Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[bennyson]

Scrabbler claimed that Holy Sword had GOOD DAMAGE

Oops

sorry...I thought you meant that the new Holy Sword would be a terrible weapon buff. My bad ._.

Also, why would Scrabbler claimed that Holy Sword still had the holy burst effect on it still? It isn't there!

[Scrabbler]

It does not give +2 crit range for instance. >.> Im not sure how you even read that.

Oh really, Holy Sword doesn't give +2 crit range?

If you're at 15-20 x2 and cast Holy Sword, you'll wind up at 13-20 x3. Your crit range has gone from 15 to 13, which is a difference of 2.

Of course, the reason it gives +2 is because the player either has Improved Crit or is holding a Keen weapon; that's far more likely than the player not having a crit-doubler ability. But it does mean that in terms of game design, we need to look at Holy Sword as giving +2 crit range. Kensei Keen Edge, Swashbuckler Swashbuckling, and many other effects also work like this.

It would be better if the devs changed everything that gives a +X bonus to critical threat range so that it is NOT multiplied by Imp Crit / Keen. Instead they should simply double the amount of crit range given by the effect. Then they'd have the ability to create features which really give +1 crit range, instead of +2 being the minimum. For example, they could have Holy Sword give +1 crit range at level 14, and then another +1 crit range at level 17.


PS. Barbarian Critical Rage apparently already works that way. It shouldn't be an outlier.

[bennyson]

Oh really, Holy Sword doesn't give +2 crit range?

If you're at 15-20 x2 and cast Holy Sword, you'll wind up at 13-20 x3. Your crit range has gone from 15 to 13, which is a difference of 2.

Of course, the reason it gives +2 is because the player either has Improved Crit or is holding a Keen weapon; that's far more likely than the player not having a crit-doubler ability. But it does mean that in terms of game design, we need to look at Holy Sword as giving +2 crit range. Kensei Keen Edge, Swashbuckler Swashbuckling, and many other effects also work like this.

It would be better if the devs changed everything that gives a +X bonus to critical threat range so that it is NOT multiplied by Imp Crit / Keen. Instead they should simply double the amount of crit range given by the effect. Then they'd have the ability to create features which really give +1 crit range, instead of +2 being the minimum. For example, they could have Holy Sword give +1 crit range at level 14, and then another +1 crit range at level 17.


PS. Barbarian Critical Rage apparently already works that way. It shouldn't be an outlier.

Yes really, it doesn't. Holy Sword, by itself, is +2 ench with everything else in that spell is +1[w] with +1 to a weapon's crit profile. Not everyone will have Improve Crit feats, as it depends on the build of a character and/or epic destines you use. :/

[maddong]

What about changing the paladin spell levels? As it is they get their 2nd spell at 15, but it isn't until 19 that they get their 3rd spell. Getting zeal at 15 (I assume everyone will take holy sword at 14) just screams to me splash 5 levels of something else for a better 5th tier enhancement.

To me it would make sense to spread the fruit around and give the second spell at 16 and the third spell at 18.

[Nascoe]

What about changing the paladin spell levels? As it is they get their 2nd spell at 15, but it isn't until 19 that they get their 3rd spell. Getting zeal at 15 (I assume everyone will take holy sword at 14) just screams to me splash 5 levels of something else for a better 5th tier enhancement.

To me it would make sense to spread the fruit around and give the second spell at 16 and the third spell at 18.

Why would we make it harder to get to the good stuff? Instead of ruining anyone's chances of making a 15 Paladin/5x build and use both holy sword and zeal there should just be really good options in the T5 paladin trees as well as other motivation to go mainly paladin. Doing it by limiting options is negative thinking

[Lonnbeimnech]

Again.

Paladin is the weakest class in the game.

They are trying to make it better.

Can we get on the same page.

Stop suggesting nerfs.

[bennyson]

Again.

Paladin is the weakest class in the game.

They are trying to make it better.

Can we get on the same page.

Stop suggesting nerfs.

Mostly is around Holy Sword...

But in all manners of seriousness, this talk about a single spell is getting old.

I barely seen any comments about the ENHANCEMENTS!

Personally, I think Empowered Smite is worthless and +10 MP is laughable. I suggest making it something that directly improves Smite Evil instead of something that indirectly does.

How about +50% bonus to Smite Evil damage with a 5% chance to AOE damage mobs with Light Damage that scales with Paladin levels?

[maddmatt70]

Mostly is around Holy Sword...

But in a manners of seriousness, this talk about a single spell is getting old.

I barely seen any comments about the ENHANCEMENTS!

Personally, I think Empowered Smite is worthless and +10 MP is laughable. I suggest making it something that directly improves Smite Evil instead of something that indirectly does.

How about +50% bonus to Smite Evil damage with a 5% chance to AOE damage mobs with Light Damage that scales with Paladin levels?

I agree with you. I would like Holy Retribution to be better and cleaves feel a little lacking, but the real thing I am dissapointed with here is the smiting. I really enjoy the smite mechanic in DDO with the recharge of smites you get from the epic destiny. I am dissapointed that smiting did not get a big boost with these enhancements. I would have preferred a big dps gain with smiting which fits in with D&D thematically.

[bennyson]

I agree with you. I would like Holy Retribution to be better and cleaves feel a little lacking, but the real thing I am dissapointed with here is the smiting. I really enjoy the smite mechanic in DDO with the recharge of smites you get from the epic destiny. I am dissapointed that smiting did not get a big boost with these enhancements. I would have preferred a big dps gain with smiting which fits in with D&D thematically.

Well instead of my idea for improving Smite Evil directly, they should instead replace Empowered Smite with...


Great Smiting! (LINK: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Great_Smiting )

Seriously, this thing improves smite evil damage and is long-overdue.

[Qhualor]

Well instead of my idea for improving Smite Evil directly, they should instead replace Empowered Smite with...


Great Smiting! (LINK: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Great_Smiting )

Seriously, this thing improves smite evil damage and is long-overdue.

that is actually an epic feat. i would rather see that either auto granted to Paladins to replace regular Smites at 20 or put into the US destiny.

[bennyson]

that is actually an epic feat. i would rather see that either auto granted to Paladins to replace regular Smites at 20 or put into the US destiny.

._.

Nvm

(P.S. Yes, give it to paladins for FREE at level 20 (if their pure))

[FranOhmsford]

Mostly is around Holy Sword...

But in all manners of seriousness, this talk about a single spell is getting old.

How about they just make Holy Sword's benefits stronger with subsequent Paladin Levels:

Reduce the benefits at 14 and Upgrade it at Paladin 16,18 and 20!

This way Paladins could take a different Lvl 4 spell at 14 {Death Ward, Zeal or Cure Serious are all good choices!} without being called out for NOT having Holy Sword!

[bennyson]

How about they just make Holy Sword's benefits stronger with subsequent Paladin Levels:

Reduce the benefits at 14 and Upgrade it at Paladin 16,18 and 20!

This way Paladins could take a different Lvl 4 spell at 14 {Death Ward, Zeal or Cure Serious are all good choices!} without being called out for NOT having Holy Sword!

I thinking posting your idea in the Suggestion tab was a little extreme, but to each their own.

[FranOhmsford]

I thinking posting your idea in the Suggestion tab was a little extreme, but to each their own.

How exactly is posting a suggestion in the SUGGESTION tab extreme?

And yes this thread is supposedly being looked at by the Devs but many players will skim over it and not see my suggestion here so I felt an actual thread devoted to it would be a good idea.

[bennyson]

How exactly is posting a suggestion in the SUGGESTION tab extreme?

And yes this thread is supposedly being looked at by the Devs but many players will skim over it and not see my suggestion here so I felt an actual thread devoted to it would be a good idea.

1. I thought it was a "little" extreme because you took this idea and posted it as a primary topic in the Suggestion tab.

2. Understandable.

[Nayus]

Not everyone will have Improve Crit feats, as it depends on the build of a character and/or epic destines you use. :/

No, it doesn't depend on anything. If you don't have Improved Critical then perhaps you should just quit.

Or re-roll.

[Enoach]

First I'm not completely sold on Melee Power - Especially when in my opinion simply changing static damage to a calculation based on the appropriate Class Level/Character level as appropriate would probably be a cleaner fix.

Next I like the direction that Turbine is looking at for the Holy Sword spell. I think it will be a big benefit to making 14+ levels of paladin worth taking. There are a few good spells to add to a paladin's spell list at level 4; Deathward, Zeal and for some builds Cure Serious wounds. By making Holy Sword a Beneficial Weapon buff (Hoping it is implemented as a self buff similar to Artificer's Insightful damage/strike) and it also opens the spell to being useful to all weapons. I do hope that they figure out why handwraps have such issue with weapon buffs and that this spell will work for handwraps. While I was hoping it would maintain the holy and cold iron/silver and protection from evil DR breaker type, I will be happy with the +2 Enhancement and +1 Crit mult/range and +1[W] damage they are currently proposing.

I also like the changes they are considering for the Knight of the Chalice Tree especially the Cleaves. Paladin has always been tight on feats, having Cleaves that are available in the enhancement tree opens up potentially one to two feats for Paladin builds (those that already take more than 6 levels).

I'm still looking for the changes they are proposing to the Defender tree, especially in how it works with shields and defense as well as Hate generation.

Again I'm not totally sold on Melee power as a fix or good direction but I'm hopeful that by having these discussions we as a community can help the developers see both the good and bad in proposed solutions

[bennyson]

No, it doesn't depend on anything. If you don't have Improved Critical then perhaps you should just quit.

Or re-roll.

Build: High Int Pale Master DC Reacher

Destiny: Magister

Purpose: Get highest DCs as possible with Necromancy spells

Would Improved Critical work for this? I don't think so.

[oradafu]

No, it doesn't depend on anything. If you don't have Improved Critical then perhaps you should just quit.

Or re-roll.

Well, I have to side with Bennyson here because not everyone will have Improved Critical as Scrabbler implied. Bennyson was replying to Scrabbler. Scrabbler claimed that Holy Sword would be a +2 Crit profile is Improved Critical or Keen will stack with it. This is false, because Holy Sword only gives a +1 Crit profile, whether or not it stacks with both of those.

So if I have Improved Critical: Slashing (because I want to the best crit possible for my main weapon), when I have to switch to a Maul for skeletons or some ranged weapon (because the Devs have added a whole bunch of Ranged only mobs lately) then I won't have an Improved Critical for those weapons. Holy Sword on such weapons will not gain the +2 crit profile that Scrabbler claimed, since I (like most people I'll assume) aren't going to waste a feat on more than one Improved Critical.

Because of those circumstances, Bennyson is correct, when he said, "Not everyone will have Improve Crit feats..."

Edit: Ok, I'll disagree that a necro DC Pale Master build would have Holy Sword, but maybe he sees something I don't.

[Nayus]

Build: High Int Pale Master DC Reacher

Destiny: Magister

Purpose: Get highest DCs as possible with Necromancy spells

Would Improved Critical work for this? I don't think so.

LOL. Please stop making such a circus out of yourself, a DC Int-Based Pale Master won't melee. Why must you refuse so badly to lose an argument? Just admit you're wrong already.

@orafudu
And there is a little something in this game called "Fortification Bypass", it's been a very long time since undead were immune to crits. If you're not taking Improved Critical on a melee then you're just gimping yourself for no reason. Nothing in this game adds more DPS than increasing your crit profile.

And yeah, maybe he sees something neither of us can. I guess I'm gonna play an int Based Paladin and splash some wiz for instakills.