Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[jakeelala]

Frankly, I'm not concerned about Holy Sword working or not working on Handwraps or Ranged. My argument was limiting Holy Swords to just swords, when in fact the pnp version has been for ANY equipped melee weapon. It's bad enough that the Devs have changed Divine Might and many other Paladin stuff away from pnp stuff, but to make the only announced change that all Paladins get to work on less weapons than pnp would have been too far.

If the spell is expanded to non-melee weapons, great. But if expanding the spell to work with those weapons causes the spell to be less powerful and not stacking with stuff, I say remove the non-melee weapons.

I'm not worried about monks and their stupid wraps in this discussion. I'm worried about Paladins in this discussion.

This change was not really made with Ranged or Throwing in mind. The builds that would largely benefit from it stacking would be Qstaff builds (Monk or Rogue), or Knives (Rogue). It could have been a concern for Fighters if they could take Keen Edge before lvl 8, but they cant so they wouldn't have enough levels to have that and Holy Sword.

A sireth or dual knife or single weapon fighting knife user would have trouble not splashing 14 Pally if it stacked. It would be by far the highest DPS split. If it works with Throwing, then a 14 Pally/6 Monk or /3Monk/3x Halfling thrower would have been out and out the best possible shuriken build by a healthy distance.

I fought against this change even though it would have resulted in the most superior throwing build this game has ever seen. Simply because that makes the game boring. I would never have let Monkchers eclipse Manyshot/Doubleshot toons either though if I had been in charge years ago. We'd have a much more interesting Ranged character milieu if they had implemented Doubleshot debuff on Manyshot differently.

[Ayseifn]

I'm not worried about monks and their stupid wraps in this discussion. I'm worried about Paladins in this discussion.

On that note, will Holy Sword work on shields?

[FlaviusMaximus]

Notes on how crit power is determined and details about how these comparisons are made are at the end of the post.


Comparing Holy Sword crit profiles to Kensai, Ravager, and Frenzied Berserker crit profiles:


Heavy/Light Picks

Holy Sword with Heavy/Light Picks: 17-20 x 5, 15-20 x 5 in Crusader. Crit power: 16 (out of Crusader), 24 (in Crusader)
Kensai/Ravager with Heavy/Picks Picks: 17-20 x 4, 15-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 18
Frenzied Berserker in Death Frenzy with Heavy/Light Picks: 19-20 x 7, 17-18 x 4, 19-20 x 7 in Crusader.Crit Power: 12, 18

Holy Sword will give Heavy/Light Picks a 50% better crit profile than T5 Kensai, Ravager, and Berserker (all compared builds not in Crusader) and a 33% better crit profile when all builds being compared are in Crusader.

Khopeshes

Holy Sword with Khopeshes: 15-20 x 4, 13-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit Power: 18, 24
Kensai/Ravager with Khopeshes: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16
Frenzied Berserker in Death Frenzy with Khopeshes: 17-18 x 3/19-20 x 6, 15-18 x 3/19-20 x 6 in Crusader. Crit Power: 14, 18

Holy Sword will give khopeshes a 50% better crit profile that Kensai and Ravager regardless of destiny, and will give weapons a 29% better crit profile (non-Crusader)/33% better crit profile (all compared builds in Crusader) than Frenzied Berserker.

Falchion/Raper/Scimitar/Kukri

Holy Sword with Falchion/Rapier/Scimitar/Kukri: 13-20 x 3, 11-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 16, 20
Kensai/Ravager with Falchion/Rapier/Scimitar/Kukri: 13-20 x 2, 11-20 x 2 in Crusader. Crit Power: 8, 10
Frenzied Berserker in Death Frenzy with Falchion/Rapier/Scimitar/Kukri: 15-18 x 2/19-20 x 5, 13-18 x 2/19-20 x 5 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 14

Holy Sword gives these weapons a 100% better crit profile than Kensai/Ravager regardless of destiny and will give the weapons a 33% better crit profile (non-Crusader)/43% better crit profile (all builds in Crusader) than Frenzied Berserker.

Great Axe/Maul/Dwarven Axe/Warhammer

Holy Sword with Great Axe/Maul/Dwarven Axe/Warhammer: 17-20 x 4, 15-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 18
Kensai/Ravager with Great Axe/Maul/Dwarven Axe/Warhammer: 17-20 x 3, 15-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 8, 12
Frenzied Berserker in Death Frenzy with Great Axe/Maul/Dwarven Axe/Warhammer: 19-20 x 6, 17-18 x 3/19-20 x 6 in Crusader. Crit Power: 10, 14

Holy Sword gives these weapons a 50% better crit profile than Kensai/Ravager regardless of destiny and gives these weapons a 20% better crit profile (non-Crusader)/29% better crit profile (Crusader) than Frenzied Berserker.

Bastard Sword/Long Sword/Short Sword/Great Sword/Dagger

Holy Sword with Bastard Sword/Long Sword/Short Sword/Great Sword/Dagger: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16
Kensai/Ravager with Bastard Sword/Long Sword/Short Sword/Great Sword/Dagger: 15-20 x 2, 13-20 x 2 in Crusader. Crit Power: 6, 8
Frenzied Berserker in Death Frenzy with Bastard Sword/Long Sword/Short Sword/Great Sword/Dagger: 17-18 x 2/19-20 x 5, 15-18 x /19-20 x 5 in Crusader. Crit Power: 10, 12

Holy Sword doubles the crit power of all swords and daggers in comparison to Kensai and Ravager regardless of destiny and provides these weapon types with a 20% better crit profile that Berserker out of Crusader/ 33% better in.


Comparing Holy Sword crit profiles to Swashbuckler crit profiles:


Dagger/Shortsword

Equal

Rapier, Kukri

Holy Sword with Rapier/Kukri: 13-20 x 3, 11-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 16, 20
Swashbuckler with Rapier/Kukri: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16

Holy Sword will give rapiers and kukris a 33% better crit profile than Swashbuckler (non-Crusader) and a 25% better crit profile than Swashbuckler (all compared builds in Crusader).

Light Pick:

Holy Sword with Light Picks: 17-20 x 5, 15-20 x 5 in Crusader. Crit power: 16, 24
Swashbuckler with Light Picks: 17-20 x 4, 15-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit power: 12, 18

Holy Sword will give light picks a 33% better crit profile than Swashbuckler both in and outside of Crusader.

Hand Axe

Holy Sword with Hand Axe: 17-20 x 4, 15-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 18
Swashbuckler with Hand Axe: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16

Holy Sword and Swashbuckler provide equal crit profiles for hand xes outside of Crusader and Holy Sword is 13% better than Swashbuckler when both are in Crusader.

Light Mace/Light Hammer/Kama/Sickle

Holy Sword with Light Mace/Light Hammer/Kama/Sickle: 17-20 x 3, 15-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 8, 12
Swashbuckler with Light Mace/Light Hammer/Kama/Sickle: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16

Swashbuckling gives light maces a 50% better crit profile outside of Crusader and a 33% better crit profile when both are in Crusader.

The Paladin spell Holy Sword will beat out all other crit bonuses available to all other classes by a decent to large margin, with the exception of four non-essential weapons affected while Swashbuckling which in turn lose out to other, better weapon options with better crit profiles while using Holy Sword whether one is utilizing a dex build or not. While one might be able to provide a named weapon or two of the type that Swashbuckler wins out on and attempt to use this as an argument that Holy Sword is in any way lacking, these named weapons lose out when compared to Thunderforged weapons, which are and should be the basis for all weapon comparisons.

If you want to enjoy the best critical profiles in the game, then yes, you are going to have to suffer through devoting at least 14 levels of your character to the best defensive melee class in the game (along with Monks), Paladins. You are going to have to suck it up and accept those high save bonuses, cure spells, and Lay on Hands uses, along with offensive bonuses like Divine Favor, and possibly Divine Might and Damage Boost along the way :/.

Oh, but here's the worst part: In order to get this weapon buff that outshines all others, you will also need to invest 0 AP.

But I know, it's just critical profiles. It's just the dominant factor when determining a weapon's value. Who cares that Holy Sword beats out everything else in that regard? (or ties a couple other things in a couple instances)

I know, what a waste. I, for one, hate ridiculous damage almost as much as I hate defensive abilities and will not cease to complain about the spell.

I just wonder if there is any danger in constantly complaining about the ability being underpowered. I mean, what if I keep pushing for it to be made better until it inspires someone to post how ridiculously overpowered it already is and it actually gets scaled back in order to avoid an endless buffing cycle, in which classes jump out far ahead of each other just to force the other classes to be buffed one at a time when the complaining ensues during the following months? I mean, if the attempt is to balance classes and stop the complaining in the forums, what if I inadvertently call attention to the fact that this will just make for more work later and doesn't actually balance things?

Nah. I'm shooting for the moon!

Notes:

To determine the crit power of a weapon, total up the number of times the weapon damage will be added on a crit. So on a 20 x 2 weapon, the crit value would be 1 because the standard hit damage is added 1 additional time. A crit profile of 17-20 x 3 would be 8. That's the crit range (4) times the number of times the standard damage is added on top of the non-crit damage (2). Crit range x (multiplier -1) = crit power or crit value. The standard non-crit damage (x1) is not factored in, which is why it is subtracted.

A couple things to note: Kensai crit range expansion expands the crit range of the weapon by +2 after improved critical is factored in. Ravager does not, so the total bonus to crit range with T5 Ravager (+2) is equal to that of T5 Kensai (+2). Ranged weapon crit profiles will not be compared since it isn't yet clear whether Holy Sword will work with ranged weapons. Base weapon damage is not factored into this comparison. This is a comparison of crit profiles only. When comparisons of different crit bonuses are made in Divine Crusader, all build types are in Crusader to not create a discrepancy.

If anyone finds any math errors, they will be corrected on Sunday.

[B0ltdrag0n]

he is changing melee power as we go, but he said this is basically the "player input" phase and tweaking his proposal.

light damage to the cores is to add another desire to invest more levels of paladin.

OP was updated 8/01.

He did not make any changes to the PRE in the updated post. I can read quite well thank you very much. I am asking what changes to the PRE he has planned base3 on the new revelations he gave us. I know why light damage was added to the cores, however it does not scale to the original degree that they had intended and thus is worse. Hence I am asking for a simple update to address that concern (rightly a good one as the PRE is kinda bad right now)

[B0ltdrag0n]

Flav your math doesn't take one thing into account. 8 extra levels in a still very mediocre class with bad trees.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Yes, Yes, Yes, a thousand times yes!!!! Otherwise, 14 Pally just lets you Be Your Own Artificer (with a couple fairly weak adds). A lot of "boosts' to classes lately have simply mimicked things other classes can do, and, at first, I thought this was a neat idea, "Oh, ok, now I can stay pure, and haz this ability that I otherwise couldn't get", BUT, a friend of mine (who is frequently extreme in his views) and I were discussing the game lately, and he is rabid about the problem with the classes becoming too much alike. So, I've been thinking a lot about this lately, and you know, he's right, it's a HUGE problem.

So, please, please, please let at least the +[W] be an only Paladin thing and stack with everything else in the game that comes from another class (deadly, arty weapon buff, etc.), as the entire spell should have been. I understand the arguments about multiclassiing, and why certain things (probably) shouldn't stack, but if we continue to homogenize this game and make sure that every class has access to ALL the same powers, we might as well go back to "Fighting Man", "Magic User", "Elf" (for those that don't know, elf was a class that combined Fighter and Magic User).

And the scaling effect mentioned above, continuing into Epic levels, that would be OK too (although that should also stack).

I'm very much afraid, however, that this will fall afoul of the old "only one spell on an item rule", however, and that's why trying to buff a class with just a spell is a problem....

Thanks for listening.

A weapon can only have one item enchantment at a time.

So holy sword will more than likely not work at the same time as deadly weapons or any other arti weapon buffs.

[Scrabbler]

Flav your math doesn't take one thing into account. 8 extra levels in a still very mediocre class with bad trees.

Even if you ignore the +2 total crit range (which is available via other classes), simply knowing that those extra 9 Paladin levels will eventually give you +1 crit mult and 10% doublestrike make them a superior class, not a "mediocre" one.

The Paladin trees may or may not be bad... the devs don't want them to be bad trees, and will probably try to fix them if they turn out that way... but even if the Paladin trees are bad, requiring only 14-15 Paladin levels to get Holy Sword + Zeal means you can put 5 levels into another class and get yourself a good AP tree too!

If you look at Holy Sword in terms of gaining +1 crit range, +1 crit range, and +1 crit mult all at once in Pal14, it becomes pretty clear that those 3 benefits should've been spread out over more class levels.


PS. The most likely result of Holy Sword giving +2 total crit range and +1 crit mult is that after 14 months have passed, Kensei and Ravager will be buffed to get another +1 crit mult as well... then Tempest and Assassin 4 months after that. Then Paladin isn't way out in front anymore.

[Grailhawk]

Rapier, Kukri

Holy Sword with Rapier/Kukri: 13-20 x 3, 11-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 16, 20
Swashbuckler with Rapier/Kukri: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16

Holy Sword will give rapiers and kukris a 33% better crit profile than Swashbuckler (non-Crusader) and a 25% better crit profile than Swashbuckler (all compared builds in Crusader).

Light Pick:

Holy Sword with Light Picks: 17-20 x 5, 15-20 x 5 in Crusader. Crit power: 16, 24
Swashbuckler with Light Picks: 17-20 x 4, 15-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit power: 12, 18

Holy Sword will give light picks a 33% better crit profile than Swashbuckler both in and outside of Crusader.

Hand Axe

Holy Sword with Hand Axe: 17-20 x 4, 15-20 x 4 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 18
Swashbuckler with Hand Axe: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16

Holy Sword and Swashbuckler provide equal crit profiles for hand xes outside of Crusader and Holy Sword is 13% better than Swashbuckler when both are in Crusader.

Light Mace/Light Hammer/Kama/Sickle

Holy Sword with Light Mace/Light Hammer/Kama/Sickle: 17-20 x 3, 15-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 8, 12
Swashbuckler with Light Mace/Light Hammer/Kama/Sickle: 15-20 x 3, 13-20 x 3 in Crusader. Crit Power: 12, 16

Swashbuckling gives light maces a 50% better crit profile outside of Crusader and a 33% better crit profile when both are in Crusader.

You're not factoring in Exploit Weakness.

Rapiers on a swashbuckler have a who had Swashbuckling and Exploit Weakness has a average crit rate of 40.9% that's 0.9% better than 13-20 which is only 40% in Crusader swashbuckler has 48.4% crit chance which holy sword is only 2% better than.

[Qhualor]

That is not a correct assessment of the current tree on live, or of the one previewed. He is changing how he wants melee power to work. He specifically added that light damage to the cores (for some reason) but it will nto scale to the previous levels now, thus making it worse.

Thus I ask for the updated plan.

He did not make any changes to the PRE in the updated post. I can read quite well thank you very much. I am asking what changes to the PRE he has planned base3 on the new revelations he gave us. I know why light damage was added to the cores, however it does not scale to the original degree that they had intended and thus is worse. Hence I am asking for a simple update to address that concern (rightly a good one as the PRE is kinda bad right now)

(for some reason)

i can read quite well also thank you.

[Scrabbler]

A weapon can only have one item enchantment at a time.

Try casting Deadly Weapon + Insightful Strikes and see if that's really true.

Weapons can have only one enchantment that's castable by other people. Self-only weapon spells are separate from that.

[oradafu]

A weapon can only have one item enchantment at a time.

So holy sword will more than likely not work at the same time as deadly weapons or any other arti weapon buffs.

And if that's the case, it should be turned into a SLA feat for Paladins at level 14, similar to how AA Secondary Imbue Toggles. The changes to Holy Sword already turn it into a duration spell (where it's permanent now) and appears to remove the DR breaking. And so far the only DR breaking that paladins get now is via a captsone for one tree, and that capstone has never worked properly even when it has been working (which it hasn't for over 2 years).

[B0ltdrag0n]

Even if you ignore the +2 total crit range (which is available via other classes), simply knowing that those extra 9 Paladin levels will eventually give you +1 crit mult and 10% doublestrike make them a superior class, not a "mediocre" one.
.

If 14 becomes viable that is a good thing. However the spell is useful and dispellable, and again Im not convinced giving up the equivalent of 4 feats or Improved Evasion, (or other such goodies) are enough to worry about Paladins having one single bone thrown at them this entire update cycle.

Im convince no one will be happy until Holy Sword is 6 seconds per level and only gives +1 damage at this point.

[B0ltdrag0n]

(for some reason)

i can read quite well also thank you.

Thats called an aside. I know why the damage was added. That is me questioning the logic of the decision. Good job though let me know how much he's actually addressed the PRE as of this moment based on his revealed changes to melee power in the other thread.

By which I mean, you cannot do so, which is why I was asking -_-

[B0ltdrag0n]

Try casting Deadly Weapon + Insightful Strikes and see if that's really true.

Weapons can have only one enchantment that's castable by other people. Self-only weapon spells are separate from that.

That is not true. Insightful Strikes/Damage is a self buff not a weapon buff.

[FestusHood]

There seems to be the belief that a paladin, currently considered the absolute bottom of the barrel for melee dps, can simply receive +1 threat and +1 multiplier and suddenly become so powerful that no build can afford not to "splash" 14 levels of it. Is that really all there is to it?

Barbarian 18/ anything 2, single weapon fighting deathnip.

Critical rage, death frenzy.

Critical range 15-20 x 5. 13-20 x 5 in divine crusader. Crit power 24/32. This can be achieved on live right now, and it doesn't save barbarians, so clearly there are some other things to consider than just pure crit power.

Bard 3/ barbarian 5/ whatever 12, using foresters brush hook, single weapon fighting.

Swashbuckler, critical rage.

Critical range 11-20 x 4. 9-20 x4 in divine crusader. Crit power 30/36. Another build that can be made on live right now. Haven't finished leveling it yet, looks interesting on paper. Doubt it will make the world fly off it's axis however.

I post this as an adjunct to the argument that critical power is the single most ginchiest thing, and the only thing that defines whether a character is a horrible gimp or the most powerful build in the game.

[Scrabbler]

That is not true. Insightful Strikes/Damage is a self buff not a weapon buff.

By that logic, new-version Holy Sword is also a self buff and not a weapon buff.

Either way, incompatibility with Deadly Weapons is not a drawback for new-version Holy Sword.

[Delacroix21]

they should make it work with all martial, unarmed types and exotic type weapons, with a different bonus added to the +1w and sacred bonus.. unarmed should get a stacking "holy typed" die to their +*D* type monk atk bonus and such.. maybe different effects for slashing like a bleed like tick that does light dmg over time 1d8 or something tied to how many levels you have in a divine class etc etc for the other dmg types... but the main thing is make this effect work with all weapon types.. less pigeonholed builds and class specific stuff is good. moar customization and new builds are what we need, not less.

Agree.


I think people have just gotten used to things always being broken for hand wraps. I am sure people would put up a fuss if it said= works for every weapon in the game except greatswords. I think that is so crazy about divine disciple to, it literally works for every weapon in the game: all throwers, bows, crossbows, Melee, so why on earth wouldn't it work for handwraps.


The answer: they are coded differently and it requires more work to make it work with them.

But the answer we get: this is WAI as we said increase "weapons" crit range. (Ya, not buying it)


Let's look at thunder forge wraps then:
I guess if I wrapped my fists with magical straps that could dent steel (metaline), burned the targets on hit (touch of flames) enabled me to bypass their fortification and do extra damage on powerfull hits (dragons edge), caused a fiery explosion on powerfull hits with level drain (crippling flames), and also caused force explosions and acid explosions on hits (ruby eye of force/acid), wouldn't we call that a weapon? No I guess the guards would wave me through saying "he's unarmed!, this is WAI!"


Or my favorite ivy wraps= (leather straps covered in spikes dripping with poison)
I picture the same guards saying "hey old man with the walking stick, disarm immediately!" And to me: "Captain spikey hands, you may pass! And thanks for not bringing any WEAPONS in here!"

=)

[B0ltdrag0n]

By that logic, new-version Holy Sword is also a self buff and not a weapon buff.

Either way, incompatibility with Deadly Weapons is not a drawback for new-version Holy Sword.

No my logic does nto suggest such. I also do not think it should stack with Deadly Weapons...Mostly cause I dont want to be griefed by people casting something bad like Flaming Weapons on the guy either.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

If you want to enjoy the best critical profiles in the game, then yes, you are going to have to suffer through devoting at least 14 levels of your character to the best defensive melee class in the game (along with Monks), Paladins. You are going to have to suck it up and accept those high save bonuses, cure spells, and Lay on Hands uses, along with offensive bonuses like Divine Favor, and possibly Divine Might and Damage Boost along the way :/.

this is the important part ^^^^^^. a class with good built in defenses should not also have offensive ability that is equal to or better than the real dps classes (yea bard now but...thats just insanity and i refuse to acknowledge it...)

a swf barb with deathnip is not an overwhelmingly popular build despite a great critical profile because barbs are difficult to self heal, meaning the player has to make a choice between doing some great dps or being easy to keep up. paladins wont have to choose.

14 lvls of paladin wont keep you tight on feats either, as the prereqs for overwhelming critical are going to get dropped and kotc will gain cleaves that add more [w] than the cleaves that cost every other class feats.

on top of all that, this one ability is also going to add +2 hit/dmg and +1[w], essentially for free.

once again, on a pseudo healer tank melee. just wrong.

[oradafu]

14 lvls of paladin wont keep you tight on feats either, as the prereqs for overwhelming critical are going to get dropped and kotc will gain cleaves that add more [w] than the cleaves that cost every other class feats.

on top of all that, this one ability is also going to add +2 hit/dmg and +1[w], essentially for free.

once again, on a pseudo healer tank melee. just wrong.

Well, Acrobats do have a few Cleaves that does more damage than the feat, but they deserve it.

On the other hand, I didn't hear anyone complaining about Eldritch Knight gaining +1[w] and +2[w] Cleaves in their tree that cost no feats, and they're not melees.

Although not a Cleave, I believe I was the only person that complained that Warpriests gained +[w] melee attack with an unlimited 15 second cooldown and I was told that it was such a small amount of damage that I should shut up about it. And again, Warpriests are not really from a melee class and can heal and nuke better than a paladin.