Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[bbqzor]

Our goal is to make high level Paladins fun and competitive with other melee classes and builds

Changing holy sword to not stack does not accomplish this. Neither does adding a few d6 to the cores of one PRE tree which not every paladin will have. I say "few d6" because the gain from what they have currently on live is minimal (currently its 7d6 vs their chosen foe and 3d6 vs anything, with changes its 8d6 vs anything... a bump but minimal). The melee power scaling its touted to have, is also being touted as applying to all similar things over time (ie, rog sneak, assassin poison, etc). There is not a lot of gain there for taking 20 class levels, relative to taking those levels somewhere else... AND it forces paladins into a single enhancement tree. Less than ideal, let alone "fun and competitive".

As we iterate on the design, we see the the total changes from armor boosts, Knight of the Chalice cores and Paladin spells make higher level Paladins competitive and fun.

Hollow logic. Everyone benefits from all of those changes, minus the paladin specific ones.... which are only good to a single paladin enhancement line (one of three, assuming this shield one ever shows up). Making 1/3rd of paladins minimally more appealing, while everyone else gets an identical relative boost, does not add up to "total changes". It is exactly what it is, and nothing more: One Paladin tree gained a few d6 dmg.

The Holy Sword changes with a Competence bonus means that high level players have an alternate way to gain the critical boosts they need to be compete.

No, thats not what it means. It means that anyone seeking "the critical boosts they need to be compete" already has multiple, more easily accessible, ways to obtain it. No one is going to change what they are doing to sink 14 (!) paladin levels into obtaining it. They wont. Its too many levels with giving up too much over "getting a critical boost easier". I am not sure how much you have played DDO on the character building side, being a new dev from another game... but seriously. No ones blowing tons of hearts to reinvent the wheel with a cost of 14 levels. Wont happen.

If it isn't Competence we agree with player feedback that certain stacking combos pigeon-hole Paladins into very specific builds.

Again, hollow logic. 10k Stars pigeon-holes into very specific builds, better target that. Oh man Fury pigeon-holes into very specific builds. Oh Oh Oh and who could forget about Ninja Spys with Brush Hooks pigeon-holed into very specific builds. Or throwers, like the Meteor Shower build... oh man its using Tesners, total pigeon-hole.

Hi, welcome to building DDO characters. You find something you like, and build around it. The entire game is following that mentality. Trying to act like *no one* will use holy sword to stack with other things, *except* on some thief acrobat whatever... not true. If you dont like that one combo, simple... make Holy Sword only work on Martial Weapons. See what I did there? Pro tip, it didnt take nerfing the entire thing for all the actual paladins looking for a reason to sink more than 2-4 levels into their class. Just one idea, and there are many more Im sure (since some races get heavy mace as a religous weapon, who then couldnt use it.. just saying theres better ways than making it a trash bonus relative to multiclass options and those should be explored).

We post these changes early on the forums to get feedback. The points about Holy Sword were not only well discussed, but specific builds were presented that help us focus our examinations and testing internally and iterate on changes. That discussion is what we find compelling.

The fact the forums had to point out how it stacks, rather than you knowing what it would stack with and how, is saddening. It took posters here mere minutes to go down that road. If you suddenly looked and realized you didnt like that... why didnt it take you the same mere minutes, before hand. What you think we should be discussing, and what we think we should be discussing, are very different things. And that leads to frustration when you see statements made in one context, and leap to another. Your first instinct was right. All the "forum concern" over some build being too good is no different than people saying "SWF is too good" now. You know how many SWF there are, day to day, on Sarlona? Maybe 1 per raid. At a very rare occurrence, maybe 2. Sure, they are out there. But it hasnt overwhelmed the game. Neither will this. You arent actively listening, you are passively listening. Apply critical thinking, and examine how the game actually is. Hopefully the PC can help you with this, as I know you are new here.

We fully intend to take well reasoned player feedback into account as we iterate these changes, and we feel that many players find it valuable to participate in these discussions. If we post changes early that means we are looking for player feedback and fully intend to consider it.

Here is some discussion: this ability now does little, if anything, to shore up taking more paladin levels. As does KotC, since many paladins will not be in that tree. Indeed, all the other changes (armor, shields, melee power, etc) focus on helping "tank" paladins, who are likely to use Sacred Defender and "Vanguard". Given that the focus of the entire update is on making tank paladins more playable, what design goals are being implemented to ensure they also have reasons to take more levels in their class? As the spell and the few d6 from kotc do little to nothing when impacting their level progression choices. Additionally, as the enhancement tree received minimal new enhancements (cloned cleave abilities is really the only new thing, even the garbage Holy Retribution enhancement was left unchanged) what incentive is there for anyone to actually invest in this tree now? It offers literally nothing it didnt have before via other means (cleaves, competence to crit, some d6 vs certain mobs). Sure, its easier to access that stuff, sure it might have a couple more feats or whatever... but so what. Just taking Fighter instead (as one example) is even MORE feats. Taking Rogue (as one example) is even MORE d6s. Why go paladin kotc? There is no reason. Discuss all points.

I realize, however, that it is difficult when someone gets excited about early iterations of design and those designs change.

Its not about getting excited or not, its about being practical. A class's spell offering a bonus I can get elsewhere, boils down to which is cheaper to obtain (in this case, not paladin). A class's spell offering a stacking thing, means "how can I use combinations", boils down to cool character building. A PrE line offering minimal gains over what it gives now, when it is unpopular now, will remain unpopular. Look at bard, bard JUST happened. You can go read all the bard threads. It took more than adding "a few d6" to pull them together. They gained a tree, a rework of existing trees, and in several cases an extensive rework. Paladin is not receiving that level of attention. Trying to pawn off the "armor changes" as paladin centric is madness. You realize those are not paladin aimed changes right? Fighters, clerics... heck barbarians spending a feat for heavy armor prof... those all gain too. In many, perhaps most cases, gain even more because their saves are often less good than the paladin and mitigation is more important to them. Saying "paladins get half our attention because other stuff, which also helps everyone, counts as their half" is really just saying "paladins are still underwhelming". Its not about excitement. Its about being practical. You are adjusting your proposed changes in ways which are NOT practical. They dont help anyone, or address the actual level cost being undesirable due to low returns. Hence, not meeting your goal.

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Okay so what, it now wont conflict with "deadly weapons" directly? Its still nothing anyone else cant do. Take swash or TA or assassin or kensie or ninja spy or fb or etc etc etc.... get deadly weapons cast on you. Hey grats, you just gained 14 levels of paladin benefit. This does nothing, and its just trying to take the focus off the fact that the ability is now another clone ability. Just like the cleaves. Just like a few d6. Just like the entire class. Which was the whole point of sitting down to adjust it so the levels had meaning in the first place. Failure.

Dont make paladins a clone of other classes just so it competes with other classes (which, as Ive made an effort to point out here, it still wont).
Instead, make paladins unique, with a meaningful draw all their own.
Consider adding that to your goal-statement.

[Coldin]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

....I suppose that's a fair compromise for the limited stacking ability.


I do urge you to make sure that Holy Sword will be able to stack with Exalted Smite's crit threat/multiplier bonuses as well.

[Karadon_II]

Currently the boost in paladin power at level 14 really outshines everything left for the paladin to gain, and as such as a player I would feel like there's little to look forward to while leveling 15-20.

I echo this.

I think an ammendment to Champion of Good is the way to go. "Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction* and also gains a sacred** bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon".

*The first part will probably remain broken anyway, but maybe the second part will work
** Assuming Exalted Smite's bonus isn't sacred already

[Delacroix21]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

Sev can you also add=

Holy sword wont work with handwraps... this is WAI ------- People are going to ask if this works, you may as well give them this BS answer now -----

Celestial Champion wont work with handwraps... this is WAI

Momentum Swing wont work with handwraps... this is WAI

Lay Waste wont work with handwraps... this is WAI

Lightning Mace wont work with handwraps... this is WAI

Pulveriser wont work with handwraps... this is WAI

Shadow Mastery wont work with handwraps... this is WAI

Overwhelming Force only adds a 2 second knockdown with handwraps... this is WAI





OR just type=

We have no idea how to code handwraps... This is WAI

[Nodoze]

Sev,

Are you all also looking into making Divine Might more flexible so that we can have PDK Charisma based Paladins and "Dwarven Defender" Constitution Paladins that are at least semi-competitive?

It seems like more comments and requests in this thread have been about Paladin Divine Might than on HolySword or the other topics/issues.

If you make Divine Might a simple multi-selector you can get a "win-win" by not "breaking anything" and at the same thing not adding anything over-powered to the game.

Leaving one selection option as is allows all the current builds that rely on it to still work and gives a chance for tactics to work as is without having to change that entire portion of the game.

Adding a + damage selection would give other builds (Charisma/Con/Dex) a somewhat comparable boost as they get fair increase in damage but not an increase in their primary stat causing other un-intended consequences... For example this would keep unintended options like a Sorc18/2Paladin using Divine Might to increase their Charisma to boost spell DCs or what not...

Besides Strength builds still getting tactics when the other builds do not, strength builds would get additional increases as strength bonuses are increased depending on what kind of weapon you are using while a straight damage bonus would not be... Constitution/Charisma Paladins will still get less but that is offset by the other benefits they get by being able to focus on fewer stats and the benefits those stats give (more HP, higher saves, etc) that Strength does not give...

That would still leave standard strength based Paladins ahead but also allow diversity to be in the game without it totally gimping one's character relatively...

[Nodoze]

I echo this.

I think an ammendment to Champion of Good is the way to go. "Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction* and also gains a sacred** bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon".

*The first part will probably remain broken anyway, but maybe the second part will work
** Assuming Exalted Smite's bonus isn't sacred already

If this if it was a capstone ability only available at 20 with no splashing it certainly would encourage one to stay pure...

If they do get the good aligned to work I would like it be something you can toggle on/off so it doesn't break things like Celestia's ability to break DR...

[Delacroix21]

Anyone want to take bets if Holy Sword will effect handwraps? odds are 1 in 10 billion!


Do I have a right to be cynical and upset? Considering everything else that doesnt work with handwraps and the Devs flat out lie to us like we are stupid saying this is WAI when it really means "we cant figure out how to code this", Yes I would say I do have a right.

[PermaBanned]

Anyone want to take bets if Holy Sword will effect handwraps? odds are 1 in 10 billion!

Of course it will effect Handwraps - borked is an effect

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

...and break Celestia like Swashbuckler and non-deadly Arti buffs (and probably Druid wolf buffs, but I haven't had a chance to play with that/heard about it happening yet), right?

(Don't get me wrong. I appreciate it. It's just, Celestia is an awesome DR breaker that practically anyone can use... unless it gets broken by so many effects.)

[Flavilandile]

Anyone want to take bets if Holy Sword will effect handwraps? odds are 1 in 10 billion!


Do I have a right to be cynical and upset?

Why should it work with handwraps ? it's Holy Sword.

[Seikojin]

At the login screen for lamannia: open! open! open!

[PermaBanned]

Why should it work with handwraps ? it's Holy Sword.

o.O?

So Pallys shouldn't be able to "Holify" axes, or nice blunt skelly beaters either?

[Delacroix21]

Why should it work with handwraps ? it's Holy Sword.

Ya your right, why should anything work with hand wraps? Did you read my list of everything that increases crit range for everything but hand wraps?


Heck! Divine crusader even effects bows and throwers but not hand wraps, and Pulverizer effects bows with blunted ammo or morphic arrows and sireth that does no blunt damage yet still not hand wraps!


So why not this too!

[the_one_dwarfforged]

please ignore anyone saying holy sword needs to stack, even if it doesnt it is a huge buff to both dps and tank pallies since its a spell and not an enhancement. if we compare the non stacking version to other dps classes:

paladin 20:
good inherent survivability / heals
holy sword = +2 hit/dmg, +1[w], +1 crit range, +1 crit multi

barbarian 20:
weak inherent survivability
frenzy tier 5+ death frenzy: +3 crit multi on 19-20,
or
ravager tier 5: +2 crit range

fighter 20:
weak inherent survivability
keen edge: +1 crit range

ranger 20:
good inherent survivability / heals
ranged option
no critical profile enhancing spells or enhancements

when you look at it that way, why exactly would holy sword need to stack with anything? and ill reiterate i think its too strong for a class that trades dealing damage for being more self sufficient, and is a lazy and unoriginal way to buff a class. if paladins get this, kenseis, frenzies, ravagers, and tempests better get some vip treatment. here is a thought, give fighters heal amp enhancements and healing spells, and allow sla s to work while raged so anyone who is willing to shell out can make a self healing bladeforged barb. since every class must be able to dps and self heal, this is what has to be done.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

while were at it if you want to incentivise taking more than just a couple levels of paladin, dont make divine might so easy to get, and it would encourage build diversity if it werent a str bonus, but a damage bonus. like it used to be. if that means re tweaking the entire stunning blow formula so that people can stun without having to force the modern divine might on them, id call that a good thing.

[Qhualor]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Holy_Sword

it says any melee weapon so handwraps should fall under melee weapons.

however not sure if this still applies in DDO

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Melee_Weapon

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Melee_Attack#Melee_Attacks

[Qualron]

If it said "Melee weapons currently equipped" am pretty sure that it implies that only melee weapons and not unarmed or range weapons would gain its effect.



Divine Sacrifice is still technically the same, the only difference is that it's Light damage part will scale by 100 Melee Power.

(Did anyone here actually read any of Sev's other Armor Up threads BEFORE posting your thoughts here? Just wondering.)

I would like to think Hand wraps would be classed as melee for the sake of Holy sword, after all we are talking balance and some classes and styles get left behind, and there are a good few Paladin monks running around that could benefit.

[Akristorn]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Holy_Sword

it says any melee weapon so handwraps should fall under melee weapons.

however not sure if this still applies in DDO

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Melee_Weapon

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Melee_Attack#Melee_Attacks

they should make it work with all martial, unarmed types and exotic type weapons, with a different bonus added to the +1w and sacred bonus.. unarmed should get a stacking "holy typed" die to their +*D* type monk atk bonus and such.. maybe different effects for slashing like a bleed like tick that does light dmg over time 1d8 or something tied to how many levels you have in a divine class etc etc for the other dmg types... but the main thing is make this effect work with all weapon types.. less pigeonholed builds and class specific stuff is good. moar customization and new builds are what we need, not less.

[jakeelala]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

As an early agitator to change this to Competence, I have to say I' am slightly saddened by this, only because there were EXCELLENT thrower multi class-builds that would have taken 14 Paladin levels for this, along with Halfling to just utterly obliterate all other thrower builds. Alas, I will not get to make those builds now, or if I do they will be missing 1 crit threat range. I can live with that. It's still very compelling, since it comes with +2 Enchantment, +1[W], and 1 Threat range and 1 Threat Multiplier. Is it worth 14 levels of Pally? Not sure really, can't think of any other way to get that boost besides going 20 Monk for Ninja Master. So probably still a good build choice.

I would say this, there are complaints that there are no real incentives to go past 14 Pally, though I believe that was true before even when this was a stacking ability bonus. I think instead of a blanket +1[W], this needs to be .5[W]/5 Paladin levels. Nothing wrong with a Pure Pally getting +2[W] from Holy Sword, they need all the help they can get.

My argument to make it Competence was actually about build diversity as well as allowing Pure paladins a chance (though personally I have no interest in that, I've never had a single pure class character in this game). I think Paladins shouldn't get their best bonus at 14 and just have nothing to look forward to. Just a suggestion.

I find it Hilarious that people like bbqzor are making fallacious arguments that other classes have easier to obtain and equivalent abilities. I'm sorry, but I am unaware of any class that in 14 levels can receive +1 Threat and +1 Multiplier to ANY weapon they equip. I say that with a caveat: this spell really needs to apply to Handwraps, Melee Weapons, Bows, and Thrown weapons. If it doesn't, it will be a really big miss for multiclass possibilities, just like making MB in LD not work with Ranged/Throwing. Balancing power is not the same thing as eliminating multiclassing possibilities, which I think Sev agrees with.

The only other ability available in 14 levels that even comes close to this one (multiplier AND threat range) is Swashbuckler, which requires a hard to multiclass alignment (non-Lawful/Bard), specific weapon types, and has stance restrictions. So your criticism is pretty poorly placed there, bbqzor which I was surprised by, you're usually pretty spot on. I also think you're being unnecessarily rude to Severlin attacking him for being new to DDO. He posted A HUGE amount of info early on that most devs DO NOT DO, in order to get feedback, and probably personally because some things he knows he still does not know. Suggesting he was somehow less-than for learning things from us on the forum is at best short-sighted and worst flat out trolling.

Learning from us is the ENTIRE point of this thread.

Where exactly can you get the same bonus this spell offers outside of this spell in 14 levels of a class or less, and/or not requiring a Tier 5 Enhancement sacrifice? Give me a break man.

[jakeelala]

No, thats not what it means. It means that anyone seeking "the critical boosts they need to be compete" already has multiple, more easily accessible, ways to obtain it. No one is going to change what they are doing to sink 14 (!) paladin levels into obtaining it.

Oh really? Where can you get that? And I already have thrower builds in mind if it works with throwers.

Again, hollow logic. 10k Stars pigeon-holes into very specific builds, better target that. Oh man Fury pigeon-holes into very specific builds. Oh Oh Oh and who could forget about Ninja Spys with Brush Hooks pigeon-holed into very specific builds. Or throwers, like the Meteor Shower build... oh man its using Tesners, total pigeon-hole.

Huh? You mentioned my build I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Actually, with available sources of Doubleshot, even though people don't do it, you could go Manyshot/Doubleshot ranged without 10k. Unfortunately, it would be a lot more possible if devs would just get rid of or shorten that terrible Doubleshot cooldown on Manyshot. Also, throwers aren't pigeonholed by Tensers, it's just a strong build consideration. That's not comparable to +1 Crit Threat and Multi that stacks with other forms and it's a Tier 5. That's actually a real pigeon hole where no other build choice would make sense for a number of builds.

Hi, welcome to building DDO characters. You find something you like, and build around it. The entire game is following that mentality. Trying to act like *no one* will use holy sword to stack with other things, *except* on some thief acrobat whatever... not true. If you dont like that one combo, simple... make Holy Sword only work on Martial Weapons. See what I did there?

I see what you did there, you tried to rationalize what you want for the game as though it were somehow an issue of crucial balance. What you really did there was try to massively limit the reach and usefulness Holy Sword changes so that only a very few builds, which would have to be multi classed for the Competence/not-Competence part to really matter anyway since Paladin doesn't have other Competence critical mods. Not cool, bro.

The fact the forums had to point out how it stacks, rather than you knowing what it would stack with and how, is saddening. It took posters here mere minutes to go down that road.

Not cool, bro. These threads are for our edification, and his (or her I have no idea what Sev's gender is).

Here is some discussion: this ability now does little, if anything, to shore up taking more paladin levels.

This is by far your most valuable piece of criticism in this post in regards to changes to Holy Sword. I will mention however, that this was already a problem, stacking or not. All of a sudden at 14 BOOM! this spell rocks, and never gets better except Duration (which really should be like 1min/level, or semi-permanent like log out or rest). I agree, it needs to improve with Paladin levels, for sure. And it should go ABOVE 20 since ED's give Paladin caster levels (I think). I think every 5 Levels it needs to get .5[W] and something else. At 5, it needs to get maybe (2d6) Evil Bane added. At level 10, Banishing. At Level 15, +5% Stacking Alacrity, at lvl 20, Improved Banishing, and at level 25, another 5-10% Stacking Alacrity.

If this is meant to make Paladins attractive, make it more attractive as your Paladin-ness increases, but not all or nothing like a Capstone, which I freakin' hate.