Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Nodoze]

It just seems such a waste for Charisma based PDK Paladins and Constitution based Dwarven Paladins to not be able to benefit from Divine Might...

Please change Divine Might back to being a straight damage modifier or make DM able to increase other primary stats besides Strength or something else than the way it is currently...

"Multi-selector Divine Might" allowing strength or +damage seems the most balanced/flexible and gives less opportunity to abuse mechanics from inflating one's primary stat. Should make everyone happy...

[BDog77]

I agree with many sentiments above

Leave Divine might the way it is (reduce its cost to 1 ap per rank though)
Leave Holy Sword the way it is. If it makes a small handful of things viable or alternative but still within a reasonable DPS amount then it is a good change. That is all it does.

Oh, actually, make Divine might a Divine bonus, or Holy bonus please, I wanna be able to use the insight items everyone else gets to. Thanks.

[oradafu]

Oh, actually, make Divine might a Divine bonus, or Holy bonus please, I wanna be able to use the insight items everyone else gets to. Thanks.

If Divine Might is staying as a STR booster, the Devs can go back to my original suggestion when Greater Sacred Defense became a Sacred bonus and Divine Might became an Insight bonus. My suggestion was to make Greater Sacred Defense a Morale bonus and Divine Might a Sacred bonus. Since Greater Sacred Defense doesn't stack with the Rage spell (which is a Morale bonus) and Paladin's can't multiclass with Bards, nothing is lost for Paladins and they gain back the bonuses from items with Insight (since Paladins need those bonuses for tactics, which was the reason Divine Might was changed to begin with, or so the Devs claim).

The Devs never stated why doing the above is a bad idea, which clearly makes more sense, especially for Paladins as a class and not a splash.

[Monkey_Archer]

With the reduction in epic melee power from 150 to 75, it might be worth it to consider raising the KOTC light damage ratio from 100% to 150%. Hard to tell without testing though.

[Nascoe]

What's the result of these Paladin changes, in a simple example?

Suppose we're in the heroic levels, 15-19 somewhere, and fighting monsters one at a time. No resource-limited burst DPS, no tripping / stunning tricks... just swinging a nice two-hander until they die. To handicap the Paladin, suppose the enemies are non-evil. Which pure class does more melee damage?

• Fighter: 13-20 x3, doublestrike 2% or 3%
• Paladin: 13-20 x4, doublestrike 10%
• Barbarian: 11-20 x3, stronger glances

My guess is that the Paladin is better at this task... which probably isn't how it should be.


PS. For fun, we could consider a Bard as well, although that's less direct because they don't use two-hander. Bard (with imperfect weapon) would be 15-20 x4, +30% swing speed, doublestrike 13% to 20%, more strength mod, less PA and Meleepower.

Hm, looks like Paladins are suddenly way on top (or were you saying the bard?). But I would guess the average Paladin would still have less STR than the fighter and Barbarian as they need to have some investment in CHA and WIS to be able to use those spells. Off course in reality it will be about finding an optimized lvl split between fighter and Paladin or other splashes into that.

As for the Bard, you completely neglect that the base damage for those swashbuckler weapons is far lower than for the 2 handers you mention, which somewhat lowers its potential compared to the fighter and barbarian. It still does very decent damage, but not as much more as just looking at critical range and multiplier would suggest.

[Comp.preacher]

Let me say, flatly, NO to competence. NO NO NO. The game does not need something granted to paladins at lv14, which does NOT stack with many other things, which simply mirrors what other classes can do much earlier (via enhancements). This does nothing to reward making a deeper investment into Paladin.

Furthermore....

I don't see much of an issue with making it a competence bonus since there are only a handful of things that it could actually stack with otherwise. A potential paladin splash itself is essentially only shut out of expanding knifes or quarterstaffs, both of which are arguably quite powerful even with just the bonuses granted from the tier 5 enhancements of their respective trees. Assuming the paladin wants to use any other weapon besides these two types, the only other buff it would shut out would be pulverizer from LD.

From a balance standpoint, I think knifes and most bludgeoning weapons are fine even with the increased crit profiles possibly afforded by the new holy sword stacking crit profile. The problem in my mind only comes from Thief acrobats. Currently a TA rogue splash build, such as the popular "Zeus" build, can easily compete or out perform most competitors thanks to the stacking attack speed, double strike and enhanced crit profile given by the TA tree. If given access to ANOTHER source of +threat and multiplier I feel that it would really outclass other types of melee in a significant way. Sireth with these bonuses in the DC ED would crit 60% of the time for X4 damage, while attacking 15 percent faster than any other Two hander. It would be very difficult for a paladin with a Falchion to compete with a weapon like that.

Outside of that, I could see it being kept stacking but split into two parts, with the increased threat range given at paladin 14, and the multiplier given when Paladin level is at 16/17/18. This would encourage larger splashes without making it impossible to benefit from other classes Tier 5 enhancements, while also limiting builds that would become too powerful if given access to an additional multiplier. This would also have the added benefit of allowing a smoother progression of power while leveling instead of having it all immediately granted at 14. Finally this would allow those acrobat builds to still benefit from high paladin splashes, but not to the extent to which they would completely outclass everything. (60% X3 vs x4).

In any case, I'd like to hear what you think.

Comp. out.

[Monkey_Archer]

I don't see much of an issue with making it a competence bonus since there are only a handful of things that it could actually stack with otherwise. A potential paladin splash itself is essentially only shut out of expanding knifes or quarterstaffs, both of which are arguably quite powerful even with just the bonuses granted from the tier 5 enhancements of their respective trees. Assuming the paladin wants to use any other weapon besides these two types, the only other buff it would shut out would be pulverizer from LD.

From a balance standpoint, I think knifes and most bludgeoning weapons are fine even with the increased crit profiles possibly afforded by the new holy sword stacking crit profile. The problem in my mind only comes from Thief acrobats. Currently a TA rogue splash build, such as the popular "Zeus" build, can easily compete or out perform most competitors thanks to the stacking attack speed, double strike and enhanced crit profile given by the TA tree. If given access to ANOTHER source of +threat and multiplier I feel that it would really outclass other types of melee in a significant way. Sireth with these bonuses in the DC ED would crit 60% of the time for X4 damage, while attacking 15 percent faster than any other Two hander. It would be very difficult for a paladin with a Falchion to compete with a weapon like that.

Honestly, I don't really care which way it gets typed. But it might just be better to make it competence, if only so the "Nerf this" vs "Don't nerf me" threads don't even have a chance to get started...

[FlaviusMaximus]

I'll say this about the Holy Sword Competence bonus thing;

If the spell goes live as a stacking bonus, none of you get to make up a name for the obvious 14 Paladin/5 Rogue/1 Monk Bladeforged staff build and try to claim ownership over it. You may, however, join parties completely made up of characters that use this build or ones almost identical to it, because that is literally all that is going to be running around Stormreach.

I'm not saying Holy Sword should or should not be a competence bonus. The spell is ridiculously powerful either way. It's too strong. It will at least double the crit power of any weapon it affects. This is not a hypothetical or an estimate, it will.

Holy Sword shouldn't be giving both a + multiplier and a range expander. Monster buffs like that are usually reserved for formerly gimpy weapons like quarterstaff and some of the underpowered weapon types on the Swashbuckler list, but this spell is going to affect things like Khopeshes, Falchions, and Heavy Picks.

So yeah, if it stacks with T5 Acrobat or Henshin that's obviously going to be silly since it will be at least doubling the crit power of the two handed weapon type (quarterstaff) that in T5 Henhin or Acrobat currently enjoys the best two handed crit profile in the game (looking at Thunderforged weapons here, not any dated named weapons like the eSoS), but it wont be that much sillier than what it will do to every other weapon.

[Monkey_Archer]

If the spell goes live as a stacking bonus, none of you get to make up a name for the obvious 14 Paladin/5 Rogue/1 Monk Bladeforged build and try to claim ownership over it.

I think it should be called the Severlin, in honor of its real creator

[Gljosh]

I remember (b4 Motu) Elite Shroud was a nightmare to run, but people did it for the challenge. Elite gameplay required three big things; gear, build, and player skill. Currently I am steam rolling eh content (no pots or hires) with a nice caster build with decent gear and I normally play melee. So I have pretty much one out of those three and I can EE with this build it just takes more time. These changes remind me of the Combat Pass that happened in SWG, PCs got buffed and everything became soloable (Rancors, Nightsisters, Krayt Dragons, Force Wielders, etc.). PCs farmed everything small groups would curb stomp Dathomir, end game areas became Polly Princess Tea Parties. I can agree with a boost to Melee, more tied to the ED then the Epic Level, or tie it to the combat style feats. But don't add it to the weapons! This will kill CitW, FoT, MA, LOB, and both new dragon raids.

[toapat]

With the reduction in epic melee power from 150 to 75, it might be worth it to consider raising the KOTC light damage ratio from 100% to 150%. Hard to tell without testing though.

i think it should goto 200%, it was intended for paladins to get an easy 20d6 light damage at 28.

[Karadon_II]

I vote to leave it as stacking. Why? Development history shows us paladins are usually the first to get buffed in sweeping changes, but because they are first there is some reservation and people tend to cry out that it may be too much. Devs then think 'Hey! Paladins are fixed enough, off the list of things they go!" Then shortly after everyone else gets buffed too and it is ever so slightly better than paladin (or distinctly better!) because people have gotten used to the 'new thing'. Paladins then are suddenly back to one of the least powerful classes again and there is a long gap before the dev cycle comes back around.

I concur with this. We've seen many improvements since the level cap was 10. Paladins get something great, but it's soon overshadowed by later changes to Barbarians & Fighters etc.

Will the changes discussed make Paladins 'uber' and a 'flavour of the month'? Sure, but before long there'll be a similar pass on the other classes and Paladins will once again be relegated to middle if not lower ground by comparison. It suites me fine if the class is sidelined by the min-maxers but so long as Paladins retain their new found viability as a choice for more people to play and so contribute to the diversity of characters in a group overall then I'm happy with that.

Oh, actually, make Divine might a Divine bonus, or Holy bonus please, I wanna be able to use the insight items everyone else gets to. Thanks.

Agreed. The insight bonus nerf to DM was because Sacred Defender used Scred Bonuses to STR. It makes DM fine for Heroic but has reduced effectiveness in Epics.

The dev response to calls for a more stackable bonus was either dismissive "you'll find some other useful gear for the slot you free up no longer needing insightful strength" [paraphrased] or left the door open with "it will stay an insight for now but will remain open for change in the future." Well now is the future from back then and with the changes to everrything here it's the perfect time to correct the "insight oversight". Hell even if it's returned to a straight damage modifier that'll keep most happy I reckon.

[ddorimble]

I concur with this. We've seen many improvements since the level cap was 10. Paladins get something great, but it's soon overshadowed by later changes to Barbarians & Fighters etc.

Will the changes discussed make Paladins 'uber' and a 'flavour of the month'? Sure, but before long there'll be a similar pass on the other classes and Paladins will once again be relegated to middle if not lower ground by comparison. It suites me fine if the class is sidelined by the min-maxers but so long as Paladins retain their new found viability as a choice for more people to play and so contribute to the diversity of characters in a group overall then I'm happy with that.

Agreed. Really **** hard to give good balance feedback without knowing what is in store for other PrEs. I'm taking the new Bard redesigns as the general 'new way' of doing things, so am mostly making comparisons there, rather than to the now 'old' PrEs--and certainly not making any comparisons to Barbarian, they're just a hot mess.

Quite frankly, Bard really kicked it up a notch, and so I'm expecting the same feeling here. I'm expecting that same feeling as all PrEs get their turn in the spotlight.

To toss another idea into the tempestuous brainstorm, maybe the base Holy Sword spell could do less (either multiplier or threat range), and Level 18 KoTC and DoS innate grants Improved Holy Sword that then also adds the other bonus--basically a new nearly identical spell 'You add Improved Holy Sword to your Paladin spell list as a Level 4 spell'.

[Comp.preacher]

I concur with this. We've seen many improvements since the level cap was 10. Paladins get something great, but it's soon overshadowed by later changes to Barbarians & Fighters etc.

Will the changes discussed make Paladins 'uber' and a 'flavour of the month'? Sure, but before long there'll be a similar pass on the other classes and Paladins will once again be relegated to middle if not lower ground by comparison. It suites me fine if the class is sidelined by the min-maxers but so long as Paladins retain their new found viability as a choice for more people to play and so contribute to the diversity of characters in a group overall then I'm happy with that.

I agree that this as a stacking bonus will make paladins attractive as a class again. However, I feel like if this gets passed onto live as is, it doesn't really give any incentive to get more than 14/15 levels in paladin at all. One of the largest successes of the bard pass was that it allowed attractive options for both splashes and pure builds. This pass would leave a massive power gap between those combining this spell with other critical expanding effects, and those staying just plain paladin. I want there to be tradeoffs to deciding to splash a class, and with this implementation the trade offs offered are very very minor compared to what is offered in something like Thief acrobats Tier 5.

To summarize: I want people to have to make tough interesting choices when deciding to splash, and if possible I'd like to preserve some semblance of balance of power between pure builds and splash builds. Letting it stack or letting it occur all at paladin level 14/15 will not have these desired outcomes.

Also: if this does go to live as is, I vote for Severlin as the build name as Monkey_Archer suggested :P

Comp. Out.

[Karadon_II]

I agree that this as a stacking bonus will make paladins attractive as a class again. However, I feel like if this gets passed onto live as is, it doesn't really give any incentive to get more than 14/15 levels in paladin at all.

*Scratches beard*

What if the base Holy Sword Spell didn't stack, but then something could be added to the Champion of Good that would allow it stack?

[Nodoze]

Maybe they should add something enticing at T5 for the Paladin Trees &/or at the Core4/5 capstone that makes being pure not relatively gimp. Personally I and others may go pure for flavor or RP reasons anyway but it would be nice to at least be competitive.

[Severlin]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

[bennyson]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

*Jaw drops to floor*

[bbqzor]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

What the heck man. You are not assisting in making more paladin class levels appealing. That was the original design goal. You are pseudo buffing one enhancement tree, in a way more lateral than vertical.

Revert it, or tell us what the actual goal is now. Because the last goal stated doesnt make sense with the changes being made.

Not sure what else to say. Your actions speak louder than words, and with no reasoning or examples given we are left to simply stare at those actions in disbelief. It defies logic. It is disheartening. Just leave the game alone. Thats my feedback on your changes. Stop.

[Coldin]

Update: Changed Holy Sword so the bonus to threat range and critical multiplier is Competence.

Sev~

Great....




Edit: I'm so glad all the paladin buffs are being marginalized back into nothing special.