Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Coldin]

Some follow up:



Actually we are saying that non-blitz melee is behind ranged and casting builds. Reducing monster health does nothing to balance the relative power of various builds.



If we just nerf blitz then melee won't have any option or build to stay competitive with good ranged and casting builds.



As we test the changes to see how they perform this is a very real option.



Yes.

Sev~

I am very curious about the definition of "ranged builds" here. The only ranged builds I know of that regularly outpace Melee are those that rely exclusively on fury+manyshot, are using the combination of monk's 10k stars and manyshot, or are Artificers (debatable there). Melee from my perspective has always been above Ranged on average.

[Monkey_Archer]

I am very curious about the definition of "ranged builds" here. The only ranged builds I know of that regularly outpace Melee are those that rely exclusively on fury+manyshot, are using the combination of monk's 10k stars and manyshot, or are Artificers (debatable there). Melee from my perspective has always been above Ranged on average.

Ranged in general is still very far behind melee. The only reason ranged is considered powerful now is because it is being propped up by a single class choice (monk) and bugged destinies (blitz working, adrenaline procing multiple times). Any attempt to build a non-monk in any other destiny would show how weak ranged combat still is.

[Skeen]

This is the perfect time to remove ranged from working with Master Blitz. Players complain that effects don't match the descriptions. Mater Blitz working with range is not as intended. Stand up for once an say range working with Blitz is not as intended. If players wated to make a build around a bug which took forever to fix, its on them.

Master's Blitz description states melee not Melee and Ranged.

Even the fluff states its a melee centric tree.
"Undisputed lord of the battlefield, the Legendary Dreadnought is capable of melee maneuvers that make enemies quake then fall, never to stand again.

This Martial Epic Destiny excels at melee battle and specializes in improved combat feats such as sunder and stunning blow. When in full swing the dreadnought deals massive physical damage and sends enemies reeling. "

Agreed. Clearly Master's Blitz is not intended for Ranged. Please take this time to correct the oversight. I can understand some will say it's fine as is because they have integrated the bug into their build though.

[Coldin]

Ranged in general is still very far behind melee. The only reason ranged is considered powerful now is because it is being propped up by a single class choice (monk) and bugged destinies (blitz working, adrenaline procing multiple times). Any attempt to build a non-monk in any other destiny would show how weak ranged combat still is.

I'm glad I'm not alone on that thought. Which is why it makes me very confused when Severlin says only Blitz brings melee above Ranged.

[Desonde]

you are essentially saying that melee players are doing 150% less damage than they need to combat the inflated monster health

Actually we are saying that non-blitz melee is behind ranged and casting builds. Reducing monster health does nothing to balance the relative power of various builds.

Thanks for the followup, however this point misses the problem [which Dev. Diary 1 attempts to address], non-blitz melee isn't behind ranged and casting builds, it's actually ahead. The only reason why it doesn't appear this way is that non-blitz melee w/o 50% displacement, 25% incorp. and 28% dodge don't survive long enough to demonstrate it.

Thunder-forged longbow + Slaying Arrow + Manyshot + Adrenaline is the largest single damage hit out there yes, and it too may need to be addressed, but if you average it's damage over time out it will not be able to match the damage against a single target when compared to an equally built non-blitz melee. Ranged will only become better than melee when it hits multiple targets.

The only ranged build that comes close to melee damage is some shuriken builds that have a lot of sneak attack damage, which may also need to be looked at.

I cannot comment on the caster builds directly, but I'm sure others will.

[Scrabbler]

Swashbuckler with buckler = 15% doublestrike, 20 PRR, 10% dodge, 20% shield bash, all the stats on the buckler you are wearing, (possibly +20 melee power unless an exception is created)
Swashbuckler with emptyhand = 10% double strike, +5 damage

Although Imp Shield Bash doesn't give a full 20% bash rate, something you left out is that when the bash happens it raises your mainhand crit chance. And the Guardbreaking effect on that named Swashbuckler is strong enough to be almost considered a permanent feature of the build.

[Silverleafeon]

I have failed as a member of the Player's Council for looking at this data for quite awhile and not recognizing the Ranged Blitzing toons would be impacted by this.

For that I apologize.

I did not ask deep enough about ranged blitzing and was at one time given the erroneous answer that ranged blitz only for the massive dodge bonuses.

Carry on, this is your moment to shine, and your time to be heard, not mine.

[maddmatt70]

Some follow up:



Actually we are saying that non-blitz melee is behind ranged and casting builds. Reducing monster health does nothing to balance the relative power of various builds.



If we just nerf blitz then melee won't have any option or build to stay competitive with good ranged and casting builds.



As we test the changes to see how they perform this is a very real option.



Yes.

Sev~

I think that nerfs is more the way to go here then buffs. Buff melee in general a little bit, nerf furyshot and blitz and spellcasting for shiradi and exalted angel etc./dc where needed. Seems like a lot less dev time and a better game. Then change damage sources a little bit so they scale better, but maybe nerf the damage for crits a little bit so you can balance things the way you intend. This whole melee power proposal is going to lead to the game to fall into a mess that will not resemble D&D at all.

[edrein]

Some follow up:



Actually we are saying that non-blitz melee is behind ranged and casting builds. Reducing monster health does nothing to balance the relative power of various builds.



If we just nerf blitz then melee won't have any option or build to stay competitive with good ranged and casting builds.



As we test the changes to see how they perform this is a very real option.



Yes.

Sev~

While this is all fine and dandy in ideal thoughts, I personally think that Master's Blitz shouldn't be your only concern for Epic Destiny meleers. How about Avatar of Nature (from Primal Avatar), Unbridled Fury, a melee-power scaling alternative to A Scattering of Petals, scaling for Dark Imbuement, Strike Down or Celestial Bombardment, and Turn of the Tide? I mean seriously, I know Blitz is your frame of reference for this discussion, but can we see that you're actually considering all the options so we as the players get more OPTIONS? I personally hate Blitz before and even after your suggestions, I just think that for the gain you get the rest of the Destiny is meh at best. So why not show us that you can tinker with the other options first, so that we have a good glimpse that this entire system won't fail? And what's with the lack of comments on how this will affect TWF? I also noticed you stated that druid animal forms and various feats are a bug, in the case of TWF it shouldn't be a bug atleast in the logical sense nor really a balancing sense. If you want to remove TWF for druids then by all means give us a nice compensation with this melee power system, otherwise Nature's Warrior will finally become obsolete with the removal of TWF.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Before you start insulting my intelligence, you might want to read up on swashbuckler builds. Swashbuckler and defender is not mutually exclusive, and those 2000 hp dps/defensive/saves builds that you call laughable already exist, and will continue to be quite successful with or without the shield mastery feats..

The offense is great, the defense is so-so on a Swash and that's even with the +20% hp you can get from being in Stalwart.

I hope reposting the part of my post that you missed when you proceeded to try teach me about Stalwart Stance being usable while Swashbuckling doesn't insult your intelligence.

I have already played a 1600 hp con based Swashbuckling/Stalwart Defender dwarf up to the 28 cap and TR'ed it. It was great. It was indeed powerful. It also wasn't in the same ballpark as what a Paladin with SWF in a defensive stance would be.

I currently use and/or have played up to cap and TR'ed a number of Swashbuckler builds, from dex based throwers, to charisma based tacticians, to con based piles of HP. They are all strong, but none are going to replace my non-Bard thrower when it comes to effectiveness and none are going to make sorcs/casters/fighter-pally-monk wf blends or wf pally stick blends feel obsolete in any way.

One of us is making all of their judgments based on what they are seeing on paper and one of us is speaking from experience. Now I'll admit, I probably undersold Swashbucklers when I said the defense they can achieve is "so-so". It's pretty good, especially on con/dex based builds, but it's still not comparable with what Paladins would be able to achieve in stance while SWF.

you might want to read up on swashbuckler builds.

You might want to stop reading up on Swashbuckler builds and actually play one.

OK, I'm doing what I hate most in these official discussions; I'm getting sidetracked in side-arguments and derailing the thread. No more. Done. Apologies to all.

[Severlin]

I am very curious about the definition of "ranged builds" here. The only ranged builds I know of that regularly outpace Melee are those that rely exclusively on fury+manyshot, are using the combination of monk's 10k stars and manyshot, or are Artificers (debatable there). Melee from my perspective has always been above Ranged on average.

We are currently looking at top performers. In the future when we look at ranged builds in more depth we can discuss under performing ranged builds.

Sev~

[Monkey_Archer]

While this is all fine and dandy in ideal thoughts, I personally think that Master's Blitz shouldn't be your only concern for Epic Destiny meleers. How about Avatar of Nature (from Primal Avatar), Unbridled Fury, a melee-power scaling alternative to A Scattering of Petals, scaling for Dark Imbuement, Strike Down or Celestial Bombardment, and Turn of the Tide? I mean seriously, I know Blitz is your frame of reference for this discussion, but can we see that you're actually considering all the options so we as the players get more OPTIONS? I personally hate Blitz before and even after your suggestions, I just think that for the gain you get the rest of the Destiny is meh at best. So why not show us that you can tinker with the other options first, so that we have a good glimpse that this entire system won't fail? And what's with the lack of comments on how this will affect TWF? I also noticed you stated that druid animal forms and various feats are a bug, in the case of TWF it shouldn't be a bug atleast in the logical sense nor really a balancing sense. If you want to remove TWF for druids then by all means give us a nice compensation with this melee power system, otherwise Nature's Warrior will finally become obsolete with the removal of TWF.

I would say that using blitz as the "frame of reference" for a balanced melee character is a big mistake. Well built and skilled blitz players can already effortlessly solo the toughest content the game has to offer. A more typical group of semi-casual players can still easily complete any quest with a single blitzer in the party. The idea that giving all melees the same power level as that single blitzer (or in the case of divine crusader, much much more power) doesn't balance melee choices at all. It just changes the FOTM and turns EE content into casual.
Personally, I believe that divine crusader would make a much better frame of reference for melee power. Its a very strong destiny that does not need any buffs atm.

As for the whole druid fixes/nerfs/etc... I don't really know exactly how strong all the combinations are since I don't play a druid, but I would say that in an ideal world, the natural fighting feats should be the only feats that affect animal forms, and most importantly that those natural fighting feats should get buffed to be equal and competitive with any other fighting styles.

[Severlin]

I think that nerfs is more the way to go here then buffs. Buff melee in general a little bit, nerf furyshot and blitz and spellcasting for shiradi and exalted angel etc./dc where needed. Seems like a lot less dev time and a better game. Then change damage sources a little bit so they scale better, but maybe nerf the damage for crits a little bit so you can balance things the way you intend. This whole melee power proposal is going to lead to the game to fall into a mess that will not resemble D&D at all.

If we nerfed all of the top performing builds we'd still have no way to scale up static damage effects into the epic levels, which is the whole point of melee power.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

I am very curious about the definition of "ranged builds" here. The only ranged builds I know of that regularly outpace Melee are those that rely exclusively on fury+manyshot, are using the combination of monk's 10k stars and manyshot, or are Artificers (debatable there). Melee from my perspective has always been above Ranged on average.

Melee is generally above ranged builds when they are not in those destinies you described. those ranged builds than have to rely on Manyshot and anything else that can boost their ranged damage like Pinion for example. a ranged character in Shiradi is actually not that bad. its just the other destinies offer more and better for ranged.

[edrein]

I would say that using blitz as the "frame of reference" for a balanced melee character is a big mistake. Well built and skilled blitz players can already effortlessly solo the toughest content the game has to offer. A more typical group of semi-casual players can still easily complete any quest with a single blitzer in the party. The idea that giving all melees the same power level as that single blitzer (or in the case of divine crusader, much much more power) doesn't balance melee choices at all. It just changes the FOTM and turns EE content into casual.
Personally, I believe that divine crusader would make a much better frame of reference for melee power. Its a very strong destiny that does not need any buffs atm.

As for the whole druid fixes/nerfs/etc... I don't really know exactly how strong all the combinations are since I don't play a druid, but I would say that in an ideal world, the natural fighting feats should be the only feats that affect animal forms, and most importantly that those natural fighting feats should get buffed to be equal and competitive with any other fighting styles.

I would agree with you that for the point of reference Divine Crusader is much better. As for the druid's natural fighting, I would agree. The issue is it would require you reaching a good base 30% doublestrike in feats before you even touch the enhancement boost for an additional 30% and Celerity for the 50% boost as well. Only then would the feat situation be workable without TWF.

[maddmatt70]

If we nerfed all of the top performing builds we'd still have no way to scale up static damage effects into the epic levels, which is the whole point of melee power.

Sev~

They way I read your posts in part is Criticals scale but other forms of damage do not. Maybe nerf criticals and buff damage in general. Giving mobs fortification that allows sneak damage is one relatively simple way to do this. With spells you have you could apply a magic based fortification. I really think there is another solution that is going to keep this game more inline with D&D and give you the same result that you desire and also take a lot less dev time.

Edit: You could lower mob hit points a little which is an inverse bump to player damage in general.

[Monkey_Archer]

You might want to stop reading up on Swashbuckler builds and actually play one.

You are correct. I don't play swashbucklers and I have no right to comment on their power level, and I'm not sure why I got sidetracked into that.
My original point still stands however. There is no reason why arbitrary exceptions should be made just so swashbucklers can take 2 combat styles at once, when no other build can. All of the benefits of of shield mastery can be transfered directly to the skirmisher enhancement as compensation if necessary. My point was about clarity and consistency, not about character builds, power level or nerfs.

OK, I'm doing what I hate most in these official discussions; I'm getting sidetracked in side-arguments and derailing the thread. No more. Done. Apologies to all.

Agreed. My apologies as well.

[Monkey_Archer]

If we nerfed all of the top performing builds we'd still have no way to scale up static damage effects into the epic levels, which is the whole point of melee power.

Sev~

Why not do both?

[maddong]

Currently 5 at 100% and 1 blitzer equals 850% group damage.

Proposing 6 permablitzers for 350 x 6 equals 2100% group damage is just wrong. We will need to super inflate monster hp to have a challenge at all. En and eh may as well not exist.

Even without blitz you are proposing 1500% group damage.

No one will play any ranged builds since melee will also be getting prr mrr boosts (back to pew pew times).

You have to nerf if blitzing gets easier. Or just keep it how it is.

[tiamat1985]

If we nerfed all of the top performing builds we'd still have no way to scale up static damage effects into the epic levels, which is the whole point of melee power.

Sev~

How melee power can scale up a light damage is totally incomprehensible. You could simply go the same way you went with the swashbuckler tree (damage that scale with the right spellpower).
And can you tell me why scaling up static damage effect have to scale up ALL the base damage?

Seriously, all melee builds in my guild but paladins are doing a good job in EE dps without this huge buff, and they are blitzing almost only when we need a blitzer in a raid. GMoF is less dps then a blitzer? Of course, is not a full dps ED! I have greater defences in GMoF then in LD. Right now LD is a cool ED to solo quests and a nice epic moment in party when needed, you don't have to blitz all the time! EDs are still very different, don't make every ED looks the same please.
I'm very concerned about this, i love this game and i know many people that are not playing it anymore because it is too easy right now, if you are making it even easier i think i will leave myself and i'm sure i will not be the only one.