Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Karadon_II]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

OK, but now make the Champion of Good enhancement change the bonus type to something that does stack. Or add an "Improved Holy Sword" SLA.

[maddong]

Even with zero more changes (defender/vanguard haven't been shone) I am ready to play a melee paladin.

[Severlin]

Our goal is to make high level Paladins fun and competitive with other melee classes and builds. As we iterate on the design, we see the the total changes from armor boosts, Knight of the Chalice cores and Paladin spells make higher level Paladins competitive and fun. The Holy Sword changes with a Competence bonus means that high level players have an alternate way to gain the critical boosts they need to be compete.

If it isn't Competence we agree with player feedback that certain stacking combos pigeon-hole Paladins into very specific builds.

Sev~

[Xaxx]

dang it somehow managed to double???

[Xaxx]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

so you admitted earlier you figured changing it to that would make it quote "meh" and now here it is....

umm what was the point of your announcements when all your doing is listening to the people on here going waaaaaah blitz waaaah before even putting this stuff to lama???

To think I was actually KIND of excited that paladins might be useful again for the first time in... 6 years?

[janave]

Even with zero more changes (defender/vanguard haven't been shone) I am ready to play a melee paladin.

Vanguard is better be !%+!%+!5 good . With enough AP spreads to get some synergies with the other trees and so a non multiclass build can be viable and all sorts of awesome.

I think other than the mental case factory Blitz, LD is a very fun destiny, would love to see the heroic/holified version of momentum swing, and lay waste. Especially coming to vanguard so my Fighter can benefit from it too.

[Seikojin]

Minor thing: You have the description priority swapped there. The "also increase crits" is the important part, and we couldn't care less about +2 enhancement (it could be -2 and we'd still use the spell).

Major thing: You need to really spell out how this spell stacks, both with other spells castable on weapons and with every other effect that can raise crit profile.

Notice that Holy Sword comes at Paladin level 14, while many other classes get boost to crit profile in tier 5 (which is class level 5)... use caution around builds like Pal14/Rog6 and so forth (if they were allowed to stack crit improvements to huge levels)


That's a strange wording. Virtually every undead (except 1-2 named exceptions) is evil.

It's not clear if "evil and undead creatures" means:
Things that are evil undead.
Monsters with an evil alignment, or that are undead.
Monsters which are Evil Outsider type, or undead.

So +5 range and x10 multiplier is bad?

[Severlin]

so you admitted earlier you figured changing it to that would make it quote "meh" and now here it is....

umm what was the point of your announcements when all your doing is listening to the people on here going waaaaaah blitz waaaah before even putting this stuff to lama???

To think I was actually KIND of excited that paladins might be useful again for the first time in... 6 years?

We post these changes early on the forums to get feedback. The points about Holy Sword were not only well discussed, but specific builds were presented that help us focus our examinations and testing internally and iterate on changes. That discussion is what we find compelling. We fully intend to take well reasoned player feedback into account as we iterate these changes, and we feel that many players find it valuable to participate in these discussions. If we post changes early that means we are looking for player feedback and fully intend to consider it.

I realize, however, that it is difficult when someone gets excited about early iterations of design and those designs change.

Sev~

[Coldin]

Our goal is to make high level Paladins fun and competitive with other melee classes and builds. As we iterate on the design, we see the the total changes from armor boosts, Knight of the Chalice cores and Paladin spells make higher level Paladins competitive and fun. The Holy Sword changes with a Competence bonus means that high level players have an alternate way to gain the critical boosts they need to be compete.

If it isn't Competence we agree with player feedback that certain stacking combos pigeon-hole Paladins into very specific builds.

Sev~

Do you think the Knight of the Chalice cores are still competitive into Epic levels despite the reduced Melee Power present there? Since the majority of the Light Damage's power comes from it's ability to scale with MP, a reduction in that will lead to a reduction in that light damage as well.

All the change to Competence for holy sword does is let people with other builds go "Eh, I don't need that since I have this instead." It may reduce the amount of strange 14/6 builds, but I'm not really sure why that was a problem in the first place. We already have very strange builds right not from Bard Swashbuckler.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

We post these changes early on the forums to get feedback. The points about Holy Sword were not only well discussed, but specific builds were presented that help us focus our examinations and testing internally and iterate on changes. That discussion is what we find compelling. We fully intend to take well reasoned player feedback into account as we iterate these changes, and we feel that many players find it valuable to participate in these discussions. If we post changes early that means we are looking for player feedback and fully intend to consider it.

I realize, however, that it is difficult when someone gets excited about early iterations of design and those designs change.

Sev~

Easy solution, +1 range/multi that is a competence bonus and another +1 range OR multi *you guys decide* that isn't competence so that way we can play build X and still get boost but pure pally will still be at the same or ahead, maybe add to the pally capstone the earlier holy sword ability

[Severlin]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

[CaptainSpacePony]

We post these changes early on the forums to get feedback. The points about Holy Sword were not only well discussed, but specific builds were presented that help us focus our examinations and testing internally and iterate on changes. That discussion is what we find compelling. We fully intend to take well reasoned player feedback into account as we iterate these changes, and we feel that many players find it valuable to participate in these discussions. If we post changes early that means we are looking for player feedback and fully intend to consider it.

I realize, however, that it is difficult when someone gets excited about early iterations of design and those designs change.

Sev~

And I commend you for it!

After ruminating on it a bit, I think HS had to be competence, which does make it "meh" and won't make everyone run out to roll Paladins, but at least it gives concentrated Paladins a way to improve their crit profile. That being said, since holy sword is not going to be the holy grail for paladins, I'm anxious to see what else will be in store for them.

Still waiting on that paladin war priest tree.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

Well, didn't see this before posting my last reply. Holy Sword is back to "Whoa", but in a more gooder way. It is now crit profile, + deadly wpns, +enchant wpnx2.
This should count as a wpn enchantment and not work w/deadly wpns etc.

[Comp.preacher]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

This is great news. This change makes pure paladin very competitive without making it so easily exploitable. Splashes can still work quite well, however they will not totally outclass the pure paladin in abilities.

I just want to say that I really appreciate the quick testing, decision, and communication back to the player base Sev. This has greatly impressed me and I really appreciate you listening to our feedback.

Very happy about this; really well done.

Comp. out.

[fearlesswolf]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

I like this...I like this a lot

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

i enjoy this and disregard previous post of mine

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Thanks for the update! A little disappointed about the competence bonus, but I understand.

I like the +1[w] bonus!

Still looking forward to dualwielding +8 5[1d10] 13-20/x3 oathblades! (with a static 30% doublestrike :P)


Keep up the good work!

[Enoach]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

I will say that I am disappointed that it went from Holy to Competence. I do understand why as it prevents specific builds from becoming dominate.

So if I understand correctly Holy Sword spell will know buff the current weapon as follows:

+2 Holy bonus to enhancement value
+1[W] base damage
+1 Competent bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon.

I'm still not clear if this is considered a personal weapon buff like Artificer Insightful Damage Spell or will need to compete with other weapon buffs.

[TankerWade]

My Paladin had a crisis of Faith at lvl 19. He questioned his God with a "what's the point" moment as other adventurers, in bathrobes and longbows ran past him. He put down his Bastard sword and shield and stopped questing. He tried to come to terms with the notion that in the game whose legacy basically created him had now labeled him with the cruelest of an adventurers title - Sub-Optimal.

But today I logged in and noticed his windows lie open and unshuttered. He seemed to be dusting off his armor, a determined look on his face. I am not sure, but he may have even gotten a haircut. Perhaps it is time again...


Maudlin and sappy stories aside, please continue the good fight Severlin and all the other Devs working on this. The changes, the reiterations and the feedback are greatly appreciated by those of us who would love to see this play style come back.

[Comp.preacher]

Updated the OP: Holy Sword will also add +1[W] to the weapons it enchants.

Sev~

This is an interesting addition. I think this may be best to add later on in enhancements instead of directly adding it onto the existing bonuses of holy sword. In other words, adding +1[w] with all weapons to the lvl 18 core or capstone of the two current Paladin trees or possibly just at paladin lvl 18. Currently the boost in paladin power at level 14 really outshines everything left for the paladin to gain, and as such as a player I would feel like there's little to look forward to while leveling 15-20. This would also give pure/lightly splashed paladins a further boost, although that's probably not completely necessary now that the crit bonuses are non stacking.

As a side question: Is this to help keep competitive base damage compared to centered fighters using a dance with flowers?

Comp.out.