Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Bingobong]

Notice that this is the same developer group who last month thought it was a good idea to give Bards +1 crit mult +2 crit range, at level 3.

I thought that was also over the top, but at least it was for a select few weapons and arguably not "favored" weapon types except the rapier, which only gets +1 critical multiplier. Plus there were restrictions on its use (single weapon with an orb, runearm, or buckler on the off hand).

In the case of the Paly, there is no restrictions at all and you get +1 threat range PLUS +1 critical multiplier on any weapon as far as I can tell. For your offhand you can use a heavy or tower shield or another weapon (TWF). Or you can use a 2-hander (THF). Basically any non-bard melee would gravitate towards this.

[Seikojin]

Looks great, the only suggestion I have is swap divine might and divine lights tiers around, so might is t1 and light is t2. This will align it more towards warpriest which gets might at 1.

[bloodnose13]

Holy Sword
Evocation (Good spells)
Paladin 4
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Metamagic: Quicken
Range: Touch
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds

Channels holy power to increase the effectiveness of your equipped weapons. Weapons you currently are wielding gain an additional +2 holy bonus to enhancement value. The spell also increases the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of these weapons by 1.

all good i just would like to see some source of good dr bypass added to it, so it makes held weapon good as old capstone did, also not sure if its good to give it all at once at lvl 14, maybe this spell should scale up from lvl 14, giveing aditional bonuses for each level of paladin past lvl 14 to 20, and then "epicify" itself when passing into epic levels, otherwise it will again be best gift to splashers.

Zeal
Zeal is already quite good, but as a quality of life change we are increasing its duration to match the new Holy Sword spell. It will now last one minute per caster level.

maybe zeal could be upgraded to have chance on hit/crit to return smite charges? what about divine favor and angel skin spells? all of those spells could use some love as well as good way to scale them up into epic levels.

[LuKaSu]

New possible builds

Reignbeau 1.5
14 Paladin / 4 Favored Soul / 2 Monk
Drow Sacred Defender, Unyielding Sentinel

Ameliorating Strikes for 500 hp heals
150 PRR
50 Spell Resist
1800 Hit Points
2000 DPS

<3

I was thinking the same, but cleric. Divine vitality, endless turning, +4 weapon enhancement, ameliorating strike. :-)

[Bingobong]

A fighter that specializes in one weapon has more than one enhancement that increases their damage. They also have lots of feats to easily take the weapon fighting line, unlike a paladin that has a lot more feats to consider and they have less feats than a fighter.

Sure, fighter gets lots of feats, but you only need 14 Paly levels for the +1 threat range and +1 crit multiplier.

So 14-Paly / 6-fighter gets you 4 extra feats from fighter.
If you have monk, then 14-Paly/4-fighter/2-monk gets you 5 extra feats (2 from monk, 3 from fighter) + evasion.

Basically almost any non-bard melee would benefit more by going 14-Paly/6-something.

[bennyson]

Why does Holy Retribution still have that "less than 1,000 HP" requirement?

When in a group or by yourself, all enemies will have WAY more HP than 1,000 and if your in a group, there is no time to use this ability because that enemy will die off quickly if it reaches 1,000 HP. Specially when you have the hard hitting classes around such as Monks or Barbarians.

In all manners of seriousness, the ability's saving throw mechanic already balanced this since the day you guys created Holy Retribution, letting that 1,000 HP requirement linger is an unnecessary pain in the neck when monsters have to make a saving throw against 10 +class level +stat mod.

[B0ltdrag0n]

What am I giving up exactly?
Divine might check.
Divine grace, check.
2 free cleaves, check.
Empower heal, check.
Power attack, icrit, 3*combat feats, check.

Granted, theres no hasteboost.. but thats easily fixed.

Given the option to get a unique & stacking crit profile 14 paladin levels are going to become the new flavor of the month, entirely because of holy sword.

Especially true for dagger, staff and throwing builds.

No you give up A fair amount of monk powers or other useful abilities that those classes have used int the past for a potential benefit that I am unconvince will actually be a trade off worth doing.

Also 2 free cleaves? Um no. This will not make for a better throwing build. Daggers and staves? sure. But that's about it.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Well, it doesnt stack with bard or barbarian crit bonuses because of alignment.

It doesn't stack with kensai since you would need 8 fighter and 14 paladin. And skipping all thos efighter levels would cost you a lot of feats, so making a melee toon with all the needed melee feats plus manyshot, isn't going to happen. You could do one or the other, fighter (or a fighter with a few things splashed) can do both.

Going 6 ranger 14 paladin would give up evasion and give up 10k stars from not taking monk.

Going 14 paladin 6 monk would give up enough unarmed dice that you would have to make some kind of weapon using monk, and then it doesn't stack with the crit bonuses from ninja spy because those would require 20 monk.

Really the only ones these stack with would be assassin knife training and acrobat/henshin staff training. I can't see someone making an assassin and giving up assassinate.

So that leaves henshin/acrobat, then you have a choice, do you give up 15% melee alacrity or shadow fade or give up holy sword at which point you might as well give up paladin.

This guy gets it.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Im loving how everyone is worried about Paladins a class with literally nothing going for it past level 4 will somehow be too good because of a stacking +1 multiplier. But making Overwhelming Critical a mandatory level 21 feat that anyone can take is ok.

Hell if you want this to not stack with seomthing. Have it NOT stack with overwhelming Critical, but otherwise stack with the rest just fine.

[toapat]

Im loving how everyone is worried about Paladins a class with literally nothing going for it past level 4 will somehow be too good because of a stacking +1 multiplier. But making Overwhelming Critical a mandatory level 21 feat that anyone can take is ok.

Hell if you want this to not stack with seomthing. Have it NOT stack with overwhelming Critical, but otherwise stack with the rest just fine.

hey, after this update, assuming everything goes through, i would still have to figure out what 2 of my featslots are doing after dumping 2 Fighter, Cleave, Great Cleave, toughness, and OTWF. having easy Overwhelming Critical is just a convenience then

[Monkey_Archer]

Honestly, this whole argument over holy sword is trivial. If it does stack for staff/knife builds its not going to be overpowered. If it doesn't stack its not going to be underpowered either. Its a completely irrelevant drop in the dps bucket compared to the stacking +150% damage all melee are getting for free. The only thing that really matters is that it stacks with divine crusader, because having paladin spells not stack with the most paladin like destiny would be stupid.

[bennyson]

Actually we already discussed the Overwhelming Critical issue with the Player's Council. We are removing both the Strength requirement and the Great Cleave requirement from that feat.

Sev~

HOLY MOLY!

No more STR requirement or cleaves? This is a MASSIVE bonus to feat-starved classes *cough* Paladin *cough* and to every other feat-starved classes as well.

I can see the future now, High End Cha based Pallies with OC.

This is so much to take in...

[B0ltdrag0n]

You want to make Knight of the Chalice a good tree?

Take Warpriest. Remove the weapon line going up and the T5 Divine Power ability. Replace with the proposed smite enhancements and divine sacrifice.
Replace the +2 AC with the Light damage.

There ya go, a far superior tree has emerged.

[LuKaSu]

You want to make Knight of the Chalice a good tree?

Take Warpriest. Remove the weapon line going up and the T5 Divine Power ability. Replace with the proposed smite enhancements and divine sacrifice.
Replace the +2 AC with the Light damage.

There ya go, a far superior tree has emerged.

That would be pretty sweet

[jakeelala]

No you give up A fair amount of monk powers or other useful abilities that those classes have used int the past for a potential benefit that I am unconvince will actually be a trade off worth doing.

Also 2 free cleaves? Um no. This will not make for a better throwing build. Daggers and staves? sure. But that's about it.

Just because you clearly dont understand how to min/max builds doesn't mean we are not right.

You give up nothing important from monk because all stances can be taken as feats.

This 14/6 will give you the most powerful split for melee's that aren't taking Bard levels.

+1 Crit from Pally
+1 Crit from Monk with Qstaves

You can't get that any other way it makes you the most powerful for doing damage.

The same is true if you want to use Bows, or if you want to use Shuriken. it would give you the best possible crit threat and multi in Halfling because of stacking. And Rogue using Knives.

I'm not making this up. I don't care if Pallys are strong.

But they should not be a platform that is required for all other builds to be their strongest. That's a simple concept you need to understand.

Easy solution: Tier 5 SLA for Holy Sword, or make it Competence so it does not stack.

Simple as that. Paladins stay powerful, other builds are powerful, no one is the most powerful, which maintains diversity and choices.

Mark my words if Holy Sword goes live as is. Paladins dont need a spell that makes them the most attractive multiclass base for builds. What they need is a commensurate crit threat/multi enhancement that is equivilent to rogues, monks, bards, and fighters. that would be one that does not stack with other classes/enhancements, but makes them in the same league. Then, they need a tree that supports them in other ways that is strong.

then in epics they create Melee Power which brings all melee up a bit.

Then you have an even, balanced system where build diversity can still exist. Hopefully it will balance the wildly OP state of Swashbuckling/SWF bards.

[jakeelala]

Honestly, this whole argument over holy sword is trivial. If it does stack for staff/knife builds its not going to be overpowered. If it doesn't stack its not going to be underpowered either. Its a completely irrelevant drop in the dps bucket compared to the stacking +150% damage all melee are getting for free. The only thing that really matters is that it stacks with divine crusader, because having paladin spells not stack with the most paladin like destiny would be stupid.

No. So many no.

150% Melee power will just increase the amount by which stacking crit threat/multi enhancements are powerful. They don't negate them, they MAGNIFY them.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Just because you clearly dont understand how to min/max builds doesn't mean we are not right.

You give up nothing important from monk because all stances can be taken as feats.

You are wrong you do give up things. You can just gloss over them all you want since it doesn't fit your narrative, but you are incorrect in your assessment.

This 14/6 will give you the most powerful split for melee's that aren't taking Bard levels.

+1 Crit from Pally
+1 Crit from Monk with Qstaves

You can't get that any other way it makes you the most powerful for doing damage.

The same is true if you want to use Bows, or if you want to use Shuriken. it would give you the best possible crit threat and multi in Halfling because of stacking. And Rogue using Knives.

So staff builds... ok Im still not convinced it is the best split as the feats that are given up and/or the versatility for singular focus trade off, but Yes knives and staves will be better. Due to the Damoclesian nerf that LD is getting to ranged damage...I dont think thats much of an issue right now.

OC becoming generic is far more game imbalancing than 8 ****** levels in a ****** class for a spell that can be dispelled fairly easily.

I'm not making this up. I don't care if Pallys are strong.

But they should not be a platform that is required for all other builds to be their strongest. That's a simple concept you need to understand.

Easy solution: Tier 5 SLA for Holy Sword, or make it Competence so it does not stack.

Doesn't need to be competence then, but if you made it a Tier 5 that would be fine as well in my opinion...of course the rest of the tree is still pretty awful.

Simple as that. Paladins stay powerful, other builds are powerful, no one is the most powerful, which maintains diversity and choices.

Mark my words if Holy Sword goes live as is. Paladins dont need a spell that makes them the most attractive multiclass base for builds. What they need is a commensurate crit threat/multi enhancement that is equivilent to rogues, monks, bards, and fighters. that would be one that does not stack with other classes/enhancements, but makes them in the same league. Then, they need a tree that supports them in other ways that is strong.

then in epics they create Melee Power which brings all melee up a bit.

Unfortunately the design decisions are not seeming to go along this path. Something I would also prefer.

Then you have an even, balanced system where build diversity can still exist. Hopefully it will balance the wildly OP state of Swashbuckling/SWF bards.

I also find this last sentence to hold a premise I find untrue, but I agree with the intent behind the words. Diversity.

[B0ltdrag0n]

No. So many no.

150% Melee power will just increase the amount by which stacking crit threat/multi enhancements are powerful. They don't negate them, they MAGNIFY them.

Again for two mediocre to ok builds to become good to mediocre in their increase. Everything else is not necessarily better off.

[Monkey_Archer]

No. So many no.

150% Melee power will just increase the amount by which stacking crit threat/multi enhancements are powerful. They don't negate them, they MAGNIFY them.

Yes it will get magnified. My point is that its irrelevant. The top dps builds are going to be doing nearly twice as much damage as a fully stacked blitzer does on live. Does it really matter whether stick builds kill EE mobs in 0.9 seconds vs 1 second?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Just because you clearly dont understand how to min/max builds doesn't mean we are not right.

You give up nothing important from monk because all stances can be taken as feats.

This 14/6 will give you the most powerful split for melee's that aren't taking Bard levels.

+1 Crit from Pally
+1 Crit from Monk with Qstaves

You can't get that any other way it makes you the most powerful for doing damage.

The same is true if you want to use Bows, or if you want to use Shuriken. it would give you the best possible crit threat and multi in Halfling because of stacking. And Rogue using Knives.

I'm not making this up. I don't care if Pallys are strong.

But they should not be a platform that is required for all other builds to be their strongest. That's a simple concept you need to understand.

Easy solution: Tier 5 SLA for Holy Sword, or make it Competence so it does not stack.

Simple as that. Paladins stay powerful, other builds are powerful, no one is the most powerful, which maintains diversity and choices.

Mark my words if Holy Sword goes live as is. Paladins dont need a spell that makes them the most attractive multiclass base for builds. What they need is a commensurate crit threat/multi enhancement that is equivilent to rogues, monks, bards, and fighters. that would be one that does not stack with other classes/enhancements, but makes them in the same league. Then, they need a tree that supports them in other ways that is strong.

then in epics they create Melee Power which brings all melee up a bit.

Then you have an even, balanced system where build diversity can still exist. Hopefully it will balance the wildly OP state of Swashbuckling/SWF bards.

There's more to it than just crits.
A staff build with *4 crits is going to be better than say a swf centered kensai with a bastardsword (double str mod to damage and +30% alacrity)? or a wolf form druid ranger monk with 100% off hands 85% melee alacrity and ~50 doublestrike?

I'm not convinced.


for bow builds feats are going to be super tight without the bonus feats from ranger, no access to dws tree and you have to be elf or helf. the 12 monk 6 ranger 2 pall blade forged build still looks like a bigger easy button than 14 pally 6 monk