I can deal with Holy Sword being a competence bonus. In fact, it's a buff compared to what we have now, so I won't complain.

However, I still feel like paladins should have more spells unique to them, or at least more spells in the second spell level, which is sorely lacking in anything I can't get from equipment or potions.

[jakeelala]

I can deal with Holy Sword being a competence bonus. In fact, it's a buff compared to what we have now, so I won't complain.

However, I still feel like paladins should have more spells unique to them, or at least more spells in the second spell level, which is sorely lacking in anything I can't get from equipment or potions.

Personally I wish they would make a caster-type pally tree that relies on offensive auras and Turns/Smites to blast things but also would have solid Defense and saves. Would play beautifully with Divine Crusader.

[BDog77]

Severlin: Holy Sword +[W] should stack with everything.

Yes, Yes, Yes, a thousand times yes!!!! Otherwise, 14 Pally just lets you Be Your Own Artificer (with a couple fairly weak adds). A lot of "boosts' to classes lately have simply mimicked things other classes can do, and, at first, I thought this was a neat idea, "Oh, ok, now I can stay pure, and haz this ability that I otherwise couldn't get", BUT, a friend of mine (who is frequently extreme in his views) and I were discussing the game lately, and he is rabid about the problem with the classes becoming too much alike. So, I've been thinking a lot about this lately, and you know, he's right, it's a HUGE problem.

So, please, please, please let at least the +[W] be an only Paladin thing and stack with everything else in the game that comes from another class (deadly, arty weapon buff, etc.), as the entire spell should have been. I understand the arguments about multiclassiing, and why certain things (probably) shouldn't stack, but if we continue to homogenize this game and make sure that every class has access to ALL the same powers, we might as well go back to "Fighting Man", "Magic User", "Elf" (for those that don't know, elf was a class that combined Fighter and Magic User).

And the scaling effect mentioned above, continuing into Epic levels, that would be OK too (although that should also stack).

I'm very much afraid, however, that this will fall afoul of the old "only one spell on an item rule", however, and that's why trying to buff a class with just a spell is a problem....

Thanks for listening.

[Delacroix21]

We post these changes early on the forums to get feedback. The points about Holy Sword were not only well discussed, but specific builds were presented that help us focus our examinations and testing internally and iterate on changes. That discussion is what we find compelling. We fully intend to take well reasoned player feedback into account as we iterate these changes, and we feel that many players find it valuable to participate in these discussions. If we post changes early that means we are looking for player feedback and fully intend to consider it.

I realize, however, that it is difficult when someone gets excited about early iterations of design and those designs change.

Sev~

The reason for some of this fuss is the (very real fear) that Holy Sword will not work with handwraps, adding it to the very long list of things that do not.


Would it be fair if we made all these crit enhancements not work with another weapon, say greatswords or clubs or scimitars? It is a disservice to your playerbase to purposely leave 1 weapon behind while others keep getting new abilities, and thats what has been happening. We the players are also not dumb, we know this is an issue because handwraps were coded differently from weapons, and so it requires additional work to make this function for them. Cetus loves his two-handers, and quite frankly I love my handwraps. I think its no contest who gets the short end of the stick here though.


I would like to see the following work with Handwraps, as they should have always done so=
1. Pulverizer (Legendary Drednaught)
2. Celestial Champion (Divine Crusader)
3. Holy Sword (Coming Soon...)

[oradafu]

The reason for some of this fuss is the (very real fear) that Holy Sword will not work with handwraps, adding it to the very long list of things that do not.


Would it be fair if we made all these crit enhancements not work with another weapon, say greatswords or clubs or scimitars? It is a disservice to your playerbase to purposely leave 1 weapon behind while others keep getting new abilities, and thats what has been happening. We the players are also not dumb, we know this is an issue because handwraps were coded differently from weapons, and so it requires additional work to make this function for them. Cetus loves his two-handers, and quite frankly I love my handwraps. I think its no contest who gets the short end of the stick here though.


I would like to see the following work with Handwraps, as they should have always done so=
1. Pulverizer (Legendary Drednaught)
2. Celestial Champion (Divine Crusader)
3. Holy Sword (Coming Soon...)

Frankly, I'm not concerned about Holy Sword working or not working on Handwraps or Ranged. My argument was limiting Holy Swords to just swords, when in fact the pnp version has been for ANY equipped melee weapon. It's bad enough that the Devs have changed Divine Might and many other Paladin stuff away from pnp stuff, but to make the only announced change that all Paladins get to work on less weapons than pnp would have been too far.

If the spell is expanded to non-melee weapons, great. But if expanding the spell to work with those weapons causes the spell to be less powerful and not stacking with stuff, I say remove the non-melee weapons.

I'm not worried about monks and their stupid wraps in this discussion. I'm worried about Paladins in this discussion.