Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[OverlordOfRats]

/snip

Rework Holy Retribution to not cost turn undead at all, but instead give it a 15/12/10 second cooldown. And make it something simple, like a +?[W] bonus and some light damage. No save. That would at least be something.

/snip

This would be a good option for it.

Put it on a cool down, give it a 1/3/5[W], add a little light or good damage, and remove the vorpal effect.

[jakeelala]

There's more to it than just crits.
A staff build with *4 crits is going to be better than say a swf centered kensai with a bastardsword (double str mod to damage and +30% alacrity)? or a wolf form druid ranger monk with 100% off hands 85% melee alacrity and ~50 doublestrike?

I'm not convinced.


for bow builds feats are going to be super tight without the bonus feats from ranger, no access to dws tree and you have to be elf or helf. the 12 monk 6 ranger 2 pall blade forged build still looks like a bigger easy button than 14 pally 6 monk

14/6 Staff build will be the best THF build I believe. And depending on the changes to THF and melee power, I'm not sure but I think the staff wins out. They are already competitive with other melee builds, this just increases their power a bit.

Ranger Druid wolves are cheesing you are not supposed to have TWF and SWF at the same time. Hopefully the Devs will fix that and the broken builds with it.

Ranged would be harder to pull off, but if you were running in LD you don't need elf or slayer arrows. You just need Manyshot and IPS to make it devastating and use Qstaffs the rest of the time (or unarmed)

What about knives?

14Pally/5 Rogue/1 Monk

15-20x3 Knives
+1 Threat Holy Sword
+1 Multi Holy Sword
13-20x4 Base with a knife. TWF or you could SWF.
OC and Earth stance
13-18x4, 19-20x6

[Coldin]

This would be a good option for it.

Put it on a cool down, give it a 1/3/5[W], add a little light or good damage, and remove the vorpal effect.

Then it might as well just be another Divine Sacrifice.

[Munkenmo]

No you give up A fair amount of monk powers or other useful abilities that those classes have used int the past for a potential benefit that I am unconvince will actually be a trade off worth doing.

Also 2 free cleaves? Um no. This will not make for a better throwing build. Daggers and staves? sure. But that's about it.

I'm sorry, but you clearly don't get it.

What monk powers? 6, 3 or 2 levels are enough to get the majority of what i want on most builds.

6 = shadowfade, 3 bonus feats, adept of forms, +1 feat away from master, shadowfade
3 = ninja spy core 2 for all those extra shurikens, evasion, 2bonus feats
2 = 2 feats, evasion, shintao's 10% offhand procs, earth stance +15prr

I do agree, Paladins trees still look pretty lame, but with 6 levels to play with I can get enough enhancements from other trees to easily spend my ap on good abilities.

In the case of dagger and 1/4 staff builds there would be 5 rogue levels, ie. enough to pick any enhancement from any rogue tree.

1/4 staff build = 6ap in Human, 32ap in Theif acrobat, 1ap in shintao, 6ap in ninja spy, 9ap in assasin, 25ap in Kotc (core 4, up to tier 3/4 healing amp & empowered smite), 1spare (or shed some to get extra loh)
Dagger build = 6ap in Human, 32ap in theif acrobat, 7ap in shintao, 6ap in ninja spy, 25ap in Kotc, 4ap in Sacred defender for +3 LOH
14/6 Throwing Build = 17ap in Halfling, 15ap in Ninja spy (sting of the ninja, shadowfade), 23ap in Kotc (core 4 + t3/t4 healing amp), 1ap in shintao, 8ap in henshin (+1 passive ki gen), 16ap in Sacred Defender (Defensive stance PRR & saves toggle)

The 14/6 throwing build has the weakest enhancment list, but that's easily fixed with a 3level splash in rogue to pick up extra dex / sneak attack dice. The light bonuses that KOTC provides alone make core 4 worth investing in for shuriken builds.

Centred Kensai's are out obviously, but that's no big deal, given that robes will limit us to 100mrr/prr, upgrading to light armor is easy to justify. A 15pally, 2monk, 3x can wear light armor, evade, reach 200mrr/prr, cast 15min Zeal / Holy weapons, it won't be as optimised allround as a cetus build, but it's absolutely going to be an EE capable first life build. If the ranged damage isn't good enough, go 15pally, 3monk, 2x, and toss some extra shurikens

I can already see the melee splits:
14pally, 4fvs, 2monk - Ameliorating strike
15pally, 3monk, 2fighter - Esos Hasteboost
15pally, 3ranger, 2monk = 100% 2wf offhand procs
14pally, 5rogue, 1monk = staff or dagger builds.

Implementing this stacking spell at the same time OC loses all it's pre-reqs and adding 2 free cleaves in the KOTC tree is a mistake. Changes suggested already mean that by proxy paladins have gained 2 feats, leaving them quite optimal on any single focus dps build.

I do think giving paladins a crit increase is fine, but there are absolutely justified reasons for making holy sword a competance bonus.

[OverlordOfRats]

Then it might as well just be another Divine Sacrifice.

What would you suggest then?

[B0ltdrag0n]

Enmo I get it just fine, however only knives and staves get any sort of extra boost. The other of builds you have at the end of your post will work just fine even if it is a competence bonus.

I think though we both agree the OC change is a pretty big issue though.

[Munkenmo]

Enmo I get it just fine, however only knives and staves get any sort of extra boost. That list of builds you have at the end of your post will work just fine even if it is a competence bonus.

I think though we both agree the OC change is a pretty big issue though.

shurikens do aswell, halfling provides a +1 competence bonus to threat.

I think the proposed holysword spell should be a new SLA replacing the weaksauceness that is t5 censure demons, make it a competance bonus and it's done and dusted. 14pally will be a great option for new players, but it won't be the best option for shurikens, daggers, staves.

Imo, OC needs to keep Power Attack, & improved critical x as a pre-req and 23str.

Rather than opening up OC to all dex based builds I'd like a new feat for our dex based brethren eg.

Epic Finesse: Grants +1 critical threat range
Pre-reqs 23dex, Improved critical, & one of: weapon finesse, precision.

Atm there simply aren't enough epic feats, rather than making the existing ones, one size fits all the devs should focus on making some more.

[ninjamonkey373]

If one of your goals is too help with feat issues on paladins, you may want to consider giving paladins access to magical training through enhancements. Rangers and Bards have this option, Paladins are the only class with a sp bar that always has to spend a feat to get magical training. Magical training is very useful in epic content, because that 12 sp you can get back from echos of power gives just enough for a rejuvenation cocoon. Since the tree looks cramped you could easily merge the 2 actions boots (attack and damage) into a multiselector and put Energy of the Zealot in the spot where action boost attack was.

[Krelar]

Ok I'm taking a shot at the AP's I'd spend to get to the capstone (making some assumptions about the cost of abilities)

Core Abilities (5 AP spent)
Slayer of Evil I:
Courage of Heaven:
Slayer of Evil II:
Improved Courage of Heaven:
Slayer of Evil III:
Champion of Good:

Tier One (2 AP Spent)
Extra Smite: 2 ranks (assuming 1 ap per tier)

Tier Two (6 AP Spent)
Divine Might: 3 ranks
Exalted Cleave: 3 ranks

Tier Three (8 AP Spent)
Divine Sacrifice: 3 ranks
Vigor of Life: 2 ranks
Exalted Smite: 3 ranks


Tier Four (3 AP Spent)
Vigor of Life: 2 ranks
Empowered Smite:

Tier Five (7 AP Spent)
Vigor of Life: 2 ranks
Sealed Life:
Avenging Cleave: 3 ranks


Not overly interested in but I'll take them to fill out some more ap:
+1 Strength x2: (4 AP)

Only taking because there are not enough AP at tier 1 that I am interested in:
Extra Turn Undead x2: )2 AP)


That gets me to 37 AP so I need to come up with 4 more AP to take the capstone....

I was really hoping you would add/change more in the KoTC tree than this.

[toapat]

That gets me to 37 AP so I need to come up with 4 more AP to take the capstone....

Extra Smiting is 4AP, not 2.

Divine might is still 6AP in this version

Extra turning is still one of the most important enhancements in the tree

[HatsuharuZ]

Why does Holy Retribution still have that "less than 1,000 HP" requirement?

When in a group or by yourself, all enemies will have WAY more HP than 1,000 and if your in a group, there is no time to use this ability because that enemy will die off quickly if it reaches 1,000 HP. Specially when you have the hard hitting classes around such as Monks or Barbarians.

In all manners of seriousness, the ability's saving throw mechanic already balanced this since the day you guys created Holy Retribution, letting that 1,000 HP requirement linger is an unnecessary pain in the neck when monsters have to make a saving throw against 10 +class level +stat mod.

I fully agree with this sentiment. It has way too many conditions, a lot the old "Gathering Cold" in the old warchanter tree.

[Krelar]

Extra Smiting is 4AP, not 2.

It is on live but it's also 4 different tiers for 1 ap each. It's not clear in this new tree with 2 tiers if it will be 1 ap per tier or 2 ap.

Divine might is still 6AP in this version

*smack* I did forget that part.

Extra turning is still one of the most important enhancements in the tree

I don't think I have ever run out of turn undeads I only take them because the rest of the tier 1 stuff is so uninteresting to me.

So with the addition 3 AP I forgot from divine might I end up 2 short depending on what the cost of extra smiting is.

My point is that I am not actually making any real decisions. It's all taking what I want then trying to find enough filler to get to the capstone.

I'd like to feel like there to are some actual choices to make in what I take.

[Krelar]

Divine Might is, quite frankly, strong enough, and one reason Strength based builds overshadow Dexterity based melee. We can't really justify increasing its power.

If you really wanted to help dex based (or any stat other than strength based) builds you would change divine might back into a base damage bonus instead of a strength bonus. (I don't think you were around but this is the way it was for years before the enhancement pass)

[toapat]

I don't think I have ever run out of turn undeads I only take them because the rest of the tier 1 stuff is so uninteresting to me.

So with the addition 3 AP I forgot from divine might I end up 2 short depending on what the cost of extra smiting is.

My point is that I am not actually making any real decisions. It's all taking what I want then trying to find enough filler to get to the capstone.

I'd like to feel like there to are some actual choices to make in what I take.

No other resource boosters are better then 1/1 efficiency, I dont think they would change that now.

Damage boost for 6 will finally matter, giving 3 more melee power for every 10 you have.

On my main, i want to and do use Turn undead for divine might, Glorious Stand, and Divine Righteousness. Of the remaining ones, i never would invest in Rally or Eternal Defender because they both are terrible, while Holy Retribution is underwhelming enough i dont want to use it when it shares resources with 3 much better spells

[maddmatt70]

Nope. May I direct you to Dev diary #2 where there are plans to add 250% damage to divine crusader?

I would definitely say that divine crusader is the new defacto melee epic destiny with these changes.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Nevermind. Just read through the thread a bit.

Looks like Holy Retribution will cost a use of Turn Undead, if I read that correctly. So a lot of Exalted Smites, just not an infinite number.

[B0ltdrag0n]

It is on live but it's also 4 different tiers for 1 ap each. It's not clear in this new tree with 2 tiers if it will be 1 ap per tier or 2 ap.

It is clear. Orange = 2 ap per tier. Just like very other tree that has been previewed.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I would definitely say that divine crusader is the new defacto melee epic destiny with these changes.

Too bad the damage over time effect only works for the 1st guy to get his stacks of purification on any individual mob.

[toapat]

wait, why is censure Demons/Outsiders going to 2/rank? Its 1 each on live and the ability is barely justifiable then.

Same with Holy Retribution.

Divine sacrifice should have Passion folded in if its going to 2/rank

I can see the cleaves being expensive but i feel like 6 points each is a bit high.

Vigor of Life costing twice what it already does is also bad, and all 3 should still be folded together along with Sealed life.

[Krelar]

It is clear. Orange = 2 ap per tier. Just like very other tree that has been previewed.

It wasn't mentioned in the post and I didn't remember it previously so I don't call it clear.

But anyways does this mean that vigor of life is now 12 AP to get 30% healing amp as opposed to the 6 on live right now?

Divine Sacrifice is also now 2 per rank?

That pretty much kills a lot of the interest I had in the changes to this tree.