Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[FlaviusMaximus]

While I really like the unique situation in which Paladins, as a melee class, have a spell that is going to encourage a lot of people to take a large number of levels of Paladin rather than a core ability, I wonder if having a spell this strong doesn't create a problem when it comes to adding power to the KOTC tree.

In other words, Holy Sword, as it is now written, provides a buff that, from a DPS perspective, outshines (or in some rare cases ties but only for two specific weapons) all other tier 5 abilities. It's so strong that I think making the KOTC tree appetizing for more than those who just want to use Adrenalized Exalted Smites by adding decent general DPS abilities would throw DPS Paladins so far in the other direction (underpowered to overpowered) that it would be counterproductive if the objective is to balance the classes. If Holy Sword is released as strong as it is, I think it's hard to add much power to KOTC because of balance issues.

Perhaps the spell should be broken into two parts, as I believe some have suggested, with half of it being moved to tier 5 of the KOTC tree. If the +1 multiplier part of the spell is moved there, Holy Sword, assuming that the +1 crit expander amounts to a +2 after Improved Critical like all of them do with the exception of in the Ravager tree, will still be an amazing spell - as powerful as the T5 Ravager and Fighter abilities (classes that should out DPS Paladin). The +1 multiplier on T5 of KOTC immediately makes the tree great and going T5 fully becomes worth it for anyone intending to DPS, not just those wanting to lock themselves into Fury Smites, which again, are going to be amazing, but the tree should be appealing for more than just that.

Players are always going to want more. The trick when dealing with player feedback is to separate objectivity from biases to save oneself to being locked in a constant cycle of balancing. There have been some requests and suggestions for more Paladin power in this thread that have frankly been head-scratchers.

It doesn't matter whether the feedback is coming from a small council, lamannia testers, or the general forums, there are players in each of these settings that will ask for as much as they can possibly get. There's often very little objectivity when one is looking at an opportunity to buff their favorite class or if they spy a potential build option that they think will dominate, and players will ask for power that goes way beyond anything remotely reasonable to make these things happen. A hundred heads are indeed better than one, but player feedback is a double edged sword and separating fact from fiction is a daunting, but necessary task.

When it comes to adding power to classes, erring on the side of caution means not having to be stuck in an endless cycle of buffing, class by class, which ends up being the only option because the community generally doesn't tolerate nerfs. If too little is done, a little more can be added. However, if too much is added in the first place, it generally stays out there and everything else eventually gets adjusted up, which seems like a lot of work, although I could see how shifting the class power balance every three months could keep some players playing the game as they continually pursue the latest power-gamer option. By the way, breaking the Holy Sword spell into two parts wouldn't be "erring on the side of caution" or "doing too little". I don't want to give that impression. There's plenty of power in Paladin even if the parts of the spell are moved to different locations. In fact, there's probably too much power being added in total even if this change occurs, but at least it prevents the need to add any more power to the KOTC tree.

[toapat]

how many Paladins use SB?

assuming column 4 goes in unchanged? probably a third, depending on the players choice of Emp heal, extend, or Stunning blow.

[oradafu]

well, I found the stun to be pretty worthwhile. it procs a lot more than you might realize. I wouldn't mind seeing it change to something that could make it proc a bit more though. however, you can compare 9 AP or a precious feat slot for something that could be difficult for a Paladin to boost. how many Paladins use SB?

The current paladin stun is very borderline worthwhile. Chaotic Evil outsiders is very limited in heroics: flensers/renders, thaarak hounds and Rakshasas. Evil Outsider does open it up to more mobs such as the Devils and Quori that appear in the second half of the heroics. However, once you get into Epics, the number of either mobs appearing drops alot. And many of the mobs that fit in those categories aren't trash mobs, but red names (which is also true to a degree in upper heroics), which negates any use of the ability.

So the current 2 AP taking up two nodes in a tree so an ability that randomly goes off and lasting only 3 seconds on rare Epic trash mobs with no other benefit, I can see why people don't like it. It's one of the reasons why the "merger that wasn't a merger" of HOTD and KOTC failed, because the mobs just don't appear like they did between levels 16 to 20 pre-MOTU.

Expanding it to Evil Outsiders and Undead might be worthwhile, but again it would be very borderline at the increase cost of 3 AP. Expanding it to all Evil mobs would be worth the AP, as long as it stayed at 3 AP or less. But it wouldn't be even considering at the obscene cost of 9 AP. That's the cost of improving Exalted Smites or better Stand Defenses, not for a short duration stun to some mobs. Especially when other classes get instant kills or over 250 damage for less.

[toapat]

When it comes to adding power to classes, erring on the side of caution means not having to be stuck in an endless cycle of buffing, class by class, which ends up being the only option because the community generally doesn't tolerate nerfs. If too little is done, a little more can be added. However, if too much is added in the first place, it generally stays out there and everything else eventually gets adjusted up, which seems like a lot of work, although I could see how shifting the class power balance every three months could keep some players playing the game as they continually pursue the latest power-gamer option. By the way, breaking the Holy Sword spell into two parts wouldn't be "erring on the side of caution" or "doing too little". I don't want to give that impression. There's plenty of power in Paladin even if the parts of the spell are moved to different locations. In fact, there's probably too much power being added in total even if this change occurs, but at least it prevents the need to add any more power to the KOTC tree.

i assume you have very minimal experience working with balance if you assume (and you are making significant assumptions at that) reigning power in is less effective or more difficult then buffing. If you have any experience with the dev cycle of League of legends you know that buffing is itself extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, to perform to an acceptable extent. typically an issue of something being underpowered is only successfully dealt with by wholesale removal or redesign of the offender, When something is overpowered they can simply reduce its power explicitly and get it within 2-3 tries and have the issue dealt with in a month. If you are willing to employ the nerf bat, it is much more efficient then doing another rebuild which will be needed from the current state of KotC as of the last posts of Severlin dealing with concerns about KotC

The more offensive part of your presumption is that paladins in DDO have power. Paladins have been the weakest class in the game since update 14, when everyone else got good or useful epic destinies, paladins got a hamstrung tanking tree, and the update to enhancements really didnt help either. This is because alot of what paladins have over their 20 levels are resources. Resources can be used to counterbalance abilities which have power but paladins dont currently have anything that qualifies as powerful. Adrenalin Overload + Exaulted Smite isnt power, thats Adrenalin overload carrying an ability which could be powerful were it not for its limitaions. Holy Retribution would be powerful if it didnt cost the same resource as 3 vastly more powerful buffs that paladins can not afford to spend on it as a result.

[Qhualor]

Expanding it to Evil Outsiders and Undead might be worthwhile, but again it would be very borderline at the increase cost of 3 AP. Expanding it to all Evil mobs would be worth the AP, as long as it stayed at 3 AP or less. But it wouldn't be even considering at the obscene cost of 9 AP. That's the cost of improving Exalted Smites or better Stand Defenses, not for a short duration stun to some mobs. Especially when other classes get instant kills or over 250 damage for less.

I can go along with it expanding to EO and Undead. it fits for Paladin and I think the AP cost would be worth it, unless you don't focus on 1 prestige.

I don't think its fair to compare insta kills to a stun ability. its really not on the same page.

[oradafu]

I can go along with it expanding to EO and Undead. it fits for Paladin and I think the AP cost would be worth it, unless you don't focus on 1 prestige.

I don't think its fair to compare insta kills to a stun ability. its really not on the same page.

Which AP cost? The 3 AP that I mentioned or the stupidly inflated 9 AP that was suggested? If you are saying the 9 AP is good for a situational short-term stun, then compare it to instant kills or +250 damage at tier 5: A Good Death, Execute (tier 4 btw), Assassinate, Coup de Grace, Void Strike, Hunter's Mercy (another tier 4), Slaying Arrows, Touch of Death. Very few of those have anywhere near the 9 AP cost that was suggested and they are much more powerful than a 3 second stun

Even when comparing the new Holy Retribution to those, Holy Retribution falls short. Let's compare:

• Holy Retribution: Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. On Damage: Evil creatures with less than 1,000 HP have a 50%/75%/100% chance to be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) or be destroyed. On a successful save, the affected creature takes 100 holy damage from this attack as well as -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) This ability also recharges one Smite Evil.

• Touch of Death: Dark Ki Melee Attack: You strike a living opponent down with twisted Ki, dealing 500 additional negative energy damage. Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). (Activation Cost: 50 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)

• Void Strike: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 10d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: Your enemy is erased from existence. (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

• Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.

• Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. On sneak attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

• Coup de Grace: Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack: Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly. (12 second cooldown)

Holy Retribution costs a Turn Undead while also having a save, a hard HP cap with a percentage of going off in the first 2 ranks. Touch of Death costs renewable Ki with a save with no HP cap. Void Strike costs renewable Ki with a no save instant kill on Vorpal. Assassinate is on a cooldown at no cost, but has a save and is situational. Execute is on a cooldown without a hard HD cap to provide 500 damage. Coup de Grace is on a cooldown at no cost, but has a save and is situational. Can you really claim that either Holy Retribution or Censure are on the same level as these other Tier 5 (and 4) melee abilities in DPS trees?

[Nayus]

While I really like the unique situation in which Paladins, as a melee class, have a spell that is going to encourage a lot of people to take a large number of levels of Paladin

14 Levels aren't a splash.... 2/3/4 levels are a splash, 5/6 is borderline splash. Anything from 8 on is the build itself. If you go 14/6 Paladin/Fighter then you're a Paladin splashing Fighter and not the inverse.

[Munkenmo]

14 Levels aren't a splash.... 2/3/4 levels are a splash, 5/6 is borderline splash. Anything from 8 on is the build itself. If you go 14/6 Paladin/Fighter then you're a Paladin splashing Fighter and not the inverse.

9/9/2 what's the splash and what's the build?

[oradafu]

9/9/2 what's the splash and what's the build?

Depends on what that build does. If you're talking about a 9/9/2 paladin/fighter/monk, it is most likely a Kensai Monk though, especially if the Grandmaster of Forms are being used. Stick in other classes, it really depends on what the build does. But Monk is really the only class where a small splash overrides the class with majority levels. But that would be more about requiring more Monk levels for the higher versions of Master Forms than anything else.

[Qhualor]

Which AP cost? The 3 AP that I mentioned or the stupidly inflated 9 AP that was suggested? If you are saying the 9 AP is good for a situational short-term stun, then compare it to instant kills or +250 damage at tier 5: A Good Death, Execute (tier 4 btw), Assassinate, Coup de Grace, Void Strike, Hunter's Mercy (another tier 4), Slaying Arrows, Touch of Death. Very few of those have anywhere near the 9 AP cost that was suggested and they are much more powerful than a 3 second stun

I really didn't need a list. stuns are not the same thing as insta kills. no idea why you are trying to make a comparison. if you want to suggest that it has a lower AP cost, than fine. if you want to suggest that it has a chance to insta kill, than fine. if you want to suggest the stun lasts longer, than fine. if you want to suggest it extend to more than chaotic, than that's fine. i don't have a problem with any of that, but if you want to suggest more power to a stun ability, than you have to realize the cost is going to have to be higher.

insta kills like Void Strike, Assassinate and Touch of Death aren't restricted to an alignment. they are straight up insta kills just like FoD. some of them mobs have to make some kind of save and has a high ki cost. if you chose Touch of death, you cant pick anymore Tier 5 enhancements. you can with KOTC.

[toapat]

I really didn't need a list. stuns are not the same thing as insta kills.

1: Stunning is the third most effective form of crowd control, the second are charms and compulsions which have little support in DDO, and the most effective is death. Thus stuns must be compared against kill effects

2: 9 points is the same total cost as Keen Edge in kensai. If i had to choose, i would always pick the +4/+4 with +1 crit range of kensai over a 3 second stun every time.

3: The suggestion is a T5 enhancement that lays down and dies when compared to any other T5 enhancement.

and again, as ive said, the suggestion itself is bad design. No single active or passive should carry into multiple nodes unless extremely good. The only thing in the game i agree about being split up like such is Warpriest's Inflame ability and that is because the nodes differentiate and empower the ability while being correctly priced for their effect.

[Munkenmo]

3: The suggestion is a T5 enhancement that lays down and dies when compared to any other T5 enhancement.

and again, as ive said, the suggestion itself is bad design. No single active or passive should carry into multiple nodes unless extremely good. The only thing in the game i agree about being split up like such is Warpriest's Inflame ability and that is because the nodes differentiate and empower the ability while being correctly priced for their effect.

Being able to make any evil or undead enemy helpless, with no save, during my normal attacking sequence seems pretty **** powerful. More so when I can couple it with cleaves & smites. If the cost is too great, I could easily agree with t3 & t4 being merged into a single node, but imo the t5 part is a worthy t5 ability.

Comparing my proposal to keen edge is bunk. Keen edge has feat requirements which still make it fairly expensive.

I was just trying to clear my head during an assignment and come up with a not overpowered tree, based on Sevs, but more useful. The discussion around my list certainly has lasted much longer than I expected. I'm open to constructive criticism though, and will likely edit it again if you give me an idea.

I am going to merge tier 3 & tier 4, opening up a tier 3 node.

Edit. The theory tree people are discussing.

[FlaviusMaximus]

i assume you have very minimal experience working with balance if you assume (and you are making significant assumptions at that) reigning power in is less effective or more difficult then buffing. If you have any experience with the dev cycle of League of legends you know that buffing is itself extremely difficult,

I'm going by the popularity of buffs vs nerfs in the DDO forums, because, you know, relevance. And efficiency isn't the concern, in my opinion. Keeping the player base happy is the concern, and buffs generally don't dishearten people from playing their beloved, affected characters like nerfs do.

Arguing that nerfs are easier and more desirable for devs to implement may not be the best way to convince one that Paladins need big buffs which can potentially be scaled down later, which is what I think the post ended up being about. It was a bit hard to determine what the argument was, so I could be wrong.

Just to be clear, there are some things that I do suggest scaling back that are already live. Once things are live, they do sometimes need to be nerfed. My argument is that overpowered things shouldn't ever reach live so that a situation in which nerfs need to occur (or alternatively an endless cycle of buffing) can be avoided altogether.

The more offensive part of your presumption is that paladins in DDO have power.

I stated that if the Paladin changes went live as is along with the addition of Holy Sword being split between the spell and the KOTC tree with no additional power added to the KOTC tree than what is in the original proposal, Paladins would have plenty of power. I took the time to not post a pile of unformatted, disorganized text. There should have been no confusion.

So it looks like you are in favor of Paladins receiving more power than has already been suggested. Just to be clear, you feel that KOTC would be an underpowered tree and Paladins would be an underpowered class if the spell Holy Sword provided a +1 to crit range and tier 5 KOTC provided a +1 to crit multiplier, correct?

14 Levels aren't a splash.... 2/3/4 levels are a splash, 5/6 is borderline splash. Anything from 8 on is the build itself. If you go 14/6 Paladin/Fighter then you're a Paladin splashing Fighter and not the inverse.

I don't know what you are responding to. The quote of mine that you included doesn't give me any clues either.

[oradafu]

I really didn't need a list. stuns are not the same thing as insta kills. no idea why you are trying to make a comparison. if you want to suggest that it has a lower AP cost, than fine. if you want to suggest that it has a chance to insta kill, than fine. if you want to suggest the stun lasts longer, than fine. if you want to suggest it extend to more than chaotic, than that's fine. i don't have a problem with any of that, but if you want to suggest more power to a stun ability, than you have to realize the cost is going to have to be higher.

insta kills like Void Strike, Assassinate and Touch of Death aren't restricted to an alignment. they are straight up insta kills just like FoD. some of them mobs have to make some kind of save and has a high ki cost. if you chose Touch of death, you cant pick anymore Tier 5 enhancements. you can with KOTC.

I was comparing Tier 4 and 5 abilities in other melee trees (usually in their DPS tree, which this is the sole DPS from paladins) that were much more powerful and cost less than 9 AP, as someone suggested. That's where the comparison between stuns and instant kills came in.

If you read the second half of my post, you would see that I then shifted and compared the Paladin's "instant kill" vs the others. To sum it up, Holy Retribution costs a Turn Undead while also having a save, a hard HP cap and alignment restriction on the target (which I forgot to mention, but you pointed out) whereas the others that I listed don't have as many hurdles to pass.

[OverlordOfRats]

I would not be a fan of moving vigor/sealed to a different tree. Those are signature HotD enhancements, and as such should remain in the KotC/HotD tree.

That is a reasonable reason.

I only suggested it because it would free up some space for possible other abilities.

[EllisDee37]

I was just trying to clear my head during an assignment and come up with a not overpowered tree, based on Sevs, but more useful. The discussion around my list certainly has lasted much longer than I expected. I'm open to constructive criticism though, and will likely edit it again if you give me an idea.

I am going to merge tier 3 & tier 4, opening up a tier 3 node.

Edit. The theory tree people are discussing.

I found his point about 9 AP being overpriced compelling. I'm not sure 6 AP isn't still overpriced.

I might go with 1 rank (full 3 seconds) 2 AP each for the now-consolidated two-tier line.

Tier 4: Censure Obscenity: Stun evil outsiders and undead on vorpal for 3 seconds, 1 rank, 2 AP
Tier 5: Censure Evil: Stun evil mobs and undead on vorpal for 3 seconds, 1 rank, 2 AP

I'm comfortable giving up the ability to censure eladrin, and whoever thought of including undead, that was brilliant. So a pally splash (defined as "not taking tier 5 in a pally tree") would get the ability to censure the flavorful pally archenemies, while a committed pally (one who takes tier 5 in a pally tree) gets a useful ability that isn't OP (3 seconds on vorpal) but is unique in that it's a way to stun undead. Of which there are many at endgame.

4 AP feels right for this.

[Munkenmo]

I found his point about 9 AP being overpriced compelling. I'm not sure 6 AP isn't still overpriced.

I might go with 1 rank (full 3 seconds) 2 AP each for the now-consolidated two-tier line.

Tier 4: Censure Obscenity: Stun evil outsiders and undead on vorpal for 3 seconds, 1 rank, 2 AP
Tier 5: Censure Evil: Stun evil mobs and undead on vorpal for 3 seconds, 1 rank, 2 AP

I'm comfortable giving up the ability to censure eladrin, and whoever thought of including undead, that was brilliant. So a pally splash (defined as "not taking tier 5 in a pally tree") would get the ability to censure the flavorful pally archenemies, while a committed pally (one who takes tier 5 in a pally tree) gets a useful ability that isn't OP (3 seconds on vorpal) but is unique in that it's a way to stun undead. Of which there are many at endgame.

4 AP feels right for this.

That was me, figured they should really be there in a kotc/hotd tree, thanks

I really don't like passion and I agree with the guys point earlier on that delaying the great cleave equivalent until level 12 is not particularly rewarding. I'd like to remove passion and drop a slightly weakened version of Avenging cleave to t4.

If I do that I could move reckoning to the right one place, that opens up a t5 slot that can tie in with the smite line, I'm weary of giving smites even more crit multipliers though, they add up fast. So other than making smites bypass armor I'm low on ideas.

[Qhualor]

1: Stunning is the third most effective form of crowd control, the second are charms and compulsions which have little support in DDO, and the most effective is death. Thus stuns must be compared against kill effects

2: 9 points is the same total cost as Keen Edge in kensai. If i had to choose, i would always pick the +4/+4 with +1 crit range of kensai over a 3 second stun every time.

3: The suggestion is a T5 enhancement that lays down and dies when compared to any other T5 enhancement.

and again, as ive said, the suggestion itself is bad design. No single active or passive should carry into multiple nodes unless extremely good. The only thing in the game i agree about being split up like such is Warpriest's Inflame ability and that is because the nodes differentiate and empower the ability while being correctly priced for their effect.

1. stuns are not the same thing as insta kills. do i really need to pull out a dictionary?

2. now you are comparing a stun to crit range?

3. if you want to change Holy Retribution so its an insta kill and not on vorpal with a 1k hp restriction than fine, but it should fall under the same restrictions as every other insta kill Tier 5.

[toapat]

Being able to make any evil or undead enemy helpless, with no save

Incorrect. Vorpals are:

A roll of natural 20
Which is confirmed as a critical hit (1st save)
Which is confirmed to act as a critical hit when rolled against fortification (2nd save)

there are technically 2 saves on all vorpals. Paladins mechanically will not have alot of fortification bypass when compared to say, a rogue.

1. stuns are not the same thing as insta kills. do i really need to pull out a dictionary?

2. now you are comparing a stun to crit range?

3. if you want to change Holy Retribution so its an insta kill and not on vorpal with a 1k hp restriction than fine, but it should fall under the same restrictions as every other insta kill Tier 5.

1. ask Anyone involved in pro-gaming. The most powerful form of CC is killing your opponents outright. this means that Stuns, a form of crowd control, have to be compared directly with kill effects. Tell me, how does a dead enemy recover and continue fighting?

2: because AP wise Keen edge costs the same. Which is more valuable? a restricted low proc stun which is parasitic to its prerequisites, or an ability which takes the effects of all its prerequisites and multiplies their power while being always available?

3: I want holy retribution to not have the HP threshold but the same save, along with an increased generation of smite evil charges on use. I also want it to remain an ability which costs Turn undead because it shouldnt be "use as soon as off cooldown". We already have Divine Sacrifice, Exaulted Cleave, and Avenging Cleave for that.

[Synthetic]

Incorrect. Vorpals are:

A roll of natural 20
Which is confirmed as a critical hit (1st save)
Which is confirmed to act as a critical hit when rolled against fortification (2nd save)

there are technically 2 saves on all vorpals. Paladins mechanically will not have alot of fortification bypass when compared to say, a rogue.

By passing fortification isn't a requirement for on vorpal effects. Confirming the critical is generally fairly easy since seeker adds a significant bonus to the roll - though I'm not sure if it's no fail on one assuming the bonus is high enough. Regardless it's a strong ability to automatically stun evil creatures on vorpal. Is it worth the amount of AP compared to other abilities I don't know.

Cheers