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  1. #321
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    I really don't like the Divine Might talk here. I think it should be changed to match existing divine might for warpriest and put as a tier 1 ability, like warpriest. Make it anti-req so you can't take it twice; even though they won't stack.

    Swap Divine Might with Divine Light. It will hurt the 1 splash pali's however those typically aren't speccing for light damage anyways.

    The bigger thing; get these changes on lam please. Asap.

  2. #322
    Hero Recared's Avatar
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    Default Severlin's Divine Might comment

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post



    We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

    Sev~
    How about making it a multichoice selection enhancement? -> Option 1: Adds charisma bonus to strength as insight bonus. Option 2: Adds half cha bonus to damage.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuKaSu View Post
    How about both, then? half of Cha bonus to damage and tactics? Strength builds don't lose out, and dex and alternate-stat weapon-users get a nice buff.
    I may have missed a previous post,
    Is the light damage from paladin core effected by both light and melee power?
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  4. #324
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forul View Post
    I may have missed a previous post,
    Is the light damage from paladin core effected by both light and melee power?
    No

    The Light damage from paladin cores are only affected by Melee Power.

  5. #325
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.
    This is the main reason I have paladin levels... Divine Might for tactics DCs... The extra damage is nice, and the saves are good too, but my Reflex save was pretty good when I had monk levels too.

    This change indeed would make me TR again... which would make sad, since I take so long to TR, and I was just starting to focus on eTRing again.

    For reference, I went from a 8/6/6 fighter/ranger/monk build with Kensai Centering and ninja spy 25% incorp... to a 12/4/4 ranger/fighter/paladin. Basically to get my STR high enough so my stunning blow would work in Epic Elite.

    But I understand that a change to Divine Might might be necessary since STR stat inflation is out of control.

    Since you recognize the tactics DC issue, perhaps you could lower the mobs saves across the board slightly when you make this Divine Might change?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  6. #326
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is the main reason I have paladin levels... Divine Might for tactics DCs... The extra damage is nice, and the saves are good too, but my Reflex save was pretty good when I had monk levels too.

    This change indeed would make me TR again... which would make sad, since I take so long to TR, and I was just starting to focus on eTRing again.

    For reference, I went from a 8/6/6 fighter/ranger/monk build with Kensai Centering and ninja spy 25% incorp... to a 12/4/4 ranger/fighter/paladin. Basically to get my STR high enough so my stunning blow would work in Epic Elite.

    But I understand that a change to Divine Might might be necessary since STR stat inflation is out of control.

    Since you recognize the tactics DC issue, perhaps you could lower the mobs saves across the board slightly when you make this Divine Might change?
    That would be a crazy buff to instakillers.

    I like the suggestion of making stunning blow scale with level as stunning fist does, and while we're at it trip, sap and sunder should too.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Since you recognize the tactics DC issue, perhaps you could lower the mobs saves across the board slightly when you make this Divine Might change?
    Stunning fist is fine, Instakill DCs are now fine, you lower saves and it's Pale Master in God mode.

    The Stunning Blow formula needs to be redone, and cut the cooldown while you're at it.

  8. #328
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Stunning fist is fine, Instakill DCs are now fine, you lower saves and it's Pale Master in God mode.

    The Stunning Blow formula needs to be redone, and cut the cooldown while you're at it.
    What are the formulas for tactical feats? They are all str based yes? How would you change them?
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  9. #329
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    What are the formulas for tactical feats? They are all str based yes? How would you change them?
    Old Formula: DC 10 + STR mod

    New Formula (how I would fix it) DC 10 + STR mod + Total Character levels.
    Last edited by bennyson; 07-31-2014 at 04:51 PM.

  10. #330
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Stunning fist is fine, Instakill DCs are now fine, you lower saves and it's Pale Master in God mode.

    The Stunning Blow formula needs to be redone, and cut the cooldown while you're at it.
    Good points... Let's change the SB and Trip formulas please, and the STR component can be removed from Divine Might.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  11. #331
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Old Formula: DC 10 + STR mod

    New Formula (how I would fix it) DC 10 + STR mod + Total Character levels.
    heh, +28 to stun?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  12. #332
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Old Formula: DC 10 + STR mod

    New Formula (how I would fix it) DC 10 + STR mod + Total Character levels.
    Hmmm I'm not sure thats the way to go. But then I just don't know how they could fix it for edge builds. For instance I'd like to be con for damage on my dwarven fighter (Aurvaeyn) but then my tactics would get left behind.
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  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Old Formula: DC 10 + STR mod

    New Formula (how I would fix it) DC 10 + STR mod + Total Character levels.
    Wouldn't a better solution be as follows:

    Stunning Blow: DC 10 + STR
    Improved Stunning Blow: DC 10 + half character levels + STR or CON mod (whichever is higher)

    Trip: DC 10 + STR mod
    Improved Trip: DC 10 + half character levels + STR or DEX mod (whichever is higher)

    Sunder: DC 10 + STR mod
    Improved Sunder: DC 10 + half character levels + STR or CON mod (whichever is higher)

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Old Formula: DC 10 + STR mod

    New Formula (how I would fix it) DC 10 + STR mod + Total Character levels.
    I really don't like Character Level for these. It never should have been put on Stunning Fist either.

    Base Attack Bonus is supposed to be the general measurement of combat ability of a character, I'd prefer to include that instead. Monks can use their 'Monk BaB' (like the way it changes when unarmed) for Stunning Fist, but have to use their regular not-as-good BaB for Stunning Blow.

    Stunning Blow: Str
    Trip: Dex
    Bull Rush: Con (New Feat! New Armor/Shield Enchantment!)
    Sunder: Str, Dex, or Con

    Provide those all for free, and offer Improved feat versions of each to improve the DC. Have the feat bonus scale in some regard, not just +4 like it is like with Improved Trip. I'd center that improvement around BaB again...+1 DC per 4 points of BaB, something like that.

    Also throw in combat style bonuses for funsies:

    THF: +Stunning Blow
    TWF: +Trip
    Shield: +Bull Rush

    I dunno, just rambling now...=)
    Last edited by ddorimble; 07-31-2014 at 06:21 PM.

  15. #335
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    heh, +28 to stun?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Hmmm I'm not sure thats the way to go. But then I just don't know how they could fix it for edge builds. For instance I'd like to be con for damage on my dwarven fighter (Aurvaeyn) but then my tactics would get left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Wouldn't a better solution be as follows:

    Stunning Blow: DC 10 + STR
    Improved Stunning Blow: DC 10 + half character levels + STR or CON mod (whichever is higher)

    Trip: DC 10 + STR mod
    Improved Trip: DC 10 + half character levels + STR or DEX mod (whichever is higher)

    Sunder: DC 10 + STR mod
    Improved Sunder: DC 10 + half character levels + STR or CON mod (whichever is higher)
    Quote Originally Posted by ddorimble View Post
    I really don't like Character Level for these. It never should have been put on Stunning Fist either.

    Base Attack Bonus is supposed to be the general measurement of combat ability of a character, I'd prefer to include that instead. Monks can use their 'Monk BaB' (like the way it changes when unarmed) for Stunning Fist, but have to use their regular not-as-good BaB for Stunning Blow.

    Stunning Blow: Str
    Trip: Dex
    Bull Rush: Con (New Feat! New Armor/Shield Enchantment!)
    Sunder: Str, Dex, or Con

    Provide those all for free, and offer Improved feat versions of each to improve the DC. Have the feat bonus scale in some regard, not just +4 like it is like with Improved Trip. I'd center that improvement around BaB again...+1 DC per 4 points of BaB, something like that.

    Also throw in combat style bonuses for funsies:

    THF: +Stunning Blow
    TWF: +Trip
    Shield: +Bull Rush

    I dunno, just rambling now...=)
    well, there goes that idea.

    How about this instead.

    New NEW formula: DC 10 + STR mod (Based on what your damage stat is*) + half character levels + BAB (No flurry of blows allowed)

    (*)Dex based if you have Grace (Elves) or Con if you have Throw Your Weight Around (Dwarves) Mental stats such as CHA are not allowed in this formula either, only physical stats.

    (Btw, can we talk about PALADINS now instead of tactic feats please?)
    Last edited by bennyson; 07-31-2014 at 06:40 PM.

  16. #336
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post

    (Btw, can we talk about PALADINS now instead of tactic feats please?)
    oops yep sorry =/
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  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    well, there goes that idea.

    How about this instead.

    New NEW formula: DC 10 + STR mod (Based on what your damage stat is*) + half character levels + BAB (No flurry of blows allowed)

    (*)Dex based if you have Grace (Elves) or Con if you have Throw Your Weight Around (Dwarves) Mental stats such as CHA are not allowed in this formula either, only physical stats.

    (Btw, can we talk about PALADINS now instead of tactic feats please?)
    If BAB is being added, then Epic levels need to provide full BAB. The only way currently for characters to get permanent full BAB in Epic levels is to splash 5 levels of Cleric, FvS, Sorc or Wiz.

    BTW, this discussion about tactics and tactic feats is about Paladins, since the Devs claimed that Divine Might was changed originally so Paladins could hit the tactical DCs. And we keep hearing people claim they need to splash paladin for Divine Might to hit DCs for other classes. If those tactical feats were similar to Stunning Fist, which use half Character levels, there would be less need for splashing paladins for Divine Might and all melee classes including Paladins benefit. Although Paladins would probably need more tactical boosts, which should appear in the new tree.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ~ The redesign of the Paladin spell Holy Sword spell.
    ~ The increase of the duration of the Zeal spell.
    Two fast things I dislike in the new Paladin design:
    • Ranger Envy: It feels pretty unfair that Paladins have two lev4 spells which any other melee class would happily spend 10 AP to acquire, but the best a Ranger can come up with in lev4 is Freedom of Movement. Which is nice, I guess, if you're not a Cleric, Bard, Fav, and don't have any friends who are, or boots with it, or so on...

    • Ultra-concentrated power advancement: So you're levelling along a Paladin, and it's kinda boring with incremental progress. Then you ding from 13 to 14 and boom, your critical hits more than double in power (from 6 to 16 Critical Power on a generic Rapier, or even better with named loot). One more level and wham, a huge 10% doublestrike. Then after that... level advancements become minor again. Too bad the increases can't be more spread out.

  19. #339
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    Default Paladin versus Fighter

    What's the result of these Paladin changes, in a simple example?

    Suppose we're in the heroic levels, 15-19 somewhere, and fighting monsters one at a time. No resource-limited burst DPS, no tripping / stunning tricks... just swinging a nice two-hander until they die. To handicap the Paladin, suppose the enemies are non-evil. Which pure class does more melee damage?
    • Fighter: 13-20 x3, doublestrike 2% or 3%
    • Paladin: 13-20 x4, doublestrike 10%
    • Barbarian: 11-20 x3, stronger glances

    My guess is that the Paladin is better at this task... which probably isn't how it should be.


    PS. For fun, we could consider a Bard as well, although that's less direct because they don't use two-hander. Bard (with imperfect weapon) would be 15-20 x4, +30% swing speed, doublestrike 13% to 20%, more strength mod, less PA and Meleepower.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Two fast things I dislike in the new Paladin design:
    • Ranger Envy: It feels pretty unfair that Paladins have two lev4 spells which any other melee class would happily spend 10 AP to acquire, but the best a Ranger can come up with in lev4 is Freedom of Movement. Which is nice, I guess, if you're not a Cleric, Bard, Fav, and don't have any friends who are, or boots with it, or so on...

    • Ultra-concentrated power advancement: So you're levelling along a Paladin, and it's kinda boring with incremental progress. Then you ding from 13 to 14 and boom, your critical hits more than double in power (from 6 to 16 Critical Power on a generic Rapier, or even better with named loot). One more level and wham, a huge 10% doublestrike. Then after that... level advancements become minor again. Too bad the increases can't be more spread out.
    Getting those big buffs at level 14 and 15 is pretty much exactly when you need them though. Gianthold has a huge jump in monster HP and then things scale up from there more evenly until epics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    What's the result of these Paladin changes, in a simple example?

    Suppose we're in the heroic levels, 15-19 somewhere, and fighting monsters one at a time. No resource-limited burst DPS, no tripping / stunning tricks... just swinging a nice two-hander until they die. To handicap the Paladin, suppose the enemies are non-evil. Which pure class does more melee damage?
    • Fighter: 13-20 x3, doublestrike 2% or 3%
    • Paladin: 13-20 x4, doublestrike 10%
    • Barbarian: 11-20 x3, stronger glances

    My guess is that the Paladin is better at this task... which probably isn't how it should be.


    PS. For fun, we could consider a Bard as well, although that's less direct because they don't use two-hander. Bard (with imperfect weapon) would be 15-20 x4, +30% swing speed, doublestrike 13% to 20%, more strength mod, less PA and Meleepower.
    So bards are OP? There's another thread for that.
    Last edited by Ayseifn; 07-31-2014 at 08:52 PM.

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