Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[oradafu]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

So what's wrong with actually using the source material version of Divine Might which is to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage? Why does it have to be half? I don't understand why this particular thing falls into moving away from the source material when many want it to be like the source material. Wasn't the argument against boosting the core of Paladins with Light damage and sticking it into a tree was because some people didn't like your move away from the source material? It doesn't make since to me why the Light damage which is being added and used to boost the whole class is shoved into a tree and to get full benefit involves full commitment in that tree, while Divine Might being a low hung fruit can help all builds if it works exactly like the pnp version (just as it did before it became a STR booster).

Geez, whatever. Divine Might adding just damage will once against boost all attacks (and help smites) by adding to the base damage. It's better than it currently is and closer to the source material.

Well i had thought the spell was named Holy SWORD for a reason.

It may be called Holy SWORD, but the source material allows it to work with "your sword, or any other melee weapon you choose." We're losing it's metalline and holy damage and the "protection of evil" (that may or may not be broken) so that scales into epics with all weapons, instead of the current select few melee weapons that don't scale once you start using post-MOTU weapons (if not earlier because I forget if the Holy Sword ever got the +W added to it that named weapons got).

I don't think players should be forced into using only one type of weapon for the whole class. Heck, currently monks can use any weapon if they splash Fighter. I don't see why there are players that continually want to force all paladins into using only a longsword. If longswords (and bastard swords) get a boost in the core of the paladin's shield trees, I'm fine with that. But forcing players to only use one weapon (or just as bad the favored weapon) is going in the wrong direction for the class.

[bbqzor]

The Cleaves cost 1/2/3

As in, 1/1/1 so 3 total, or as printed meaning 6 total? Obviously will have to wait until it hits lama to offer real-deal feedback (depending on how it plays when actually used in game), but I can say that 6ap total seems high and 3 ap seems fair. First impression etc.

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

Let me say, flatly, NO to competence. NO NO NO. The game does not need something granted to paladins at lv14, which does NOT stack with many other things, which simply mirrors what other classes can do much earlier (via enhancements). This does nothing to reward making a deeper investment into Paladin.

Furthermore, making it a T5 enhancement (not suggested by devs, but some players have put that forth) likewise does nothing to reward making a deeper investment into paladin, AND, additionally just means all paladins cannot access it- only ones in that enhancement line. This is an even worse situation... the goal is to make 1) Paladins, as a class, more appealing to take actual levels in, by 2) increasing some spells and reworking enhancements, with an emphasis on the core since its tied to levels. Adding some T5 thing isnt going to do even a fraction of that.

If people want to say "oh its going to make everyone roll 14/x paladins zomgs"... just no. With all the other changes coming as part of the package, no way. Paladins could get some better profiles, in some cases with multiclassing better by a fair margin, but thats hardly going to turn everyone into one. There are far, far too many alternatives to result in everyone going this direction. Its simply another good thing, not so good that it becomes the only thing. Making it competence is beyond "meh"... its almost pointless. Anyone who finds such things absolutely necessary for a build can already get them. Adding another source will help those builds out, but it wont suddenly give paladin anything it couldnt already get for less.

Its the same reason everyone isnt a monkcher or swf-shield-druid or whatever now. Max dps under some singular build condition isnt the driving force behind every character. Having paladins have a good path to meaningful dps isnt a game breaker, its a game builder. For people who think its "the bees knees" hey great go roll one. But its hardly going to undermine anything. Making it competence DOES undermine something.. it undermines paladin levels. They need something good which is NOT tied to investing tons of AP in a single tree. Thats why the original ideas were tied to class level. This needs to remain tied to the spell so every level-invested paladin can access it, and it needs to remain stacking so theres a reason to do this combined with other things. Without that, its simply the most expensive, and thus least appealing, choice, addressing none of the goals of the change in the first place.

We considered limiting it to the character's holy weapon type, but that seemed too limiting.

And I agree wholeheartedly. While thematic, there is simply not enough itemization across the boards to adequately support such a limited scope of application. Just making it a weapon buff, as described in the OP, is the way to go.

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Originally when it changed from +dmg to +str, the concern was two fold. First, it offered less dps (in many cases at the time, nowadays maybe not as theres more stat available). This is because to get +8 dmg to your mainhand (what it was originally) would take a cha of 42, at the time essentially impossible. And for twf paladins, it was (and still is) basically impossible to get the 8 dmg back to your offhand (would take what, 74? cha... cant say thats common if even possible).

Going back to +dmg now has a different set of concerns. One, as mentioned, the +tactics mod. Obviously an issue, as such bonuses are routinely needed (either by perception in some cases, or in reality because the dcs needed for ee in some areas are insane). If this was removed, I *strongly* suggest something else be added in its place. Perhaps to Kensei, where it probably should have been to start, but some place paladins and/or warpriests could access it too would not be amiss (so no one loses out vs now). Two, is that doing so frees it up from being a "str build" ability... not a bad thing. It would allow for more types of paladins to use the ability. Including some crazy ideas like an elf paladin AA with holy weapon bow and divine might, focusing on dex and cha... youd never see that now but it starts to sound workable (maybe not top level, but you could play that) post changes.

Overall, if its changed, AND some support is added to cover the removed functions, it could be good. Would have to see the proposed versions. Returning it to flat +dmg benefits twf again, and non-str based characters. It could hurt 2hd, given that they get 1.5x str, but it also helps curb runaway swf so bit of a wash on those. I dont want to say Im asking for such a change... as frankly I become weary of things changing and then changing back later (I feel like why not listen to this the first time when all these points were made, and they were, sheesh), but if it happens I think the game could roll with it.

EDIT: Just wanted to add... making it half cha bonus to damage, didnt catch that. So basically people just lose str points, and twf gains offhand damage. For everyone else, its worse. That seriously hurts my commentary above where I had assumed you were going to half charisma, not half charisma bonus (so itd be 5 higher). Basically let me adjust me feedback (but leaving the above there, in case a different version is considered).

In revision, at this point, I say dont bother. Its adding work to your already too-full workload, and all its going to do is wind up virtually exactly where it is now except some people will get upset that their builds are nerfed. Why add more work for you, and more work for us. Just dont bother, spend the time somewhere with better returns.

TLDR versions... dont change holy weapon from stacking, dont change divine might, just dont do anything you just mentioned. Bleh.

[Xario]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

So why don't do it as multiple enhancement selector Divine Might (adds full Charisma bonus to damage) / Divine Strength (adds Charisma bonus to strength)

If you will add only half of charisma bonus to damage, you will nerf damage of all THF (1,5 x strength bonus to damage) and SWF (2 x strength bonus to damage) users. And DnD paper rules also using full charisma bonus to damage.

[Delacroix21]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

I hope you keep everything as originally proposed and ignore the (not surprising) slew of "nerf this!" Posts that always seem to come from the same people.


As for holy sword stacking it should, I find it interesting that when some people notice a synergistic ability they think it should be removed. That's the whole allure of ddo for me and many others, finding cool synergies to create unique builds. But I know that's not for everyone and the ones against it are the same who cry out for pure classed cookie cutter builds on par with well planned multis.


As for charisma to strength change I hope it is left the same. Some of us rely on it as it allows us to go full charisma and still have decent hit and damage. If others use this synergy to boost an allready high strength then more power to them.


I also love your original plan of 90 Melee power from epic levels and 60 from destinies. Putting to much of the Melee power in destinies will front load this, and the early epic level quests (even on elite) don't need as much of a boost to be viable, it's the higher level ones that are a bigger issue.


I am honestly very impressed with your approach to this issue, as it is better then what I and others have suggested in the past. I believe the suggestions to "nerf everything else" (mobs, casters, ranged) are well just plain stupid, as it seems logical (at least at this point in the game) to just buff up the one style lagging behind.


Nerfs always make some players leave, and this game can not afford to lose any more players. What's more, if someone was unhappy with their class, nerfs to other classes do nothing to improve their mood, but buffs do. On the same token players using a powerful class get very upset when it is nerfed, but are indifferent to buffs to other weaker classes.



Keep kicking booty Sev! You are on the right track!

[Delacroix21]

Guys I get it, I really do. Many of you want to go way back to the basics of early ddo when these issues did not exist, because YES there was a big power creep since then. But to do such a thing would require almost a total rework of the game and is completely impractical.


We all love this game, but let's think how we can balance things in the most efficient way possible so the Devs can go back to creating new content. The Devs (who I honestly have been very critical of in the past) have gotten this right here.


Let's work with what we have and embrace this!

[BDog77]

TLDR versions... dont change holy weapon from stacking, dont change divine might, just dont do anything you just mentioned. Bleh.

Thanks for saying this.

[Ayseifn]

Boy oh boy, I think that Falchion, Khopesh, or Heavy Pick with Holy Sword active are mighty strong reasons to take 14 levels of Paladin. The spell actually beats out the bonuses given by Swashbuckling on many of the same weapons Swashbuckling affects too. Plus you regain access to the Pally saves bonus and Monk levels that you sacrifice by being a Bard :P. No, this spell is going to have pretty universal appeal if it is a competence bonus with the possible exception of for quarterstaff users and assassins.

I do think going tier 5 in KOTC will only appeal to those looking to make their living doing Adrenalized Exalted Smites in Fury of the Wild, which, don't get me wrong, is going to be strong and incredibly fun, but it is a bit narrow in scope if other things aren't added to the tree.

I have no issue with paladins doing more DPS than someone with a bard icon, in fact I'd prefer it be that way. A 3 bard splash using a rapier, handaxe, kukri or light pick will not necessarily get beat out by HS though, can still go kensei with all of those so only the light pick and maybe handaxe loses out.

Falchion, Khopesh, or Heavy Pick will all be alright, but you can't be centered with them which should keep things close to fighters which is great and where they should be. Also can't take druid levels which is a pretty solid splash nor can you take barbarian which is the next class to get some attention. It's tough to try and guess where the balance should be on paladins when we don't know what the third tree is like nor what barbarians will get next, but the KotC tree has traditionally been the closest thing a paladin has had do a DPS tree and it's underwhelming to me. If paladins are going to share two trees with fighters then the third unique one should be on par with their unique one, kensei. Holy Sword stacking with everything would at least give me an out so I could double dip on crits with assassin, halfling or acrobat/henshin, or even going a different route and spending big in arcane archer* or the like.

If Holy Sword has to be competence though then KotC needs some more work IMO. I'm personally fine with it the way it is for the same reason I'm fine with the melee power change, it's a cheap and somewhat elegant way to get things more balanced and it doesn't seem like Turbine has the people on staff to do something that'd be a LOT more nuanced and fine grained for effectively just balance a patch. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

*Pulverizer works with bows if you have Morphic Arrows last time I tried it.

[BigErkyKid]

On the new spell that enhances crit profile.

14 levels of paladin seem too much too me, since it prevents a lot of multiclassing for a class that is excellent at it.

How about making it a chore in an enhancement tree? It could be selected after investing several APs into a tree, say the new Knight of the Chalice.

It could be say the one at lvl 12. This would already stronly encourage getting many paladin levels (compared to say the assassin or bard or staff build bonuses) but allow for some margin for other classes.

[Terebinthia]

The last time I had a capped pally was three years ago and it was terribad, so any buffs are good. I'll leave commenting on specifics to those who have played them recently.

Overwhelming Critical changes, love them.

If you are looking at spells for quality of life, perhaps adjust divine power to also be 1 min per caster level, so deep divine splashes get the benefit of not having to do the divine favour divine power rotation? also look at whether Resistance and Angelskin can be beefed up by caster level a bit more, they are pretty rubbish at the moment. From what I remember pally stuff needs a lot of short term clicking so having the divine spells be fire and forget makes a lot of sense....

[Kalevor]

How about both, then? half of Cha bonus to damage and tactics? Strength builds don't lose out, and dex and alternate-stat weapon-users get a nice buff.

Like it,very much! its a buff to other kind of atribute builds.

EDIT: on second though this would hurt a lot to THF and SWF builds. I think multiselector type would be the way to go (only STR or DEX)

[Zasral]

Would you consider boosting the duration of Divine Favor as well?

Currently it's durations is close enough to zeal that I usually cast them at the same time.

You might also consider increasing the cap on it. (Currently +3 at level 9)

This would be wonderful. It would allow me to drop extend. Currently with extend, I hate the durations on these buffs. Also you didn't change the capstone, that makes me happy, but you don't say if you will fix it? Over all I really like these changes, most especially merging the undead/demon damage. Thank you!

[SteeleTrueheart]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

I am not sure I like the spell as written due to the lack of holy/metalline, but giving those properties would trespass on epic destiny feats. I also see a lot of people saying this will make X class desire 14 levels of paladin to be awesome. 14 levels is not a splash. What the problem is, it makes those classes that give a competence bonus even MORE attractive to splash into, causing pure paladins to be much less likely. Though the fighter one requires 8 levels of fighter, the ninja spy requires 20 monk levels, so that would make these mutually exclusive. Henshin mystic and staff would be powerful, and knifes for rogues, but these are some of the lowest range/multi weapon types.

I vote to leave it as stacking. Why? Development history shows us paladins are usually the first to get buffed in sweeping changes, but because they are first there is some reservation and people tend to cry out that it may be too much. Devs then think 'Hey! Paladins are fixed enough, off the list of things they go!" Then shortly after everyone else gets buffed too and it is ever so slightly better than paladin (or distinctly better!) because people have gotten used to the 'new thing'. Paladins then are suddenly back to one of the least powerful classes again and there is a long gap before the dev cycle comes back around.

If it isn't competence then the next 6 paladin levels have to compete with an additional +1 crit threat and mult.... Which is very hard to do.... Make it competence.

I am not sure what the answer is. Is it the crit range or the multiplier that is the build problem? I am thinking, what if you gave the bonus but half as good: +1 (stacking) crit multiplier and +1 competence bonus to crit range. Not sure this addresses it properly, but a strictly competence bonus would definitely lessen the "Whoa!" factor. Personally as I said above I would leave it as is.

We considered limiting it to the character's holy weapon type, but that seemed too limiting.

Maybe limit it to melee weapons the way smite does. This will essentially limit it to a few weapons it will work well with (looking at you khopesh!) but allow flavour builds to use it as well. This better work with handwraps or you will have broken my favourite build at the moment.

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

This confuses me considerably. This would be a nerf unless you are a Charisma/dex build. Current DM gives full charisma bonus to your strength score. THAT IS EQUAL TO half charisma bonus to damage for Strength paladins as well as a bonus to; tactics; to hit; and strength checks. On the plus side it would allow paladins to use insight bonus items again. This feels like you are angling to encourage paladins to go charisma route especially with that capstone. But there are too many things that boost strength currently (but not charisma) to make that truly desirable. Just look at Greater Sacred defense in the other paladin tree.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Greetings,


Holy Sword
Evocation (Good spells)
Paladin 4
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Metamagic: Quicken
Range: Touch
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds

Channels holy power to increase the effectiveness of your equipped weapons. Weapons you currently are wielding gain an additional +2 holy bonus to enhancement value. The spell also increases the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of these weapons by 1.


Zeal
Zeal is already quite good, but as a quality of life change we are increasing its duration to match the new Holy Sword spell. It will now last one minute per caster level.

• Divine Sacrifice: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional (5/7/9)d6 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 5 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. Light damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
Sev~

questions for you:

Holy sword just says weapons, this applies to all weapons right? so not unarmed combat? so yes ranged combat? just asking for clarification there

Zeal is currently a 10% boost to doublestrike, is there any chance of making it a +10% doublestrike/doubleshot boost so as to not limit pally to only melee?

Divine Sacrifice seems like its setting it up just like adrenaline, is that what is intended or am i reading into it too much?

And final question, does Divine Sacrifice work with ranged as stated here?

[Bridge_Dweller]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

They won't feel nerfed if you change the DC formula for Stunning blow. SB is broken now as it's near impossible to get a viable DC with divine might.

[bennyson]

questions for you:

Holy sword just says weapons, this applies to all weapons right? so not unarmed combat? so yes ranged combat? just asking for clarification there

Zeal is currently a 10% boost to doublestrike, is there any chance of making it a +10% doublestrike/doubleshot boost so as to not limit pally to only melee?

Divine Sacrifice seems like its setting it up just like adrenaline, is that what is intended or am i reading into it too much?

And final question, does Divine Sacrifice work with ranged as stated here?

If it said "Melee weapons currently equipped" am pretty sure that it implies that only melee weapons and not unarmed or range weapons would gain its effect.

Divine Sacrifice is still technically the same, the only difference is that it's Light damage part will scale by 100 Melee Power.

(Did anyone here actually read any of Sev's other Armor Up threads BEFORE posting your thoughts here? Just wondering.)

[Scrabbler]

They won't feel nerfed if you change the DC formula for Stunning blow. SB is broken now as it's near impossible to get a viable DC with divine might.

The underlying reason Stunning Blow's DC is broken is that stunning / dazing items apply to Stunning Fist. Stunning DC items were invented to make up for how Stunning Blow didn't scale with level, but allowing them to work on a newer feat that inherently scaled with level meant the old one could never keep up.

To fix this, they could try making stunning / dazing items give 2x or 1.5x the DC bonus to Stunning Blow, but only 1x to Stunning Fist, Frozen Fury, and so on. Or simply make the Stunning Blow feat add a DC point every few character levels.

[ddorimble]

Divine Might is a dilly of a pickle.

I don't necessarily want people to be able to choose any other arbitrary stat to buff, because once you can get Cha or Dex or whatever other stat as high as Strength, there will be no reason anymore to be Strength based because those other attributes ALSO come with side benefits (Saves, Skills, Casting Ability).

I also don't want Divine Might to be a straight damage add, because that unfairly favors fast attack speed combat styles.

However, if it becomes too good, there will ONLY ever be Charisma Paladins (probably PDK) and I don't think that's a great direction to go either.

I don't know what the hell to do with that thing.

I wonder if we can make it some universally useful thing, but not just crazy damage add...

"When you perform a Cleave attack while Divine Might is active, something cool happens: Knockdown, More damage, Divine blindness..."

or

"When you perform a Smite attack while Divine Might is active, something cool happens: ..."

or

"When you Vorpal while Divine Might is active..."

...and so on, you get the idea...

Honestly, half Cha to damage is probably the best compromise at the moment, but I'd put Divine Might on the list for deeper reevaluation.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Divine Might is a dilly of a pickle.

I don't necessarily want people to be able to choose any other arbitrary stat to buff, because once you can get Cha or Dex or whatever other stat as high as Strength, there will be no reason anymore to be Strength based because those other attributes ALSO come with side benefits (Saves, Skills, Casting Ability).

I also don't want Divine Might to be a straight damage add, because that unfairly favors fast attack speed combat styles.

However, if it becomes too good, there will ONLY ever be Charisma Paladins (probably PDK) and I don't think that's a great direction to go either.

I don't know what the hell to do with that thing.

I wonder if we can make it some universally useful thing, but not just crazy damage add...

"When you perform a Cleave attack while Divine Might is active, something cool happens: Knockdown, More damage, Divine blindness..."

or

"When you perform a Smite attack while Divine Might is active, something cool happens: ..."

or

"When you Vorpal while Divine Might is active..."

...and so on, you get the idea...

universally good would be something like a burst effect that does 1d6 holy damage per cha mod, so at 40 cha it does 15d6 holy damage to an area. this way weather you are str based, dex based, or int based it doesn't really matter. and if you are cha based... hopefully you have figured out a way to get some damage from somewhere because this isn't going to cut it.

and also 'this cannot proc more than once per second' so that attack style/speed/doublestrike etc don't come into play.

[ddorimble]

universally good would be something like a burst effect that does 1d6 holy damage per cha mod, so at 40 cha it does 15d6 holy damage to an area. this way weather you are str based, dex based, or int based it doesn't really matter. and if you are cha based... hopefully you have figured out a way to get some damage from somewhere because this isn't going to cut it.

and also 'this cannot proc more than once per second' so that attack style/speed/doublestrike etc don't come into play.

Yeah, that's kinda where I was trying to go with that, good suggestions. Pushes hard toward everyone being Cha PDK Paladins, but not sure how to avoid that.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I agree with many sentiments above

Leave Divine might the way it is (reduce its cost to 1 ap per rank though)
Leave Holy Sword the way it is. If it makes a small handful of things viable or alternative but still within a reasonable DPS amount then it is a good change. That is all it does.