Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Nascoe]

If one of your goals is too help with feat issues on paladins, you may want to consider giving paladins access to magical training through enhancements. Rangers and Bards have this option, Paladins are the only class with a sp bar that always has to spend a feat to get magical training. Magical training is very useful in epic content, because that 12 sp you can get back from echos of power gives just enough for a rejuvenation cocoon. Since the tree looks cramped you could easily merge the 2 actions boots (attack and damage) into a multiselector and put Energy of the Zealot in the spot where action boost attack was.

Yes, I like this idea. Paladins get relatively small spellpoint pools as is, so it would help a lot to get those echos to be able to cast a last spell to survive.

[Kalevor]

If one of your goals is too help with feat issues on paladins, you may want to consider giving paladins access to magical training through enhancements. Rangers and Bards have this option, Paladins are the only class with a sp bar that always has to spend a feat to get magical training. Magical training is very useful in epic content, because that 12 sp you can get back from echos of power gives just enough for a rejuvenation cocoon. Since the tree looks cramped you could easily merge the 2 actions boots (attack and damage) into a multiselector and put Energy of the Zealot in the spot where action boost attack was.

good idea. /signed

[bennyson]

Greetings,


• Divine Light: Your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.

Sev~

Interesting

I wonder how this will work when fighting undead when the scaling part kicks in (am guessing heavy damage compared to what we have on live now yes?)

[toapat]

Interesting

I wonder how this will work when fighting undead when the scaling part kicks in (am guessing heavy damage compared to what we have on live now yes?)

it doesnt. Undead hitdice already well outscaled what clerics/paladins could deal with in 3.5 and HD are way inflated in this. by the point where Divine light could be considered a reasonable investment its already incapable of actually hitting.

[HatsuharuZ]

it doesnt. Undead hitdice already well outscaled what clerics/paladins could deal with in 3.5 and HD are way inflated in this. by the point where Divine light could be considered a reasonable investment its already incapable of actually hitting.

That assumes that you need to actually *turn* the undead to deal divine light's damage to the undead. Not sure if that's how it works....

[bennyson]

it doesnt. Undead hitdice already well outscaled what clerics/paladins could deal with in 3.5 and HD are way inflated in this. by the point where Divine light could be considered a reasonable investment its already incapable of actually hitting.

Am not sure if you meant that you must successfully turn the undead for this ability to activate. Divine Light, however, works regardless whether or not you were able to turn the undead, the damage still applies even if you failed to turn them.

This comes from personal experience.

[Scrabbler]

Holy Sword
Channels holy power to increase the effectiveness of your equipped weapons. Weapons you currently are wielding gain an additional +2 holy bonus to enhancement value. The spell also increases the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of these weapons by 1.

Have the devs thought about what the new Holy Sword spell will do to Paladins' weapon type choices?

If you look at old D&D books from the 1970s or 1980s, the first pictures of Paladins show them holding longswords (broadswords?). But in DDO, for a Paladin to carry a Longsword is quite a mistake. And this new Holy Sword will make that weapon be a relatively worse choice than it is already!

Currently a Paladin's non-THF preferences are one of Scimitar, Pick, or Khopesh. (Scimitar being better when Thunderforged procs are involved, which don't scale up according to crit mult).

Current Paladins
Longsword: 17-20 x2 = 4*(2-1) = 4 Critical Power
Scimitar: 15-20 x2 = 6*(2-1) = 6 CP
Pick: 19-20 x4 = 2*(4-1) = 6 CP
Khopesh: 17-20 x3 = 4*(3-1) = 8 CP

New Paladins
Longsword: 15-20 x3 = 6*(3-1) = 12 CP
Scimitar: 13-20 x3 = 8*(3-1) = 16 CP
Pick: 17-20 x5 = 4*(5-1) = 16 CP
Khopesh: 15-20 x4 = 6*(4-1) = 18 CP

(And as you know, a Divine Crusader destiny already preferences the 3x or 4x weapons above Longsword or Scimitar)

[Battlehawke]

Sev,

Sorry just finished a Marathon of working days and trying to get caught up. It looks like Melee Power will be based on Weapon Power, Enhancement's, and ED's. My concerns are with S&B builds and with Feats.

1. Feats- it seems to me that Feats such as TWF, THF or SWF should affect melee power. I know this would nerf some builds that currently don't include them, especially those that are THF and S&B that often opt out of those feats all together. How strongly are you considering Feats to include or not melee powe?

2. S&B- I'm excited about the Upcoming Vanguard PRE, However am now wondering how you are going to include these PRE's in Melee Power. It would be dreadful if you all worked so hard to make S&B better and then suddenly nerf it with lack of Melee Power.

3. While we are discussing it. Any chance of Vanguard hitting Lamania soon?

[Scrabbler]

I know this would nerf some builds that currently don't include them, especially those that are THF and S&B that often opt out of those feats all together. How strongly are you considering Feats to include or not melee powe?

All 6 of the THF and S&B feats include Meleepower. TWF and SWF do not.

[Qhualor]

Have the devs thought about what the new Holy Sword spell will do to Paladins' weapon type choices?

If you look at old D&D books from the 1970s or 1980s, the first pictures of Paladins show them holding longswords (broadswords?). But in DDO, for a Paladin to carry a Longsword is quite a mistake. And this new Holy Sword will make that weapon be a relatively worse choice than it is already!

Currently a Paladin's non-THF preferences are one of Scimitar, Pick, or Khopesh. (Scimitar being better when Thunderforged procs are involved, which don't scale up according to crit mult).

Current Paladins
Longsword: 17-20 x2 = 4*(2-1) = 4 Critical Power
Scimitar: 15-20 x2 = 6*(2-1) = 6 CP
Pick: 19-20 x4 = 2*(4-1) = 6 CP
Khopesh: 17-20 x3 = 4*(3-1) = 8 CP

New Paladins
Longsword: 15-20 x3 = 6*(3-1) = 12 CP
Scimitar: 13-20 x3 = 8*(3-1) = 16 CP
Pick: 17-20 x5 = 4*(5-1) = 16 CP
Khopesh: 15-20 x4 = 6*(4-1) = 18 CP

(And as you know, a Divine Crusader destiny already preferences the 3x or 4x weapons above Longsword or Scimitar)

Only the the number cruncher players that build for max damage are the ones using the bestest weapon. A lot of it has to do with content you run, if you multi class, where and what feats and enhancements you take, race, etc. Picks at one time were considered the best weapon and you didn't see everyone suddenly using them. A lot of people build starting from flavor. Technically you might be behind in damage if you use a less optimal weapon, but if you are able to make it work for your build, your damage won't actually be lacking. That's how I play and never felt that much behind. If anything, I feel on par or ahead of others in my group.

[Violith]

it doesnt. Undead hitdice already well outscaled what clerics/paladins could deal with in 3.5 and HD are way inflated in this. by the point where Divine light could be considered a reasonable investment its already incapable of actually hitting.

actually they did a pass to undead HD to get them more in line. so while some are inflated, with the right build/gear it is possible to turn/destroy undead even in epics.
and, divine light is an AOE light damage, that has nothing to do with the effect/success of turn undead, it merely rides ontop of the ability. The morninglord already have this ability under the name Bane of the Restless: of course there's is better since it also adds to your caster lvl as well as number of HD that is turned, It'd be interesting to see if the two abilities would stack since they are named differently and with one being racial enhancement and the other being a class they should stack.

[Scrabbler]

That's how I play and never felt that much behind. If anything, I feel on par or ahead of others in my group.

You're telling me that you seriously use non-named Longswords? That if you were going to the Thunderforge to craft, you might as well make a Longsword because you don't care about having good damage?

[jakeelala]

why did Sev stop responding?

[Qhualor]

You're telling me that you seriously use non-named Longswords? That if you were going to the Thunderforge to craft, you might as well make a Longsword because you don't care about having good damage?

That's not what I said. I said I build for flavor and so do many other people. I can make whatever weapon I want to use on my characters and still not be that much behind in DPS. If anything, I'm on par or do more in groups.

You know how many times I was told I was "doing it wrong" on my barb because I wanted her to use great swords instead of the preferred great axes or falchions. They stopped telling me I did it wrong when they saw my DPS. Same thing when I played a TWF dwarf paladin using daxes.

[oradafu]

why did Sev stop responding?

Sleep.

Cramped hands.

Carpal tunnels.

Reading player responses in his three threads.

Reflecting on that information.

Hopefully readjusting plans before presenting more information.

[jakeelala]

Sleep.

Cramped hands.

Carpal tunnels.

Reading player responses in his three threads.

Reflecting on that information.

Hopefully readjusting plans before presenting more information.

sure why not.

a statement to that effect might be nice though.

[Rull]

Have the devs thought about what the new Holy Sword spell will do to Paladins' weapon type choices?

If you look at old D&D books from the 1970s or 1980s, the first pictures of Paladins show them holding longswords (broadswords?). But in DDO, for a Paladin to carry a Longsword is quite a mistake. And this new Holy Sword will make that weapon be a relatively worse choice than it is already!

Currently a Paladin's non-THF preferences are one of Scimitar, Pick, or Khopesh. (Scimitar being better when Thunderforged procs are involved, which don't scale up according to crit mult).

Current Paladins
Longsword: 17-20 x2 = 4*(2-1) = 4 Critical Power
Scimitar: 15-20 x2 = 6*(2-1) = 6 CP
Pick: 19-20 x4 = 2*(4-1) = 6 CP
Khopesh: 17-20 x3 = 4*(3-1) = 8 CP

New Paladins
Longsword: 15-20 x3 = 6*(3-1) = 12 CP
Scimitar: 13-20 x3 = 8*(3-1) = 16 CP
Pick: 17-20 x5 = 4*(5-1) = 16 CP
Khopesh: 15-20 x4 = 6*(4-1) = 18 CP

(And as you know, a Divine Crusader destiny already preferences the 3x or 4x weapons above Longsword or Scimitar)

I was thinking about that as well. I would say make holy sword only work on swords
longsword, bastard sword, greatsword. shortsword even.

Paladins are lawful, traditional. Even if some other weapons or tactic is better, they would still use the sword because that is what was always done, knights use swords.
It would be nice to see this reflected.

I know for a dwarf the axe would be 'traditional'. And yes for a drow a rapier or whatever drow use. Maybe include "dwarven axe is added to this list if you are a dwarf" but I would stop at that.

Also makes longswords and bastard swords see some use. Two birds, one stone.

This would reduce it's power, yes. Add more power elsewhere.

[Battlehawke]

Any thoughts of changing Divine Might? I asked because it has been mentioned many times that the current game it benefits Strength Builds more than other melee builds. If Divine Might were changed to increase "to hit" and "damage" instead of modifying Strength, then more options would be presented. This could encourage players to chose other option's. Or at least the comment "It would not be smart to build a " " build when you have Divine Might as an option. This way players could at least consider building Dex, Con (Dwarf) or Cha (PDK) based Paladins.

It would certainly place more value on your DDO purchased PDK Iconics and again give players more options.

[bennyson]

I would say make holy sword only work on swords

No

That would shoe-horn players to only use swords, but what would happen if the devs decided to make the game's most POWERFUL Greataxe of all time? I mean MORE powerful than an ESOS?

I'd rather see Diversity than shoe-horned narrowness.

Also, all they have to do is code the critical threat range and multiplier on the new Holy Sword to be unable to stack with Keen Edge or similar abilities.

[ddorimble]

Any thoughts of changing Divine Might? I asked because it has been mentioned many times that the current game it benefits Strength Builds more than other melee builds. If Divine Might were changed to increase "to hit" and "damage" instead of modifying Strength, then more options would be presented. This could encourage players to chose other option's. Or at least the comment "It would not be smart to build a " " build when you have Divine Might as an option. This way players could at least consider building Dex, Con (Dwarf) or Cha (PDK) based Paladins.

I would just like to make sure the inherent balance that exists from it being Strength based remains. By being Strength based, it benefits the various fighting styles appropriately. TWF gets Full Damage/Half Damage, THF gets 1.5x Damage, Unarmed Monks get Full Damage/Full Damage, SWF gets 2x Full Damage, and so on. By making it purely damage based, it puts us back to the original problem (that they solved by making it add to Strength) where high rate of attack fighting styles benefit disproportionately more. Of course, it adds to tactics this way too.

Alternately, make it a multi-selector with some other useful option(s) to choose from. Strength builds will most likely take the option that matches how it works today, others can choose one of the other options.