Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Battlehawke]

I like this "multi-selector idea"
So when you chose Divine Might, you decide if your Charisma Bonus benefits your Str, Con, Dex or Cha (last ones a tad odd). That would definitely allow options for player builds.

This would also give players more reason to "splash" Paladin levels..

I would just like to make sure the inherent balance that exists from it being Strength based remains. By being Strength based, it benefits the various fighting styles appropriately. TWF gets Full Damage/Half Damage, THF gets 1.5x Damage, Unarmed Monks get Full Damage/Full Damage, SWF gets 2x Full Damage, and so on. By making it purely damage based, it puts us back to the original problem (that they solved by making it add to Strength) where high rate of attack fighting styles benefit disproportionately more. Of course, it adds to tactics this way too.

Alternately, make it a multi-selector with some other useful option(s) to choose from. Strength builds will most likely take the option that matches how it works today, others can choose one of the other options.

[Rull]

No

That would shoe-horn players to only use swords, but what would happen if the devs decided to make the game's most POWERFUL Greataxe of all time? I mean MORE powerful than an ESOS?

I'd rather see Diversity than shoe-horned narrowness.

Also, all they have to do is code the critical threat range and multiplier on the new Holy Sword to be unable to stack with Keen Edge or similar abilities.

Yep.
Just like assassins are shoehorned into daggers&shortswords, acrobats into quarterstaffs, dwarves into axes and swashbucklers into light weapons.
Shoe-horning isn't always bad, especially when it is into a whole category of weapons.

I would have preferred a rebalancing of base weapons first, but this semi-recent development to make those weapons see play certainly works as well.
Ths game has become a lot more interesting since the enhancement pass in that regard. I suddenly find myself googling for light hammers, I never thought I would.

What would happen is interesting tradeoffs.

[toapat]

Yep.
Just like assassins are shoehorned into daggers&shortswords

honestly i feel they should have let there be something for ranged combat in Assassin. Altair uses a Crossbow in the cinematic and Ezio uses a gun. they dont have to be purely melee

[Monkey_Archer]

I was thinking about that as well. I would say make holy sword only work on swords
longsword, bastard sword, greatsword. shortsword even.

Paladins are lawful, traditional. Even if some other weapons or tactic is better, they would still use the sword because that is what was always done, knights use swords.
It would be nice to see this reflected.

I know for a dwarf the axe would be 'traditional'. And yes for a drow a rapier or whatever drow use. Maybe include "dwarven axe is added to this list if you are a dwarf" but I would stop at that.

Also makes longswords and bastard swords see some use. Two birds, one stone.

This would reduce it's power, yes. Add more power elsewhere.

I definitely have the same concerns about weapon choice, but limiting holy sword is not the best way to do it. "Traditional" folklore paladins might use longswords, but in D&D paladins favor the weapon of their deity not only longswords (longsword is a deity weapon for sovereign host).

I'd rather see the level 1 deity feat equalize weapon choices in the same way swashbuckling does. For example, Sovereign host, vulkoor and lord of blades could grant +1 threat range, amaunator could either grant +2 threat range or +2 multiplier. Dwarf could have one of their deities added ....

[toapat]

paladins favor the weapon of their deity

Only Disciple of Dispater provides diefic weapon benefits and thats barred from Any chaotic/good.

[Severlin]

Some of the colors in the tree are wrong.

If the enhancement didn't functionally change then we didn't change their cost. The cost of Vigor of Life didn't change.

Extra Smite still costs 1/2 even though it now provides 2/4 extra Smites.

The Cleaves cost 1/2/3.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

The cost of Vigor of Life didn't change.

So it's 1/rank for 2 ranks now, where before it was 2/rank for 1 rank?

[Severlin]

Tier 5 SLA for Holy Sword, or make it Competence so it does not stack.

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

wait, why is censure Demons/Outsiders going to 2/rank? Its 1 each on live and the ability is barely justifiable then.

It won't change cost. The colors were wrong.

Have the devs thought about what the new Holy Sword spell will do to Paladins' weapon type choices?

If you look at old D&D books from the 1970s or 1980s, the first pictures of Paladins show them holding longswords (broadswords?). But in DDO, for a Paladin to carry a Longsword is quite a mistake. And this new Holy Sword will make that weapon be a relatively worse choice than it is already!

Currently a Paladin's non-THF preferences are one of Scimitar, Pick, or Khopesh. (Scimitar being better when Thunderforged procs are involved, which don't scale up according to crit mult).

Current Paladins
Longsword: 17-20 x2 = 4*(2-1) = 4 Critical Power
Scimitar: 15-20 x2 = 6*(2-1) = 6 CP
Pick: 19-20 x4 = 2*(4-1) = 6 CP
Khopesh: 17-20 x3 = 4*(3-1) = 8 CP

New Paladins
Longsword: 15-20 x3 = 6*(3-1) = 12 CP
Scimitar: 13-20 x3 = 8*(3-1) = 16 CP
Pick: 17-20 x5 = 4*(5-1) = 16 CP
Khopesh: 15-20 x4 = 6*(4-1) = 18 CP

(And as you know, a Divine Crusader destiny already preferences the 3x or 4x weapons above Longsword or Scimitar)

We considered limiting it to the character's holy weapon type, but that seemed too limiting.

/snip discussion on Divine Might

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

[Severlin]

So it's 1/rank for 2 ranks now, where before it was 2/rank for 1 rank?

It hasn't changed from live.

Edit: Fixed the OP

Sev~

[jakeelala]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

It's still very good as a competence bonus, or as a non-stacking T5 SLA. I do think there will be undue pressure to run 14 Pally builds because of it's stacking. The closest thing to a spell at lvl 14 that increases damage is Deadly Weapons, and it's a very far cry from the damage Holy Weapon will give, Competence or not. I'm not as concerned as I was at first about it, you have to sacrifice a lot to get to pally 14, and you still have to cast it, Extend it, and not run out of SP or be dispelled. I like t5 SLA Competence though because it lowers the level you get it, it allows multiclassing, and you trade a little stacking power for build options. That's desirable in my opinion.

What if it went T5 SLA, Competence, and gave full BaB like Divine Power? That would be awesome.

Re: DM, just make it give Half Charisma to Damage, and Half or Third or Quarter Charisma Bonus to DCs.

Easy.

[Monkey_Archer]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

On the other hand, builds that would like to use tactics but don't have divine might available already are nerfed. I'm sure there are ways of buffing tactics or nerfing monster saves that could support that kind of change to divine might.

[ReaperAlexEU]

love the merging of evil and undead in the cores.

love the option of buying cleaves with action points, hate the agonising choice i'll have to make as it would cost 6AP to max out in a system that already has too many shinies for my sword and board build (much easier for DPS palies who don't need as much from the defender tree). curse you for making us choose between good options

but as i have a S&B build i can't help but look at that great cleave option and think i'll be missing out on it. would the defender tree or even the new shield tree get a similar greater cleave like ability at top tier? the more AoE damage i can do the more mobs i can entertain keeping the rest of my party safe without needing to rely on intimi that does not work on all mob types. so in any tank tree ways to do AoE damage would be very much appreciated!

[Coldin]

It's still very good as a competence bonus, or as a non-stacking T5 SLA. I do think there will be undue pressure to run 14 Pally builds because of it's stacking. The closest thing to a spell at lvl 14 that increases damage is Deadly Weapons, and it's a very far cry from the damage Holy Weapon will give, Competence or not. I'm not as concerned as I was at first about it, you have to sacrifice a lot to get to pally 14, and you still have to cast it, Extend it, and not run out of SP or be dispelled. I like t5 SLA Competence though because it lowers the level you get it, it allows multiclassing, and you trade a little stacking power for build options. That's desirable in my opinion.

What if it went T5 SLA, Competence, and gave full BaB like Divine Power? That would be awesome.

Re: DM, just make it give Half Charisma to Damage, and Half or Third or Quarter Charisma Bonus to DCs.

Easy.

Then everyone would just run 5 paladin, and high level paladins would still be without a purpose. Why would anyone even invest in paladin when they can get a similar effect from Swashbuckler or Rogue?

Making the spell not stack with other abilities like Rogue Dagger Mastery may be a good move, but it does weaken the spell considerably. The SP cost for Holy Sword is basically neglibable by the time they can cast it. 14+ minutes duration is plenty between shrines. That said, I do think there is a good reason to give Paladins one SP boosting enhancement that in turns gives them Magical Training. That would open up some build diversity for things like Arcane Archer Paladins.

I really just don't want to see more reasons made for simply splashing a little paladin, but no reason to invest higher.

As for Divine Might, it used to be a simple +Cha mod to damage, then got buffed to add that modifier to Str instead but without a cap. Personally, I wouldn't mind if this changed back to a damage modifier, but it is an indirect nerf to paladins who frankly don't need nerfs. How about instead limiting the cap to paladin level?

For instance, a 16 fighter/4 paladin would only be able to add +4 of their Cha modifier to strength/damage. However, a 20th level paladin would be able to add a full +20 CHA modifier to STR.

[Scrabbler]

As for Divine Might, it used to be a simple +Cha mod to damage

DDO has never had a version of Divine Might that gave Charisma mod to damage.

[Lonnbeimnech]

It's still very good as a competence bonus, or as a non-stacking T5 SLA. I do think there will be undue pressure to run 14 Pally builds because of it's stacking. The closest thing to a spell at lvl 14 that increases damage is Deadly Weapons, and it's a very far cry from the damage Holy Weapon will give, Competence or not. I'm not as concerned as I was at first about it, you have to sacrifice a lot to get to pally 14, and you still have to cast it, Extend it, and not run out of SP or be dispelled. I like t5 SLA Competence though because it lowers the level you get it, it allows multiclassing, and you trade a little stacking power for build options. That's desirable in my opinion.

I dislike the idea of making it a T5 because then instead of a 2 splash paladin, it becomes 5 splash and there is still no reason to play a toon with a paladin icon

What if it went T5 SLA, Competence, and gave full BaB like Divine Power? That would be awesome.

paladins already get full BAB

[Coldin]

DDO has never had a version of Divine Might that gave Charisma mod to damage.

Well, not exactly. But it was similar.

It was Divine Might gave +x to Damage, with the prerequisite of certain Cha thresholds. 14 Cha was +2, 16 Cha was +4 and so on. But you needed to have a base charisma to qualify, limiting it's use.

[maddong]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.
Sev~

If it isn't competence then the next 6 paladin levels have to compete with an additional +1 crit threat and mult.... Which is very hard to do.... Make it competence.

[Lonnbeimnech]

DDO has never had a version of Divine Might that gave Charisma mod to damage.

It had a 4 tiered damage boost that had higher cha requirements as you went up in damage, to a max of 8 damage at base 20 charisma and a level requirement of 20.

[Lonnbeimnech]

If it isn't competence then the next 6 paladin levels have to compete with an additional +1 crit threat and mult.... Which is very hard to do.... Make it competence.

Just so it doesn't stack with pulveriser and staff training?

[LuKaSu]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

How about both, then? half of Cha bonus to damage and tactics? Strength builds don't lose out, and dex and alternate-stat weapon-users get a nice buff.