Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[EllisDee37]

T5 especially needs some work: not that I assume you havent looked at other T5s, but this one just doesnt hold up well, and worse isnt too appealing in its own right either. Where as someone might read air sorc and think "wow, lightning bolt and wind dance" or assassin and think "wow, assassinate and knife specialization" or arcane archer and think "wow, slayer arrow and runebow and moonbow" ... no one is going to read kotc and think "wow, a great cleave clone, a randomly triggered 3s stun vs one mob type, and a vorpal that allows a save". Its not that the tree (and paladin class, by extension) arent better. Its just still not there yet.

When you put it like that, there's no denying it.

Rework Holy Retribution to not cost turn undead at all, but instead give it a 15/12/10 second cooldown. And make it something simple, like a +?[W] bonus and some light damage. No save. That would at least be something.

Change the censure line to work on all evil mobs at tier 5. (The tier 4 can stay the same.)

[B0ltdrag0n]

If they keep the same relative benefit, the level 5 core will be a +25% melee power that degrades 1% every 3 seconds. Weaksauce compared to blitz.

1.) 50% that degrades
2.)They said nothing about changing the core from DC. You are assuming much...and you also by your own posts earlier do not like the tree...Despite how good it is.
3.) it isn't melee power so there is no reason to think it will stack with it instead of working seperately like fury.
4.) we dont know how blitz works yet.

So alright.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Well, +150%, for 250% total. 300% total with Zeal stacks, and probably up to 100% doublestrike...
I think we can break 10'000 dps! Better buff monchers before they start complaining.

I think we both agree that THAT change will be boss regardless of any paladin changes

[Delacroix21]

It is our current intention that Holy Weapon stacks with everything. Zeal will work as it does on live, except for the increased duration.

Sev~

Sev, will holy weapon work with unarmed? Can divine crusader crit range be fixed to work with unarmed?


The amount of stuff in this game that doesnt work with unarmed is staggering.

[EllisDee37]

1.) 50% that degrades
2.)They said nothing about changing the core from DC. You are assuming much...and you also by your own posts earlier do not like the tree...Despite how good it is.
3.) it isn't melee power so there is no reason to think it will stack with it instead of working seperately like fury.
4.) we dont know how blitz works yet.

So alright.

Zeal is clearly changing to a melee power bonus, since all melee bonuses are being changed to melee power bonuses. Right now zeal is (counting doublestrike) roughly equivalent to +100 compared to +250 from blitz. I said if they keep the relative strength vs blitz they'll probably lower it to 25 melee power. We know blitz will give 100 melee power.

[Infiltraitor]

New possible builds

Reignbeau 1.5
14 Paladin / 4 Favored Soul / 2 Monk
Drow Sacred Defender, Unyielding Sentinel

Ameliorating Strikes for 500 hp heals
150 PRR
50 Spell Resist
1800 Hit Points
2000 DPS

<3

[B0ltdrag0n]

Zeal is clearly changing to a melee power bonus, since all melee bonuses are being changed to melee power bonuses. Right now zeal is (counting doublestrike) roughly equivalent to +100 compared to +250 from blitz. I said if they keep the relative strength vs blitz they'll probably lower it to 25 melee power. We know blitz will give 100 melee power.

You are claiming things not said. Maybe you are right....maybe you are not. Your math is bad though

+100 +150 base compared to 100+150 base (blitzers) that seems the same so far.

There is not statement or even suggestion they will keep relative strength to blitz. Are you suggesting Fury will add +400 additional melee power for a hit? I dont think they are changing it either.

If you want to ASK the dev if that is happening that is one thing. However, dont claim you have knowledge of intent, or of fact without possessing it.

[EllisDee37]

+100 +150 base compared to 100+150 base (blitzers) that seems the same so far.

This assumption is wholly unsupported, and not at all what I said. Here's what I said...

Currently on live, blitz gives +250, while zeal gives (roughly) +100 (+50/+50)*
With the new change, blitz is being changed to +100. If they keep a similar ratio, zeal will probably be around +50 (+25/+25)

Are you suggesting Fury will add +400 additional melee power for a hit? I dont think they are changing it either.

No, it appears you are suggesting it when you say you don't think they are changing it. To that I could say to you "If you want to ASK the dev if that is happening that is one thing. However, dont claim you have knowledge of intent, or of fact without possessing it."

It's clear as day to me that both zeal and adrenaline will be changed to (some unknown values of) melee power.


*Only for 3 seconds. It goes down by 2 every 3 seconds for 150 seconds until it gets to 0, and then you have to wait at +0 for 90 seconds before starting it again.

[bbqzor]

Currently on live, blitz gives +250, while zeal gives (roughly) +100 (+50/+50)*
With the new change, blitz is being changed to +100. If they keep a similar ratio, zeal will probably be around +50 (+25/+25)

Not exactly. Some of the bonus is being shifted to the base tree. With blitz active, you will still get a total of +250, its just sourced a bit differently (all from within the dreadnought tree cores, so have to be in the tree). Theres no proportional changes being done across the board, damage boost (for example) is staying at +30. Whether or not Zeal will get changed in light of the fact the DC tree itself offers some new passive bonuses, thats a question you may wish to get answered. I suspect, with the stated intention of bringing other trees up towards blitz, it wont, but thats just me. Either way, the "dev diary 2" thread is the destiny one, may find the answers there. Probably worth checking on other boosts, like fury, as well, if you do... as that obviously has bearing as well. I had assumed it was all just changing over at 1:1, except for blitz which had its own specifics... but maybe thats wrong.

[B0ltdrag0n]

This assumption is wholly unsupported, and not at all what I said. Here's what I said...

Currently on live, blitz gives +250, while zeal gives (roughly) +100 (+50/+50)*
With the new change, blitz is being changed to +100. If they keep a similar ratio, zeal will probably be around +50 (+25/+25)

I read what you said. However you are still claiming something that was not said as a fact.

No, it appears you are suggesting it when you say you don't think they are changing it. To that I could say to you "If you want to ASK the dev if that is happening that is one thing. However, dont claim you have knowledge of intent, or of fact without possessing it."

It's clear as day to me that both zeal and adrenaline will be changed to (some unknown values of) melee power.

It is clear to me that you are hoping that they will be changed. This does not make it reality however much you want it though. Perhaps asking the developer? That might give you an answer.

*Only for 3 seconds. It goes down by 2 every 3 seconds for 150 seconds until it gets to 0, and then you have to wait at +0 for 90 seconds before starting it again.

I can do the math on it. You are still incorrect in how good the destiny is though.

I specifically stated in my posts that you could be right, however Im not claiming I am. I am saying that your assertions are unfounded. There is quite a big difference between these two things.

[Alternative]

So warchanter got a cleave that doesnt cancel out the regular cleave, and on top of it freezes all enemies it hits (evil, not evil, all creatures freeze) and paladins got this? No one sane will got for those tier 5 enhancements I can promise that, I'd sooner splash 5 levels of another class and get tier 5s from there.

Censure demons/outsiders, where are those outsiders at end game?

More heal amp at tier 5 on a class that already has tons.

Neg level immunity on a class that can cast deathward, that and everyone already carries DW clickies/pots.

And that terrible vorpal effect with 1000k hp limit or non crittable 100 damage, but only against evil creatures.

Sorry but that's just bad, the duration change to zeal is quite nice but if divine favor stays the same then it won't improve my quality of life as you intend to.

[Blackheartox]

So, i can build a 15 palie 3 ranger 2 monk centerd full saves evasion max dps longsword or shortsword user who will have supreme dps no issue to get oc crit and so many selfheals that its sick, coupled with prr skyhigh and dodge..
IS this really what i want to do?
Yes, this is what i want to do...
Cool change, very welcomed

[EllisDee37]

I specifically stated in my posts that you could be right, however Im not claiming I am. I am saying that your assertions are unfounded. There is quite a big difference between these two things.

I am saying that they are the reasonable and obvious conclusions to draw.

Consider how the spellpower change worked. You still have any +50% damage clickies, or were all clickies changed to a bonus to spell power?

There is clear precedent supporting my assertions.

[bbqzor]

the duration change to zeal is quite nice but if divine favor stays the same then it won't improve my quality of life as you intend to.

Yea, I thought about this as well and almost commented (same with Divine Might). But those would help clr/fvs too and the devs are (rightly or wrongly) trying to focus on Paladin so I held back. But now that the comments here, Ill second this. Id also like to point out that the Paladin Past Life (active feat) grants... Divine Favor. So like, obviously *someone* felt it was representative of paladins.

I think trying to improve QoL with the duration of one buff which, on its own, doesnt affect the need to actually maintain the "combat buff lineup" of everything else is, at best, very minor. Its why I had hoped to see something like 10 melee power added. You know, the same kind and scope of thinking which added 10 melee power as a short buff after smiting something.

Id rather see that 10 get moved to Zeal, the duration left alone if necessary (wont turn down a longer one but dont need a longer one per se), and a new enhancement get added in its place. One which allows you to use a smite to hit anything for +3W or something. Or one which gives you a 10s window making the next smite hit 2x as hard, so theres an incentive to really spam smites (not like recursively x2, just if you use the next one within a window, its double, and if you keep going they stay double).

Something like that, either making smite more consistent across content, or more consistent in doing great damage (instead of only when you crit). And then shift the "paladins need 10 melee power" concept back onto Zeal where it belongs. Because making one buff out of many last slightly longer doesnt address the QoL concern its aimed at, and just making them ALL last longer is kinda like just deleting extend by proxy for no reason.

Just some further thoughts there. Same net place, better packaging of abilities, with an addition to paladin consistency. All desirable things which actually affect QoL, more than just one less buff to recast.

Edit: This is also appealing to me, because its something ALL paladins can use then. Not just kotc ones. Its going to keep the spell useable for all builds, and adds an incentive to go more than 14 paladin (up to 15, cutting off the "lv 6 splash" commonly seen around) in order to get both this and holy sword.

That adds build diversity as well, with people choosing between both paladin buff spells, or another class's lv6 cores and such.

Overall it just seems win-win to me, rather than one meaningless duration change and relegating the 10 melee power the class kinda needs to a single enhancement path. My 2 cents.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I am saying that they are the reasonable and obvious conclusions to draw.

Consider how the spellpower change worked. You still have any +50% damage clickies, or were all clickies changed to a bonus to spell power?

There is clear precedent supporting my assertions.

No. Those were specifically addressed both on live and on ML when asked. I remember. I was there for both. In fact they were changed because they wanted to get away from % boosts, that stacked like that. They were not just changed on a whim because someone thought they knew what a developer was thinking without asking.

[EllisDee37]

Yea, I thought about this as well and almost commented (same with Divine Might). But those would help clr/fvs too and the devs are (rightly or wrongly) trying to focus on Paladin so I held back. But now that the comments here, Ill second this. Id also like to point out that the Paladin Past Life (active feat) grants... Divine Favor. So like, obviously *someone* felt it was representative of paladins.

I think trying to improve QoL with the duration of one buff which, on its own, doesnt affect the need to actually maintain the "combat buff lineup" of everything else is, at best, very minor. Its why I had hoped to see something like 10 melee power added. You know, the same kind and scope of thinking which added 10 melee power as a short buff after smiting something.

Id rather see that 10 get moved to Zeal, the duration left alone if necessary (wont turn down a longer one but dont need a longer one per se), and a new enhancement get added in its place. One which allows you to use a smite to hit anything for +3W or something. Or one which gives you a 10s window making the next smite hit 2x as hard, so theres an incentive to really spam smites (not like recursively x2, just if you use the next one within a window, its double, and if you keep going they stay double).

Something like that, either making smite more consistent across content, or more consistent in doing great damage (instead of only when you crit). And then shift the "paladins need 10 melee power" concept back onto Zeal where it belongs. Because making one buff out of many last slightly longer doesnt address the QoL concern its aimed at, and just making them ALL last longer is kinda like just deleting extend by proxy for no reason.

I'd go the other way. Keep zeal and smites as proposed, and change divine favor to:

Divine Favor: +1 melee power per caster level, 1 minute per caster level

Thanks to the attack formula we don't much care about to-hit bonuses anyway.

[EllisDee37]

No. Those were specifically addressed both on live and on ML when asked. I remember. I was there for both. In fact they were changed because they wanted to get away from % boosts, that stacked like that. They were not just changed on a whim because someone thought they knew what a developer was thinking without asking.

I don't see any meaningful content from your replies to me other than to argue solely for the sake of arguing.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I have provided much feedback in this thread without making assumptions as to what a developer intends, while asking questions when I do not understand the intent. That is why you feel like my replies to you are not helpful, I imagine.

[HatsuharuZ]

We didn't feel strongly that it needed changing.

Umm.... Divine Retribution is a vorpal ability that requires a DC to activate, and it only activates 100% of the time if you spend a whopping 6 AP. I feel that the cost is greater than the reward. MUCH greater. Sorry if my last post on the subject was poorly worded....

[B0ltdrag0n]

Again the Cores of this pre just don't mesh well

Bonuses to Aura of Courage? bad
handful of d6's that kinda scale with meleepower? while losing the other d6's of damage the class had.
i.e. you traded the things you were gonna add to the base class to this tree and REMOVED THINGS to add it...k
Half a tree of bad abilities.
+5 to hit in the cores?
Capstone that is uncompetitive.