Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Munkenmo]

With the changes to holy sword, paladins pretty much need 19 levels of paladin to cast death ward. At level 18 they still only get 2 spells, and death ward is way lower priority than either holy sword or zeal. Death Ward is fighting tooth and nail with cure serious (and likely losing) in the battle for "distant third." I wouldn't base any tree design on the assumption that a paladin can cast death ward.

Tier 5s need a boost, so toss it in the tier 5 one. Seems reasonable enough to me even with the rest of the boosts you put in there. (Considering that any new level 4 spells will be afterthoughts for 18 or fewer paladin levels.)

Ah, gotcha. At first I thought you meant to say NOT 100%, but then the rest of that paragraph made it seem like you were 100% in favor and just chose an awkward wording.

Fair call, I added neg level immunity to Vigor of Life and renamed the ability.

t2 now grants 1d2/1d4/2d4 holy damage
t3 + are stuns on vorpal.

Added a new ability, Reckoning to tier 5, it's aoe damage and a small aoe heal.

My Kotc changes

[EllisDee37]

Fair call, I added neg level immunity to Vigor of Life and renamed the ability.

t2 now grants 1d2/1d4/2d4 holy damage
t3 + are stuns on vorpal.

Added a new ability, Reckoning to tier 5, it's aoe damage and a small aoe heal.

My Kotc changes

That's a quality tree proposal.

[maddmatt70]

Fair call, I added neg level immunity to Vigor of Life and renamed the ability.

t2 now grants 1d2/1d4/2d4 holy damage
t3 + are stuns on vorpal.

Added a new ability, Reckoning to tier 5, it's aoe damage and a small aoe heal.

My Kotc changes

Bah prefer a tier 5 upgrade to smite which adds another +1 to crit and multiplier and W for smite this in addition to empower smite at tier 4 and exalted at tier 3. Massive smites are so fun.

[OverlordOfRats]

Fair call, I added neg level immunity to Vigor of Life and renamed the ability.

t2 now grants 1d2/1d4/2d4 holy damage
t3 + are stuns on vorpal.

Added a new ability, Reckoning to tier 5, it's aoe damage and a small aoe heal.

My Kotc changes

Bastion of Life sounds like a good tier five ability.

Maybe add a +1 to hit and damage to the tier four and five weapon enhancement for when you don't roll a 20.

Edit: Or maybe what maddmatt70 suggest. +W to smites at tier four and + crit to smites at tier five.

[ddorimble]

With this post we go into more depth about:
~ The redesign of the Paladin spell Holy Sword spell.
~ The increase of the duration of the Zeal spell.

Really wish we could look at other Level 1, 2, and 3 spells too. Level 2 spells, in particular, are a wasteland. Level 4 is completely crowded.

I guess you could argue the usefulness of Remove Curse and Remove Blindness at Level 3 (I'd never use them, preferring potions instead)...but Level 2, there literally aren't even 4 spells worth memorizing for a level 19+ Paladin (who gets 4 Level 2 spell slots). Resist Energy is useful, Angelskin and Remove Paralysis may be of arguable worth, but I would never cast them, and the remaining three are stat buffs. Paladin spell list is seriously hurting.

[EllisDee37]

Two more thoughts on your proposal, ftd:

You can't really add a level 4 spell called Improved Holy Sword because Holy Sword itself is a level 4 spell.

You understandably skipped over the cores in your tree design. I was thinking that pure paladins sure could use some love, and virtually every good weapon is or can be made good-aligned very easily. How about change the capstone bonus to add metalline instead of good? This suggestion is probably an update or two late, since current endgame weapons are thunderforged, which are metalline by nature. So, hmm, to give the capstone some teeth, maybe have it let the paladin bypass all bypass-able dr? (Thaarak Hounds, maruts, etc...)

[OverlordOfRats]

Really wish we could look at other Level 1, 2, and 3 spells too. Level 2 spells, in particular, are a wasteland. Level 4 is completely crowded.

I guess you could argue the usefulness of Remove Curse and Remove Blindness at Level 3 (I'd never use them, preferring potions instead)...but Level 2, there literally aren't even 4 spells worth memorizing for a level 19+ Paladin (who gets 4 Level 2 spell slots). Resist Energy is useful, Angelskin and Remove Paralysis may be of arguable worth, but I would never cast them, and the remaining three are stat buffs. Paladin spell list is seriously hurting.

They could add Nightshield (Lv 1 cleric spell) to level two paladin spells

[EllisDee37]

They could add Nightshield (Lv 1 cleric spell) to level two paladin spells

Would that be too powerful? My paladin constantly grouses to my fighter/cleric about not getting nightshield. It's a great spell.

[OverlordOfRats]

Would that be too powerful? My paladin constantly grouses to my fighter/cleric about not getting nightshield. It's a great spell.

I do not know.

Paladins and rangers both have that problem of having to take spells so you don't get the warning about having empty slots

Looking at the cleric list it was one of the few low level ones that was at least useful and not an offensive spell.

Edit: Paladins would not be able to take it until level 8. I think realistically level 10 when they get a second level 2 spell.

[Munkenmo]

Two more thoughts on your proposal, ftd:

You can't really add a level 4 spell called Improved Holy Sword because Holy Sword itself is a level 4 spell.

You understandably skipped over the cores in your tree design. I was thinking that pure paladins sure could use some love, and virtually every good weapon is or can be made good-aligned very easily. How about change the capstone bonus to add metalline instead of good? This suggestion is probably an update or two late, since current endgame weapons are thunderforged, which are metalline by nature. So, hmm, to give the capstone some teeth, maybe have it let the paladin bypass all bypass-able dr? (Thaarak Hounds, maruts, etc...)

I skipped the cores because I think Sev has done a remarkably good job on them. (kudos Sev). The name for the Sev's holy sword spell could easily be changed, but there's a part of me that would like to see the existing spell left in the game.

As for the KOTC capstone, I know it's easy to get good via a plethora of different enhancements/ED's. I run my paladin in fury or LD, which don't have a method to obtain good, getting good free in the capstone does save me a twist / red slot. I think going one way or the other will likely leave the same amount of people feeling put off as they do currently.

I think I'd rather see the capstone get a significant Melee Power boost than have it bypass all DR's. Bypassing DR is easy enough as is, thus won't overly encourage me to stay pure, but a BIG boost to melee power might.

[bennyson]

let them fix pally's before we complain about fighters...

I said nothing about fighters, I spoke about Barbarians. My response towards poltt was that he was complaining that Fighters would have worst cleaves than Paladins when he completely ignored the fact that Barbarians and Eldritch Knights have better cleave attacks in their related Enhancement trees. Now Paladins are joining the bandwagon of "Oh I got better cleaves than you!" Which, by all means, is a good thing.

[Thar]

I said nothing about fighters, I spoke about Barbarians. My response towards poltt was that he was complaining that Fighters would have worst cleaves than Paladins when he completely ignored the fact that Barbarians and Eldritch Knights have better cleave attacks in their related Enhancement trees. Now Paladins are joining the bandwagon of "Oh I got better cleaves than you!" Which, by all means, is a good thing.

Hopefully barbarians are next on the fix list. They get an inate bonus with the glancing blows though. Barbarians really need more on the toughness/hard to kill aspect and just alittle bump on the dps aspect. Something like 2- dr per level (including epic lvls)

[the_one_dwarfforged]

speaking of barbarians and fighters...
im actually hoping at this point turbine ramps it up for pallies, you know really creates an absolute game breaking monster. if fighters and barbs get buffed after that, well theyll have to be balanced against paladins now wont they? yep that would work just fine for me.

[Nordenfeldt]

Greetings,

Holy Sword
Evocation (Good spells)
Paladin 4
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Metamagic: Quicken
Range: Touch
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None

It is a source of frustration to me about this game that one buys metamagic feats only to discover that random suitable spells are not affected by it for no particular reason.

Why on earth is this not spell affected by the 'extend' feat?

[Eth]

It is a source of frustration to me about this game that one buys metamagic feats only to discover that random suitable spells are not affected by it for no particular reason.

Why on earth is this not spell affected by the 'extend' feat?

Might be an oversight since the live version has no duration. I agree, that it should be extendable.

[azrael4h]

It is a source of frustration to me about this game that one buys metamagic feats only to discover that random suitable spells are not affected by it for no particular reason.

Why on earth is this not spell affected by the 'extend' feat?

Because the devs are moving toward making Extend worthless?

[EllisDee37]

I think I'd rather see the capstone get a significant Melee Power boost than have it bypass all DR's. Bypassing DR is easy enough as is, thus won't overly encourage me to stay pure, but a BIG boost to melee power might.

Yeah, now we're cooking with gas! Now that you point out this most obvious solution, all melee capstones should grant melee power, IMO.

For kotc, by significant, were you thinking in the 50 range? That might be too high, but I'd be willing to test it out. My first thought was 20, but that might be too low.

This in addition to all capstones across the board getting a bump from +2 stat to +4 stat.

[Zarebrant]

I'm a bit concerned about the requirements needed for the new Paladin cleaves. The intention was stated that they should replace the feats (Cleave/ Greater Cleave) and thus freeing feats for Paladins. That is a great idea! Now when we take a look at the requirements - and especially the levels in which you aquire the abilities to cleave - it suddenly beginns to feel like a bad trade.

Feats
Cleave: needs Power Attack as prerequisite. Thus you can take it as your second feat -> third level, Humans or Fighters at first level.
Geat Cleave: needs Cleave and BAB+4 as a prereqisite. Thus you can take it as your third feat -> sixth level, Humans or Fighters from fourth level on.

Enhancement Tree
Exalted Cleave: Needs Paladin level 2. -> Second level. Nothing wrong here...
Avenging Cleave: Needs Character level 12 (Paladin level 5). -> Twelfth level!!!

The thought of playing a melee character to level twelve without Greater Cleave makes me shudder. And the option to choose Great Cleave as soon as possible and let Fred do his psychochirurgical heresy (yes Heresy!) on my divinely anointed soul seams... not elegant.

Second - and probably more substantial - part of that problem is that you can only take Tier 5 from one Tree. Great Cleave is not an ability you want to miss on a Paladin, so (at least for my playstile) the choice is either Knight of the Chalice or keeping the Cleaves as feats. Of course we could take them as feats, but then the initial intention (freeing much needed feat slots) is lost...


Different options for possible workarounds:
- You could make Avenging Cleave a Tier 4 enhancement.
- You could get rid of the shared cooldown with Cleave/ Great Cleave.
- You could make Exalted Cleave a optional prerequisite for Great Cleave, so you can have Cleave (Feat) OR Exalted Cleave (Enhancement) as a prerequisite for Great Cleave. Although i guess it could be difficult to code (without bugs) and it breaks the general way in which feats need prerequisites.

My favorite solution:
Get rid of Passion. Make Avenging Cleave weaker (like a normal Great Cleave) but obtainable at Tier 4. Give us a Tier 5 enhancement that improves Avenging Cleave to the one now suggested.

Other thoughts:
- Why not keep the old Holy Sword spell and just ad the intended new Holy Sword as a different spell? Although the old Holy Sword was only usefull in very specific situations, there is probably no need to get rid of it.

[EllisDee37]

My favorite solution:
Get rid of Passion. Make Avenging Cleave weaker (like a normal Great Cleave) but obtainable at Tier 4. Give us a Tier 5 enhancement that improves Avenging Cleave to the one now suggested.

Agreed. To balance the AP cost, switch the tier 4 and tier 5 to one rank of 2 AP each, as opposed to three ranks of 1 AP each.

You make a good point with the new great cleave having ML12.

[Dilbon]

Wassup with Sacred Defender? Any news soon?