Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Coldin]

Nayus and Scrabbler, you're wrong.

By your logic, then Kensai also gives +2 crit range. Assassin also gives +2 crit range. Swasbuckler gives +2 crit range. But you're making that statement based on Imp. Crit, which always double any crit range boost. All you're doing by saying Holy Sword is +2 crit range is confusing the situation.



I would actually love to see Paladins have access to the Great Smiting feat. It could be locked out similar to the way Bard's Inspire Excellence requires 12 levels of the class to take. It would also provide a way for Smite Evil's usefulness to extend into Epic levels while requiring just a bit of investment, easier to do if Cleave/Great Cleave are no longer mandatory.

I would encourage people to stop focusing on Holy Sword though, and look at the tree itself. Both need feedback, and they can't get that about Knight of the Chalice if everyone is arguing about Holy Sword.

[bennyson]

but maybe he sees something I don't.

And yeah, maybe he sees something neither of us can.

*Epic Skull Shattering Facepalm*(Really hurts)

Are the both of you serious? This is simple logic am presenting here!

Improve Critical would be 100% useless to a Pale Master that is trying to reach high DC with Necromancy spells and never melees.

I don't mean any offense, but I thought people would see what I see when taking a "Melee" only feat when trying to build a full-on Caster.

[oradafu]

Ok, just some general thoughts about the KOTC tree itself.

The cores provide "to-hits" bonuses to evil and undead. At level 18, is it +3 to-hit total or an additional +3 to-hit so it's a +6 to-hit? Either way, very underwhelming with bane damage being removed and replaced with the light damage that should be provided for all paladins and not just KOTC paladins.

Empowered Smite is VERY underwhelming. If it was to add "Whenever you land a Vorpal Strike on a melee attack, 33% chance to regain 1 Smite use" then it would be useful. Even with Holy Retribution giving a recharge to Smites, that just means that Paladins that splash 4 levels of Cleric will have endless smiting.

Which leads to... Extra Turning and Improved Turning need to be combined because Paladins only use the Extra Turning. Might as well replace Improved Turning with Endless Turning so Paladins can recharge their stuff without EDs.

Divine Might needs to either drop to 1 AP for paladins or Warpriests need to have theirs raised to 2 AP. It doesn't make sense that the same ability is available to both classes, but Warpiests get it both cheaper and a tier lower.

Censure Demons and Censure Outsiders needs to be combined. Keeping with the merging of KOTC and HOTD (finally), why not also add an additional rank for Undead.

Even with the changes that I mentioned, KOTC would be highly underwhelming. As others have said, I had high hopes seeing Bards getting massive buffs via the Swashbuckler tree. Shame on me for actually believing a similar thing would happen here. This is shaping up to be a very similar experience to the last time Devs asked for player input to help fix the paladin trees...

[bennyson]

Ok, just some general thoughts about the KOTC tree itself.

The cores provide "to-hits" bonuses to evil and undead. At level 18, is it +3 to-hit total or an additional +3 to-hit so it's a +6 to-hit? Either way, very underwhelming with bane damage being removed and replaced with the light damage that should be provided for all paladins and not just KOTC paladins.

Empowered Smite is VERY underwhelming. If it was to add "Whenever you land a Vorpal Strike on a melee attack, 33% chance to regain 1 Smite use" then it would be useful. Even with Holy Retribution giving a recharge to Smites, that just means that Paladins that splash 4 levels of Cleric will have endless smiting.

Which leads to... Extra Turning and Improved Turning need to be combined because Paladins only use the Extra Turning. Might as well replace Improved Turning with Endless Turning so Paladins can recharge their stuff without EDs.

Divine Might needs to either drop to 1 AP for paladins or Warpriests need to have theirs raised to 2 AP. It doesn't make sense that the same ability is available to both classes, but Warpiests get it both cheaper and a tier lower.

Censure Demons and Censure Outsiders needs to be combined. Keeping with the merging of KOTC and HOTD (finally), why not also add an additional rank for Undead.

Even with the changes that I mentioned, KOTC would be highly underwhelming. As others have said, I had high hopes seeing Bards getting massive buffs via the Swashbuckler tree. Shame on me for actually believing a similar thing would happen here. This is shaping up to be a very similar experience to the last time Devs asked for player input to help fix the paladin trees...

This^

[Scrabbler]

By your logic, then Kensai also gives +2 crit range. Assassin also gives +2 crit range. Swasbuckler gives +2 crit range.

Yes, that's why I wrote that Kensei also gives +2 crit range. (Swashbuckler has +4, by the way)

But you're making that statement based on Imp. Crit, which always double any crit range boost.

Play a Barbarian and see if it really doubles every crit boost.

All you're doing by saying Holy Sword is +2 crit range is confusing the situation.

Nope. By pointing out that new Holy Sword actually provides a +2 crit range boost, I justified changing the spell so that instead of all the benefits coming at Paladin 14, they take more class levels to reach full power.

For example, Holy Sword could give +2 enhance and +1 crit range at 14, +1 crit mult at 16, another +1 crit range at 18, and then +1W at 20.

I would encourage people to stop focusing on Holy Sword though, and look at the tree itself. Both need feedback, and they can't get that about Knight of the Chalice if everyone is arguing about Holy Sword.

The trouble with that request is that the large majority of new Paladin power is contained within the Holy Sword spell. It's overshadowing the tree (which still contains serious problems) because it is literally much more influential on gameplay.

That suggests that Holy Sword should have some power taken away from it, and inserted into the Paladin KOTC tree.

[toapat]

Major Issues, listed in decending order of the list:

0: I dont understand whats going on with this layout of the core enhancements, i cant comment on them because im not comprehending what they are saying. also, you wrote Exaulted smite not Extra Smiting for the first tier enhancement
1: Improved Turning and Divine Light: If the team really wants to allow paladins to be able to use the turn undead ability, Please combine these together.
2: Action Boosts: Can you merge these together as a multiselector?
3: Can paladins receive Endless turning in place of the Improved Turning selector?
4: Divine Might: Can we get this for mana? Boosting Turn Undead uses is much more difficult than mana.
5: Rally: Underwhelming still, doesnt compete with a Cleric/Fvs' Inflame
6: Vigor Of Life and Sealed Life: Can these be moved to Sacred Defender, and merged into a single 6 point, 3 tier enhancement for them? This is just eating alot of potential room for expansion of the abilities.
7: Passion: Does this need to be separate from Divine Sacrifice?
8: Censure Outsiders: Should probably be merged into Censure Demons as an improved tier, for a 4AP/2 tier ability
9: Holy Retribution: can this be allowed to recharge 2 smite evil uses at third rank? as it is the ability is quite expensive for actual use

Changes i would make to this as well:

1: Rally: Temporary boost of +2 to all attributes of anyone within the AoE. Have the attributes last Minute/level but not stack and be over-ridden by bard Inspire Excelence
2: Cleaves: Severlin has said they go cost wise for ap 1/2/3. Id rather they cost 2/1/1 because alot of their power is loaded into the front as a result of actually gaining the attack vs buffing the attack. At 6 AP for third rank, my gut reaction is that this is too expensive, but at 1/1/1 the AP cost is absolutely too low. Perhaps Avenging cleave could cost 2/1/2
3: Divine might should cost 1/rank. Perhaps it should have an option to boost dex as well.
4: as above, Censure demons/outsiders become one node with a second rank of undead and a third of Undead and Evil or Chaotic outsiders.
5: Holy Retribution either cost 1/rank or restore 1 smite per rank on use and cost 2 Ap/Rank. Needs death effect threshold removed
6: Combine Improved Restoration and Extra remove disease. remain 1/rank. These nodes already rely heavily on eachother as is. Combining them would raise the number of paladins investing in this while not significantly increasing power. May then need to be reduced to +1/+1/+2 remove disease per rank. Do not increase the cost.

My personal desire would be that Paladins would get the option to use Smite evil with bows, as well as having multiselectors providing bow attacks in place of Exalted Cleave and Avenging Cleave

the idea earlier in the thread that Silverflame would give access to conjure arrows and allow ranged smiting would be nice. and increase its use.

[Coldin]

The trouble with that request is that the large majority of new Paladin power is contained within the Holy Sword spell. It's overshadowing the tree (which still contains serious problems) because it is literally much more influential on gameplay.

That suggests that Holy Sword should have some power taken away from it, and inserted into the Paladin KOTC tree.

It's "power" is largely moot now with the removal of the stacking. It's an adequate boost for Paladins at roughly two levels later than most classes receive a similar boost. Any power that would be removed to be put into KOTC would end up just making the spell fall back. It would also make investing more than 5 levels into paladin unappealing unless it was in turn put into cores. But if it was in the cores, then you basically force all paladins to invest in that tree, limiting build choice.

The spell is fine. It adds just barely enough power to not be pointless. Let's start talking about the tree.

[oradafu]

In my last post, I forgot to mention Remove Disease. This has always been a weak part of being a Paladin in the game. It's not just because easily obtainable potions work just as well. In fact, potions are superior to Remove Disease since the mobs that give players disease continual spam it, so Remove Disease runs out of charges fairly quickly if you actively use it. Potions are just faster, cheaper (since pp is not permanently gone, unlike the AP spent on Remove Disease charges) and more abundant.

Even with the Improved Restoration ranks, Lesser Restoration are easy and cheap to get. Restoration potions are slightly harder to get (but not by much) for players without UMD for reliable scrolls. Without UMD, Greater Restoration can be a bit harder and may have been useful, except that paladins focusing on the KOTC tree have Sealed Life, which makes the Improved Restoration abilities obsolete. And don't claim these are for other players and not the paladin because making nannybots ended years ago when we had several months where clerics refused to join and started soloing, which caused the current BYOH era.

Could these be improved? I doubt it. Merging Extra Remove Disease and Improved Restoration probably won't make more people pick this ability. Even adding additional buffs like Neutralize Poison and Remove Curse (which really should be part of upgrading this lackluster ability for paladins) won't make choice or even use Remove Disease more often than they do now. Heck, including all of the above and adding a Vigor buff to Remove Disease will probably not even make people use it anymore than they already do, which is rarely, if ever.

[Eth]

Since you are making changes to the Paladin spellbook, could you consider:
- drop CMW to spell level 2
- drop CSW to spell level 3
- add CSW as a level 4 spell

This would really help pallys with self healing.

[Scrabbler]

It's "power" is largely moot now with the removal of the stacking.

Why do people keep saying that removing the Holy Sword + Knife Spec and Holy Sword + Staff Spec combinations is a big deal for Paladin power? Were they seriously planning on a Rogue5 splash being the main way to build Paladins in the future?

It's an adequate boost for Paladins at roughly two levels later than most classes receive a similar boost.

No classes receive a similar boost at level 12. Knife Spec and Staff Spec aren't similar (although I can see how someone might think so, if they ignored weapon types). Keen Edge isn't similar. Critical Rage certainly isn't close! Tempest and Warpriest just dream of a tier5 like that.

The spell is fine. It adds just barely enough power to not be pointless.

It's hilarious that someone can look at +2 hit +2 damage +1W +1 crit mult +2 total crit range, making your crits more than twice as good, and call it "barely not pointless".

[Munkenmo]

Since you are making changes to the Paladin spellbook, could you consider:
- drop CMW to spell level 2
- drop CSW to spell level 3
- add CCW as a level 4 spell

This would really help pallys with self healing.

FTFY

I agree, but I'll bet WotC wouldn't allow it.

[Scrabbler]

In my last post, I forgot to mention Remove Disease. This has always been a weak part of being a Paladin in the game. It's not just because easily obtainable potions work just as well. In fact, potions are superior to Remove Disease since the mobs that give players disease continual spam it, so Remove Disease runs out of charges fairly quickly if you actively use it.

They could try making the Remove Disease charges regenerate rapidly over time, which could get it sorta competitive with potions. But that's still really not good enough for an AP feature, since probably most players (in most situations) don't even bother curing a disease. They trust to their fort, and if they happen to fail they can probably ignore the stat loss.

Something that might barely make Remove Disease enhancement worth it: your aura causes allies to have +8 disease saves, and not fail on natural 1.

[Scrabbler]

the idea earlier in the thread that Silverflame would give access to conjure arrows and allow ranged smiting would be nice. and increase its use.

If they actually touch Silver Flame as an archery religion, they should go all the way and give Paladins an enhancement which duplicates Thousand Stars. It wouldn't support Shuriken, but not require Zen Archery either. (Of course the cooldown wouldn't allow you to benefit from 10k Stars if you were also a Monk build).

That would probably be strong enough for tier5.

[Eth]

FTFY

I agree, but I'll bet WotC wouldn't allow it.

Yes, that's what I meant

[oradafu]

No classes receive a similar boost at level 12. Knife Spec and Staff Spec aren't similar (although I can see how someone might think so, if they ignored weapon types). Keen Edge isn't similar. Critical Rage certainly isn't close! Tempest and Warpriest just dream of a tier5 like that.


It's hilarious that someone can look at +2 hit +2 damage +1W +1 crit mult +2 total crit range, making your crits more than twice as good, and call it "barely not pointless".

First, Holy Sword doesn't give +2 total crit range. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, the spell only provides a +1 crit range. Just because the Improved Critical feats or Keen items stacks with it, doesn't make the spell provide an additional +1. By using that logic, Tenser's Transformation's +4 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution and +6 AC really provides more than more than +30 Strength, Dexterity and Constitution and more than +250 AC since feats, enhancements, items, etc stack with it.

Second, if you look collectively at what the base classes (without the trees) in the game get by level 12, you'll see that the casters get dots and nukes, rangers and fighters and monks get more free feats than you can shake a stick at, rogues get bonus feats and sneak attack, etc. Now if you include the enhancement trees, yes Holy Sword would be a comparable boost to what those classes get by level 12 to 14.

[EllisDee37]

Our goal is to make high level Paladins fun and competitive with other melee classes and builds. As we iterate on the design, we see the the total changes from armor boosts, Knight of the Chalice cores and Paladin spells make higher level Paladins competitive and fun. The Holy Sword changes with a Competence bonus means that high level players have an alternate way to gain the critical boosts they need to be compete.

If it isn't Competence we agree with player feedback that certain stacking combos pigeon-hole Paladins into very specific builds.

Yep, exactly. Good call. The point shouldn't be to make 14 levels of paladin the new "must-have" base for a melee character, but instead should be to make a melee character who wants a lot of paladin levels a useful contributor in groups. Kudos. (And I love the other changes in general: +1[W] for holy sword, nerfing blitz to 170 total melee power, etc... Pretty stoked for the next update.)

Regarding the people bemoaning handwraps, keep in mind that handwraps are NOT melee weapons. The game doesn't consider them weapons at all. Note that the fighting style using handwraps is called "unarmed." As in, you aren't armed with a melee weapon. So any time you see a reference to "affects melee weapons," that effect won't work on handwraps because they aren't melee weapons.

Whether they should be considered melee weapons is a separate debate from whether holy sword should apply to handwraps. The former is a legitimate debate, the latter is a definitive "no" based on the current definition of fighting with handwraps. ("Unarmed.")

[Munkenmo]

My Suggested Improvements to the KOTC Tree

Tier One (0 AP Required)

• Extra Turning: +(1/2/3) Turn Attempts per rest.
• Divine Light: Your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.
• Exalted Smite: You gain 2/4 additional use of Smite Evil per rest.
• Rally: Channel Divinity: Remove fear from nearby allies. You and the affected allies gain a +2/+4/+6 Morale Bonus to Will Saves vs. Fear effects and a +1/+2/+3 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage for 60 seconds.

Tier Two (5 AP Required)
• Your equipped weapon gains 1d2/1d4/2d4 holy damage per attack. (2/2/2ap)
• Improved Turning: You count as (1/2/3) levels higher when turning undead, and add (2/4/6) to the number of hit dice turned, Rank 3 regenerate one turn every 180 seconds.
• Divine Might: Channel Divinity: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Cooldown 20 seconds)
• Exalted Cleave: Shares its cooldown with the Cleave feat. Make a sweeping attack against all nearby enemies for +1/+2/+3[W] damage.
• Action Boost Damage: Activate to gain a (+10/+20/+30)% Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds).


Tier Three (10 AP Required)
• Improved Restoration: Your Paladin Remove Disease ability now also applies a (Lesser Restoration / Restoration / Greater Restoration) effect.
• Divine Sacrifice: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional (5/7/9)d6 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 5 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. Light damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
• Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
• Exalted Smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.
• Str or Cha: +1 Strength or Charisma

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Your equipped weapon gains On Vorpal: Stuns Evil outsiders for 3 seconds. (2 ap)
• Passion: Your Divine Sacrifice ability gains: On Damage: Gain (5/10/15) temporary spell points if you strike an undead or evil outsider an evil creature with this attack.
• Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
• Empowered Smite: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities now grant a buff that increases Melee Power by 10 for 10 seconds.
• Str or Cha: +1 Strength or Charisma

Tier Five (40 AP Required)
• Your equipped weapon gains On Vorpal: Stuns Undead and enemies with Evil Alignment for 3 seconds. (2 ap)
• Bastion of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy, You are immune to Energy Drain.
• Holy Retribution: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. (Cooldown: 25/20/15 seconds) This ability also has a 25/50/75% chance to recharge one Smite Evil.
• Reckoning: You deem a foe unworthy, if the enemy dies within 10 seconds it will emit a blast of light damaging all nearby enemies for 100 damage and healing nearby players for 10d10 hp.
• Avenging Cleave: Shares its cooldown with the Great Cleave feat. Make a powerful sweeping attack against all nearby enemies that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Each creature gains one stack of Vulnerability.


Notable Changes:
Merged Level Drain Immunity & tier 5 Vigor of life.
Removed actionboost attack & shifted Rally to tier 1
Added Holy damage to attacks toggle
Added Regen turn undead to tier 3 of Improved Turning.
Added Reckoning
Scaled back the damage on Holy Retribution, removed the Turn undead cost, increased cool down, Removed the vorpal like aspects, Lowered the chance to regenerate smites. (should average regenning 3 smites per minute)


Not overpowered, far more relevant. Needed.

While you're at it Sev, please add the following to a paladins spell list:
Level 2:
Shield Other: You take half of subject’s damage. (Maybe it'll have to be a clone of Arti's Radiant Forcefield, but it's a good addition)

Level 3:
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four caster levels (max +5) (Stacking)

Level 4:
Improved Holy Sword, (Your competence proposal.)
Mark of Justice: Casts Curse on Target, Target takes 10% extra damage for 20 seconds, No save, works on all mobs & bosses that are susceptible to curse.

[EllisDee37]

Hate the favored weapons, but otherwise not bad.

[Eth]

• Holy Retribution: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. (Cooldown: 25/20/15 seconds) This ability also has a 25/50/75% chance to recharge one Smite Evil.

Now this looks more like a Tier 5 than the current plan without being overpowered. I like it.

[Munkenmo]

Hate the favored weapons, but otherwise not bad.

Yeah, but even on my Esos wielding Human I'd prefer my proposal to Sev's.