Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[PermaBanned]

Behind the scenes there exists only class levels (which can total up to twenty) and epic levels (21-28). Since a level 20 character can have any number of combinations of normal levels (rogue 5/fighter 10/wizard 5) there is no unified place to add the bonus.

This is a case where something seems to a player like it must be really easy to add, but the way the code is set up it actually be a large task that would take tech and threaten the schedule.

Sev~

My point was that until you disclosed the existance of this tech limitation, you gave the definite impression that you've been testing these proposed Melee Power changes and the revisions to them while Melee Power was accruing starting at level 20. To now come back after doing that testing to say there's a tech limitation preventing you from assigning MP at level 20 makes me wonder how you were previously testing with that in place?

In short, what I've come to understand is that you were somehow successfully testing with a component in place that could not be there, and I find that worrisome.

Edit:
It seems to me this limitation should've been discovered prior to the OP being drafted, or at the very latest during the "testing" that accompanied the decision to cut the Destiny/Character level contributions in half. The apparent fact that it was not discovered at or prior to those stages is what I am concerned about, not the limitation it's self.

[Nascoe]

My point was that until you disclosed the existance of this tech limitation, you gave the definite impression that you've been testing these proposed Melee Power changes and the revisions to them while Melee Power was accruing starting at level 20. To now come back after doing that testing to say there's a tech limitation preventing you from assigning MP at level 20 makes me wonder how you were previously testing with that in place?

In short, what I've come to understand is that you were somehow successfully testing with a component in place that could not be there, and I find that worrisome.

Edit:
It seems to me this limitation should've been discovered prior to the OP being drafted, or at the very latest during the "testing" that accompanied the decision to cut the Destiny/Character level contributions in half. The apparent fact that it was not discovered at or prior to those stages is what I am concerned about, not the limitation it's self.

Sorry, but I think you are nitpicking now. Does it really matter what exactly was tested in detail or not? I imagine that testing would have been adding melee Power to a 28 lvl character and see how that makes it far too easy. The original idea most likely came from a brainstorming session with ideas mentioned. Testing will be done more in detail as soon as
a. the changes get more hammered out
b. once the devs get to actually do some programming on it.

To do b. before most of a. is done, is just wasting developer work. Expect a rough build to be up on lamannia and most likely some swings in power based on feedback will be made before a definitive version gets fixed. I can imagine that the melee power added to EDs will not have to be necessarily the same for each ED for example.

[xoowak]

As a dev, he could simple set his stat directly while working on the numbers rather than go through the leveling process. It makes total sense to me to do that before actually building out the feat/leveling/UI stuff.

[PermaBanned]

Does it really matter what exactly was tested in detail or not?

Yes, I believe it matters a great deal. What other factors have been included in the decision making process that are going to run into technical limitations? Note the proposed resolution for this tech issue is to simply poof that (admitidly small) contribution of MP out of existance, and should it become an issue then maybe "roll it into level 28." Now think forward a bit to the level cap increase, would the result be:

• That there is an oddly arbitrary bump in progression where Epic Character levels 21-30 each grant 5 MP except for level 28 which grants 10?

• That the extra 5 MP is relocated from level 28 to level 30?

• That there is another unforeseen technical limitation which over complicates having one particular Epic Level contribute a different amount of MP than all the rest?

I also find it troubling because if giving MP starting at 20 was part of the design plan but unknowingly unimplementable, what other pieces of the intended design might run into unforeseen technical limitations, and how will those effect the achievable results vs the desired/intended results?

[patang01]

Behind the scenes there exists only class levels (which can total up to twenty) and epic levels (21-28). Since a level 20 character can have any number of combinations of normal levels (rogue 5/fighter 10/wizard 5) there is no unified place to add the bonus.

This is a case where something seems to a player like it must be really easy to add, but the way the code is set up it actually be a large task that would take tech and threaten the schedule.

Sev~

Is that why the Epic Cannith challenges starts at 21 now and not 20?

[LrdSlvrhnd]

So, some thoughts (some inspired by Geoffhanna's post)

1. Rather than dealing with the technical limitations preventing L20 from getting MP (and, presumably, RP) by backloading an extra 5 at cap (which is presumably going to have to be changed when we go to 30) - how 'bout FRONTloading it by giving the extra at 21 instead?
2. Don't implement Ranged Power to MB. It's a melee ability, it doesn't need to be ranged. The people using it ranged are using a bug (dare I even say "e-word"?) and they had a nice ride, but you can't count on bugs sticking around. It's time this one was squashed, rather than making it "WAI". Because it very clearly wasn't intended.
3. Don't implement Melee Power until you're ready to go ahead and adjust EVERYTHING that you want for it, not just in the Paladin trees but in *every* tree and *every* destiny and *every* feat and *every* item. All at once. Just like you did Spellpower. Yes, some stuff may need tweaking after the fact, but given the way systems get abandoned, I'd *really* rather not get into a situation where a year down the road, this has been done for Pally and Monk and Fighter, but not for Barbarian and Rogue and Ranger and FvS/Cleric (Warpriest) and Sorc/Wizard (Eldritch Knight) and Arti and Druid and most especially Bard because they just had a pass so they're definitely going to be last on the list to get MP. And also a few must-have pieces of gear but there won't be any more choices.
4. Don't implement Melee Power until you're ready with Ranged Power as well. Same stipulations as above, and for same reasons. I'd hate to get into a situation where a year down the road ranged is lagging well behind melee because you've left and everything's been abandoned half-done.
5. I think everyone would prefer to wait and get it right than to have things dribbled and drabbled out piecemeal and then abandoned. Yes, I mention it being abandoned a lot. With good reason, IMHO.
6. Go ahead, make Master's Blitz better than everything else. But don't make it (or rather, keep it) so much better that people feel pressured to be running in LD all the time. I'm still filling out my EDs on *everyone*. There are still several where I feel I can contribute in EEs and still get useful XP. There are several where I wouldn't switch to in an EE unless I was sure that I was gonna be carried. I've gotten harassed for not being in LD, for not Blitzing - even on characters who haven't even *gotten* to LD yet. And if you go with the current plan of making Blitz easier to maintain *and* easier for multiple people to run in *and* as much better than anything else as the current proposal stands, that's going to make things worse. I suggest going back to 10 per (certain) ED level and 10/epic level (heck, you could probably even keep the extra 10 points you can't give at 20 this way!) and reducing MB accordingly. Better is good. So much better that you HAVE to be using it to effectively contribute is not.
7. Some EDs can (and probably should) get a choice between MP and RP (and possibly even SP). Some EDs can (and probably should) get both MP and RP

TL; DR: Go slow with these proposed Melee Power changes. Take your time. Get them right. Do everything it affects at once. And do it at the same time as the Ranged Power changes.

[mikarddo]

My point was that until you disclosed the existance of this tech limitation, you gave the definite impression that you've been testing these proposed Melee Power changes and the revisions to them while Melee Power was accruing starting at level 20. To now come back after doing that testing to say there's a tech limitation preventing you from assigning MP at level 20 makes me wonder how you were previously testing with that in place?

In short, what I've come to understand is that you were somehow successfully testing with a component in place that could not be there, and I find that worrisome.

Edit:
It seems to me this limitation should've been discovered prior to the OP being drafted, or at the very latest during the "testing" that accompanied the decision to cut the Destiny/Character level contributions in half. The apparent fact that it was not discovered at or prior to those stages is what I am concerned about, not the limitation it's self.

Relax, thats how it is when you get the raw idea early on. If any testing was done it surely was simply with some hardcoded bonusses and nothing that would resemble the actual code so your indignation is misplaced.

[Grailhawk]

[*] I think everyone would prefer to wait and get it right than to have things dribbled and drabbled out piecemeal and then abandoned. Yes, I mention it being abandoned a lot. With good reason, IMHO.

No not everyone I for one want to see blitz nerfed so that the other destinies can be more of a choice regardless of how halved a$$ things come out.

[geoffhanna]

Behind the scenes there exists only class levels (which can total up to twenty) and epic levels (21-28). Since a level 20 character can have any number of combinations of normal levels (rogue 5/fighter 10/wizard 5) there is no unified place to add the bonus.

This is a case where something seems to a player like it must be really easy to add, but the way the code is set up it actually be a large task that would take tech and threaten the schedule.

Sev~

Too bad you can't change it to 28 character levels while you are in there.

[PermaBanned]

Relax, thats how it is when you get the raw idea early on. If any testing was done it surely was simply with some hardcoded bonusses and nothing that would resemble the actual code so your indignation is misplaced.

Indignation? I guess that doesn't mean what I think it means.

I am aware that the testing was likely done by hard code rather than checking to see if it was feasible to implement - and I consider that to be a problem for being at this stage of development. I suspect they discovered this technical limitation in the process of developing the Lama build, which means the design goals we've been discussing were based off of "What we'd like to do" vs "What we can do."

I now find myself waiting for the "Oh yeah, and ... has also run into a technical limitation so now..."

Overly pessimistic? Perhaps, but hardly unjustified based on past experiences with what they wanted/intended to deliver vs what they actually/effectively delivered.

[droid327]

For the time being we will likely add Ranged Power to the Master's Blitz buff as well as Melee Power.

So in other words, for the time being, Ranged chars will all run in LD, because that's the only way to get *any* ranged power, let alone +100%. But the only benefit in the whole tree will be Blitz, because nothing else in the tree works for Ranged. But still, that one skill alone still outweighs Shiradi, and outweighs FotW's one-time burst damage. Especially if they "fix" FotW to not work with ranged at the same time.

So, for the time being, after L20, the only thing ranged chars ever get is Blitz.

Not that I'm complaining, since Blitz with no tactical feats will be a net improvement for ranged chars currently in FotW or Shiradi. Just that it seems to be creating the exact same problem that its setting out to solve - namely that LD is the only sensible choice for a given combat style. I'm really thinking Ranged Power needs to be pushed into the same update with Melee Power, since melee and ranged EDs are somewhat inextricable.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I'm really thinking Ranged Power needs to be pushed into the same update with Melee Power, since melee and ranged EDs are somewhat inextricable.

I agree that RP should be implemented ASAP, but not at the cost of delaying other (MP) implementations.

[BananaHat]

To clarify the updated OP, Blitz is an additional 100 Melee Power for a total of 175. That said, it is easier to maintain and works on long boss fights.

We are in the process of examining Master's Blitz with ranged attacks. For the time being we will likely add Ranged Power to the Master's Blitz buff as well as Melee Power.

Sev~

Appreciate considering leaving more options for ranged combat besides using Fury of the Wild. Legendary Dreadnought is not just a "melee" destiny, but really more of a "weapon" destiny that very heavily leaned melee as evidenced by it specifically excluding handwraps from certain abilities *grumble grumble Lay Waste/Momentum Swing WAI* It always seems to me like the description was wrong, not the implementation. I mean, melee has so many options that ranged is stuck with certain combos.

If they ever getting around to Furyshot not working on each arrow in the volley which seems like the main complaint about it being "overpowered", they need to seriously add some options besides Shiradi for ranged characters (and remember, not all ranged characters have Manyshot).

[Bridge_Dweller]

Blitz should NOT give ranged power.

[BananaHat]

I agree that RP should be implemented ASAP, but not at the cost of delaying other (MP) implementations.

It seems like the system is being implemented right alongside melee power. Why not add the same innate passive bonuses to leveling/core abilities for the appropriate destinies, such as Shiradi, Fatesinger, Fury of the Wild, Legendary Dreadnought, Shadowdancer (and maybe Divine Crusader). It seems the intent is to possibly have blitz work with ranged power, why not try to actually fully implement the system instead of doing it halfway and leaving a lot of builds out? It can go up on Lamannia with a strong stipulation that the numbers are subject to change based on playtesting and just go from there.

Set the system up and tweak the numbers. Please don't leave yet another partially implemented system. There have been oh so many examples of them throughout the replies to these dev diaries if you don't know what they are.

[BananaHat]

Blitz should NOT give ranged power.

Why not? Why do melee characters need an ability that gives them 250% damage that they can sustain through long boss fights when ranged characters/casters have no such mechanism? For boss fights, ranged characters can get +30% damage by standing still through Archer's Focus, thus giving up a lot of the mobility defense inherent in being a ranged character. To me, this 30% should bring them near the damage of a melee character. So, in my mind, ranged characters should hit for roughly 75% of a melee characters damage. This seems (to me) like a large enough trade-off for the defense of being at range. I also whole heartedly approve of more mobs having effective ranged attacks (bow, spears, nets/bolas to slow or immobilize on specific monsters).

Now if you are making the argument that due to the inherent dangers of being in melee, they deserve an exclusive massive damage bonus, that is another story and I think it would better support your case to the devs to state as such. I can see where epic levels tend to up the pain and so maybe melee pulls ahead a bit more to compensate, but it still feels like an awfully large gap to make master's blitz (along with a LOT of other melee abilities) the sole domain of melee characters.

[Coldin]

Why not? Why do melee characters need an ability that gives them 250% damage that they can sustain through long boss fights when ranged characters/casters have no such mechanism? For boss fights, ranged characters can get +30% damage by standing still through Archer's Focus, thus giving up a lot of the mobility defense inherent in being a ranged character. To me, this 30% should bring them near the damage of a melee character. So, in my mind, ranged characters should hit for roughly 75% of a melee characters damage. This seems (to me) like a large enough trade-off for the defense of being at range. I also whole heartedly approve of more mobs having effective ranged attacks (bow, spears, nets/bolas to slow or immobilize on specific monsters).

Now if you are making the argument that due to the inherent dangers of being in melee, they deserve an exclusive massive damage bonus, that is another story and I think it would better support your case to the devs to state as such. I can see where epic levels tend to up the pain and so maybe melee pulls ahead a bit more to compensate, but it still feels like an awfully large gap to make master's blitz (along with a LOT of other melee abilities) the sole domain of melee characters.

I don't see what point you're trying to make here. Ranged do need some ability that gives +x% to Ranged Power, but Blitz is not the place for it. Legendary Dreadnought is a melee destiny almost exclusively. Half it's effects only work for melee, and the the others are very exclusionary, or replicated by other EDs. I see no reason why there should be any benefit to a ranged hidden way up in an Epic Moment that even says it only works for Melee.

As for monsters...they already have plenty of ranged damage. Some hamstring with ranged attacks, all of them hit harder and faster.

If Ranged Power is added to Destinies (and it should), then there are much better places for it.

[Cetus]

To clarify the updated OP, Blitz is an additional 100 Melee Power for a total of 175. That said, it is easier to maintain and works on long boss fights.

We are in the process of examining Master's Blitz with ranged attacks. For the time being we will likely add Ranged Power to the Master's Blitz buff as well as Melee Power.

Sev~

I would rather you keep the max at the current 250, with the on-kill charge mechanic. Its king of killing trash, keep it that way. Let a different destiny excel at boss fights, instead of blitz. This way you can design future content as boss heavy or trash heavy in order to impose external limitations on these epic moments.

Seriously, this nerf is unneeded. Buff the competing epic moments of the other destiny's, with your awesome interactions lately - you surely seem like you're good for it. Simply put, nerfing it is an un-fun and lazy solution.

My suggestion remains as such:

5 Melee Power (and spell power + ranged power, what the hell - make the epic levels give bonuses across the "powers", but this is off-topic) per level from 21-28. Thats 40 total.

Make the innates of the relevant destiny trees also give 5 - so a maxed destiny level 28 will have 70 constant melee power - this on its own is a great change that gives off-destiny melees a significant advantage. 70% is pretty awesome.

Now....blitz should cover the difference between the 70 and the current 250% it grants - I take this position because we already have it. Simple. I don't want to lose what I already have, its not fun.

Every killing blow should grant 18% damage, for a total of 10 stacks, with the removal of the swinging-at-air mechanic.

As a long-time user of blitz, here's my thoughts/suggestions (I hope you consider this with seriousness)

1. This is a somewhat gentle treatment, not too radical.

2. The competing destiny's have a permanent 70% piece of today's fully charged blitz.

3. The relative power of blitz has been nerfed by, well - 70% versus the other destiny's - brings the competition more in line than it is today, while keeping its absolute power untouched.

4. The power of blitz still contains an opportunity cost of landing the killing blow - confines its use to trash beating or solo play.

5. Make blitz continue working on ranged. I don't see why melee/ranged hybrids should be punished. Punish them instead with better feat design, so picking up both melee and ranged spec becomes more problematic simply due to desirable feat competition.

6. Remove the annoying charging mechanic

7. Improve the power of the competing epic moments

7. Remove any defensive perk for blitz - let it strictly be an offensive moment.

8. Even making it 100%, if it charges every time I attack - I essentially have 100% extra DPS for as long as the boss is alive with no opportunity cost. I don't like this at all. I want to work for it. And screwing with the charging mechanic will spell out all sorta of doom all on its own I think.

DONE

[PermaBanned]

**** Cetus. There's been quite a few times where I've read one of your posts and shook my head or snickered without bothering to post about it. We've a great many differences of opinion that I simply haven't bothered to try and debate with you...

I would rather you keep the max at the current 250, with the on-kill charge mechanic. Its king of killing trash, keep it that way. Let a different destiny excel at boss fights, instead of blitz. This way you can design future content as boss heavy or trash heavy in order to impose external limitations on these epic moments.

Seriously, this nerf is unneeded. Buff the competing epic moments of the other destiny's, with your awesome interactions lately - you surely seem like you're good for it. Simply put, nerfing it is an un-fun and lazy solution.

<your suggestions>

DONE

...But ^that^...

That's some **** fine reasoning, and some of the best suggestions of how to intelligently arrive at the goals the Devs are ostensibly trying to achieve. Well said and well done, I hope they listen. I'm not sure I completely agree with the numbers distribution, but I think the best way to arrive at appropriate numbers will be through Lama playtesting rather than further theory crafting.

[Failedlegend]

Reduced. Sorry. I said dropping meaning "dropping the overall melee power bonus" but what I wrote isn't clear.

Each epic level gives 5, each innate gives 5 for a total of 75 Melee Power.

Sev~

Why not just give 10 for each epic level (21-28...possibly 20 MP at 28) so that way melee's can choose w/e ED they want instead of having to decide which EDs should get MP and which should not. I guess the same goes for Ranged Powr

That said I'd like to see something similar with caster level increases, any spell caster is currently EXTREMELY limited in which ED they can use and anyone without EDs are unable to play anything DC based in Epic content so I'd like to see just generic +CLs moved to epic levels as well.

Am I wrong that EDs were/are meant to be flexible?