Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[jakeelala]

THATS a really good point, MORE powercreep. Things will be even more easier. gosh i just dont wanan think about a party of 6 blitzing ppl. seriously ***.

We run multiple blitzers all the time in groups I'm in on Khyber. All you have to do is split/bunnyhop. Don't attack the same group of mobs the other guy blitzing is

[droid327]

Beyond just ranged Blitzing...are you going to add Ranged Power to Epic levels or any EDs? The only viable way to get decent DPS in Epic with ranged is FotW. Its just as restrictive and just as much of a crutch as Blitz is for melee right now. Aside from Monkchers, there really isn't any overpowered archer builds to worry about.

Melee can already outdamage ranged. If the "Ranged Power Pass" doesn't follow shortly after Melee, I'm worried that Ranged will end back up where it was long ago, completely underpowered and untenable for endgame.

Also, I'm worried you're introducing a *whole lot* more statistics to an already numerically-heavy game, which makes it even harder to learn and understand. Its D&D, so numbers are going to be central - but why do we need another two Spellpowers (and another Resistance)? Why cant things just scale based on your Epic Level + Epic Destiny Tier, since that's almost what you're doing anyway? Why not consolidate your various Damage Bonus sources (Deadly, Stat-to-dmg, PA, etc. etc.) into the Melee Power system, just have one unified stat that boosts your damage?

More stats just mean more power creep, ultimately, and letting Ranged+Melee Power affect regular attacks, and not just special attacks, kinda reeks of power creep. They also mean that 80% of the gear that came out in the "before time" ends up obsolete because only a handful of new items offer the new must-have stat.

[Scrabbler]

In the last developer diary we discussed Physical Resistance Rating, Magical Resistance Rating, Melee Power, Ranged Power

It looks like that by default, everything that gives Melee Power should also give Ranged Power, unless there's a specific reason (balance or theme) for it to benefit only one or the other.

Then you can create the term "Strike Power" to mean the combination of Melee and Ranged Power, much like Universal Spell Power means the combination of 14 kinds of spellpow.

[blerkington]

Hi,

This looks like a proxy nerf for melee/ranged hybrids who run in shiradi.

I mean that both in terms of relatively reducing the overall damage output available to those builds, and decreasing the usefulness of the CC abilities available under that destiny. In regards to my second point, if our damage output and defences are generally scaled up, the value of CC abilities decreases.

After all of the discussion of whether or not fury is OP (edit: for archers), it looks like you are planning to make the Fury destiny even more powerful overall. That seems like an odd choice to me.

I'd like you to consider adding melee power to the core enhancements of the shiradi destiny. That won't do anything to increase the power of caster builds using the destiny, but it would do a lot to make the destiny a more viable choice for hybrid, skirmisher-type builds.

Additionally, could you say something about your plans for ranged power. I'm assuming you intend to provide a maximum amount of ranged power to the shiradi destiny.

This puts you in a difficult position with other destinies, as those people who enjoy playing ranged outside shiradi aren't going to thank you for providing less than full ranged damage power in LD and Fury (edit: and SD).

On the other hand, if you do that, then you provide more combined melee and ranged power to what are already the stronger destinies. That will mean people choosing not to use these destinies fall behind.

Looking forward to a response to this issue.

Thanks.

[Scrabbler]

Here are our current changes for Master's Blitz and epic play for melee.

I see that the change you're NOT doing to Master's Blitz is to make it work like an Epic Moment is meant to: as a temporary thing you activate at important times, but can't keep going indefinitely.

If you're accepting that Blitz will be intentionally a long-lasting effect, maybe you should look at some other Epic Moments (Shadowdancer, Magist, etc) and see if they're at all adequate (compared to Blitz they probably have less duration and less DPS benefit)

[Jasparion]

Before I spend any time thinking about any of this I have a single question:

How willing are you to listen to the players when they start to show you evidence of the numbers (both for PRR/MRR and also the DPS) of these changes, and then use that evidence to modify your changes to ensure that some semblance of balance is provide which will allow players the option to actually play different types of styles in EE content and not feel like they are are piking and dragging down the group?

Thanks.

[Aelonwy]

Yes please.

All destinies should offer something for ALL builds.

So all "Melee" destinies really need to be "Combat destiny's" as opposed to "casting" destinys. They all need ranged power, even if it's not as much as melee power since melee are behind.

But what the heck is a ranged character going to do in US right now?

Or GMoF?

Or LD after your changes?

This^!
Essentially the problem is that if the devs feel ranged builds are exploiting by using LD or FoTW destinies than they are basically saying there is one and only one destiny designed for ranged, that being Shiradi, and that ranged builds should suck it up and suffer through all other destinies if they should choose that combat style and want to grind fate points and slots. In which case they either need to make Shiradi way better for ranged (and no buffing casters) or they need to recognize that ranged is a combat style like 2hf, swf, twf, s&b and deserves just as many options (i.e. destinies that can be played in that combat style.)

That is the issue. Either ranged is a combat style or it isn't, if it is, it deserves a similar treatment to other combat styles, maybe not to the same level of power but surely it should not be ignored for all other destinies and I don't mean a single epic enhancement working for it I mean the epic moments disallowing ranged.

(Btw to all and sundry I have never used Blitz with ranged, but I feel its either self-centered or selfish to yell exploit about it when ranged players will want and need to cross that destiny just as much as others, and also why shouldn't they have other options beside just Shiradi as a final destiny?) If Blitz bothers ppl so much than perhaps an alternate epic moment in the melee centric destinies meant to work with ranged would be a better option?

[Delacroix21]

You forgot fatesinger giving +60% damage.


Or has that horrible destiny been abandoned?



P.S. I like the changes otherwise =)

[bbqzor]

I will bring up the possibility of adding the Melee Power to the innate abilities of Fatesinger as well. I think that might be an oversight.

Please do, it would be a shame for bards to lose out on such a huge change right after getting updated.

Let me discuss ranged Master's Blitz with the team. If it's bugged to work with ranged this might not be the time to fix it. We aren't looking to nerf builds. We could, for example, make Master's Blitz increase Ranged Power to match its current functionality.

Again, please do. This is the correct attitude, imo, and good to see for a change. Additionally, it might be a good time to acknowledge several other ranged related things. For example, Reign in Fatesinger works with ranged, maybe it should add some ranged power. While the tree is melee focused, that ability is one ranged guys might want. Similar, Shiradi Echos with ranged haste (while other echos should maybe get melee power or spell power). Whirling Wrists in Shiradi is another ability where ranged power has potential, although that tree as a whole should perhaps have ranged power.

Long story short... the melee power pass has to be PART of a destiny adjustment as a whole. Otherwise its just going to create new winners and losers, leaving us in the same state now (ie, some destinies are clearly good, others are clearly bad, itll just shuffle which is which). The goal, it seems, is for everything to be largely viable for everyone, with the obvious caveat that there will be some that fit best for each character. But it gets away from the "youre totally hosed cause youre in an off destiny" situation, and into one which seems more like "well, you get +150 instead of +250, but thats not so bad while you do that round of past lives"... a much better position for game longevity and overall balance.

Still seems like a trap (theres simply so many things to catch, its almost impossible that none will slip through), but if you do it RIGHT, it could be a total win.

[Cetus]

A few comments as I digest this:

1. Giving everybody 150/250 melee power essentially means that every one will have 6 charges of blitz full-time. I'm not a fan of this change at all because the content is easy enough. Everybody running around with 6/10 blitz charges fulltime (effectively) will continue to dilute the DPS differences between builds at all. Why even spec for damage anymore when you can be sorta half specced and still obliterate things? Its not necessary...make people work for their damage. Blitz kinda did that provided that you had competitive members in your party.

2. Since other trees, in addition to the dreadnaught tree, are receiving 60 melee power out of the 250 that blitz currently provides, then the relative power of blitz is going down. This seems to be intended though - I don't like this change. It removes the skill with which you need to time, execute, and maintain blitz with competitive party members.

3. Wouldn't it be better to just keep your 150/250 spellpower in an alternate tree, and just use adrenaline? We haven't heard any mention on whether or not we'll be able to keep blitz indefinitely in, say, a boss fight where we keep attacking it and constantly keeping our charges maxed.

By the way, how does it charge anyway? Would it just be on a successful hit? Crit? Vorpal?

4. THF Feats- So, the shield mastery feats are even better than the THF feats now. Not only did SWF receive 30% stacking haste boost, 200% stat benefit, they are now receiving a potential 20 extra melee power since they use shields? What about TWF? Where's their melee power attached to the TWF feats?

The THF melee power should be 10 per tier to at least somewhat incentivize taking them. SWF continues to receive a proxy benefit here, don't you think it received enough?

The shield mastery feats give 3% + 10 melee power, 8% + 5 melee power, respectively now. This is more powerful than what THF feats currently get because I value the doublestrike bonuses well above the measly glancing damage.

[SacramentoSquid]

I think all these changes have some really good potential to make melee other than blitzing be competitive, which should only increase build diversity and I look forward to actually testing the changes when implemented.

I have one issue though, either my understanding of the following is wrong, or your numbers are off.

Greetings,
By making it scale with 200% Melee Power an epic character with even the base 150 Melee Power from levels and innate abilities will see an increase from 18d6 to an equivalent of 44d6 damage.
Sev~

To me, this says that you have 150 melee power, 90 from epic levels and 60 from ED cores, and the example attack recieves 200% of the bonus melee power, so your final calculation should be (100+2.0*150)/100 or 400/100 = 4x damage, so (18x4)d6, or 72d6 for the final damage, not 44d6. Am I misunderstanding how that would work?

[Qhualor]

A few comments as I digest this:

1. Giving everybody 150/250 melee power essentially means that every one will have 6 charges of blitz full-time. I'm not a fan of this change at all because the content is easy enough. Everybody running around with 6/10 blitz charges fulltime (effectively) will continue to dilute the DPS differences between builds at all. Why even spec for damage anymore when you can be sorta half specced and still obliterate things? Its not necessary...make people work for their damage. Blitz kinda did that provided that you had competitive members in your party.

this was my intial impression too. it feels a little too cookie cutter to me and making Blitz a no brainer, as if it already wasn't.

[Severlin]

A few comments as I digest this:

1. Giving everybody 150/250 melee power essentially means that every one will have 6 charges of blitz full-time. I'm not a fan of this change at all because the content is easy enough. Everybody running around with 6/10 blitz charges fulltime (effectively) will continue to dilute the DPS differences between builds at all. Why even spec for damage anymore when you can be sorta half specced and still obliterate things? Its not necessary...make people work for their damage. Blitz kinda did that provided that you had competitive members in your party.

Not sure where that 150/250 number comes from.

2. Since other trees, in addition to the dreadnaught tree, are receiving 60 melee power out of the 250 that blitz currently provides, then the relative power of blitz is going down. This seems to be intended though - I don't like this change. It removes the skill with which you need to time, execute, and maintain blitz with competitive party members.

~ We have a lot of feedback that the mechanics of Master's Blitz makes players using it actively not want to group and players who don't use it not want to group with those who do. There are instances of people getting upset when a non-blitzer gets a killing blow. That's not good.

4. THF Feats- So, the shield mastery feats are even better than the THF feats now. Not only did SWF receive 30% stacking haste boost, 200% stat benefit, they are now receiving a potential 20 extra melee power since they use shields? What about TWF? Where's their melee power attached to the TWF feats?

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

The THF melee power should be 10 per tier to at least somewhat incentivize taking them. SWF continues to receive a proxy benefit here, don't you think it received enough?

The shield mastery feats give 3% + 10 melee power, 8% + 5 melee power, respectively now. This is more powerful than what THF feats currently get because I value the doublestrike bonuses well above the measly glancing damage.

Two handed weapons have higher base damage, more strength bonus, and extra Power Attack.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Ranged builds will be looked into at some future date, but not for the Armor Up update.

Sev~

[Monkey_Archer]

1. Giving everybody 150/250 melee power essentially means that every one will have 6 charges of blitz full-time. I'm not a fan of this change at all because the content is easy enough. Everybody running around with 6/10 blitz charges fulltime (effectively) will continue to dilute the DPS differences between builds at all. Why even spec for damage anymore when you can be sorta half specced and still obliterate things? Its not necessary...make people work for their damage. Blitz kinda did that provided that you had competitive members in your party.

While I don't agree with your position that blitz is healthy because it takes effort to maintain, I do agree that giving all melees a permanent 6/10 blitz is even more absurd. Those numbers need to half that at most (equivalent to 3 blitz stacks)

2. Since other trees, in addition to the dreadnaught tree, are receiving 60 melee power out of the 250 that blitz currently provides, then the relative power of blitz is going down. This seems to be intended though - I don't like this change. It removes the skill with which you need to time, execute, and maintain blitz with competitive party members.

I really don't see any skill involved with timing or executing blitz. You either take the lead and basically solo the quest for the group, or some caster takes your stacks and you get to pike like the rest of the non-blitzing melees while the caster solos the quest.

Since this change is centered around reducing the relative power of blitz, I really think the entire Legendary dreadnought tree should be redesigned around tactics. Why does Legendary Dreadnought even need to maintain the same level of damage anyway? Why not give it more tactics bonuses, reduced cooldown on stun/trip, additional effects when tactics are successful, etc... That would be a lot more skill based then wondering if the caster is gonna steal my blitz...

4. THF Feats- So, the shield mastery feats are even better than the THF feats now. Not only did SWF receive 30% stacking haste boost, 200% stat benefit, they are now receiving a potential 20 extra melee power since they use shields? What about TWF? Where's their melee power attached to the TWF feats?

The THF melee power should be 10 per tier to at least somewhat incentivize taking them. SWF continues to receive a proxy benefit here, don't you think it received enough?

The shield mastery feats give 3% + 10 melee power, 8% + 5 melee power, respectively now. This is more powerful than what THF feats currently get because I value the doublestrike bonuses well above the measly glancing damage.

I didn't even notice that. What really needs to happen is for all weapon styles to become stances. Having SWF and shield mastery stack is stupid. Almost as stupid as having druid wolves also stack TWF on top...

[Monkey_Archer]

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

Two handed weapons have higher base damage, more strength bonus, and extra Power Attack.

Sev~

Are druids stacking TWF, SWF and natural fighting also going to be nerfed?

Two handed weapons do not receive more strength bonus then single weapon fighting.

[blerkington]

Ranged builds will be looked into at some future date, but not for the Armor Up update.

Sev~

Hi,

My point still stands.

Shiradi is already quite a low dps destiny for archery builds.

The changes you are proposing makes it an even worse choice for hybrids, since it will be the only non caster destiny not receiving a melee power increase.

Is it your intention that this destiny be useful for archers, part-time or full-time? Or is it really only a caster only destiny?

Please add melee power to the shiradi cores to bring it in line with the other martial type destinies.

Thanks.

[Cetus]

Not sure where that 150/250 number comes from.

You mentioned yourself that a level 28 character will receive 90 melee power.

You also mentioned that multiple trees will now grant 60 stacking melee power by virtue of their cores.

This is 150 total melee power

Blitz currently gives an equivalent of 250 melee power when fully charged

If the above are true, then it necessarily becomes true that most characters (provided they run in any of the participating destiny's that give 60 melee power as part of their cores) will now have a permanent equivalent of 6 blitz charges. (1 charge = 25 melee power, 6 charges = 150).

We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.

This isn't just swashbuckler. Any character who may not have bard levels can still acquire the SWF feats, which as we have already established, give 30% attack speed and 200% stat benefit. Now, these same characters (if not monk splashed) generally acquire an orb or a shield in their offhand to augment their DPS by the doublestrike values they provide AND to twist an additional 7% from legendary shield mastery from sentinel tree.

Now, this setup gains an additional boost via melee spellpower. This isn't a swashbuckler problem - its a SWF problem. This fighting style, in my opinion, has received ample benefit already.

Two handed weapons have higher base damage, more strength bonus, and extra Power Attack.

Compare a thunder-forged falchion to a thunder-forged bastard sword or a thunder-forged dwarven axe. There's a situation where a single weapon has a higher base damage than a two-hander. A thunder-forged greatsword is just about equal. If you take a thunder-forged greataxe, it has a 1d12, minor advantage, at the expense of a ridiculous deficit in crit profile. You see my point.

Additionally, THF has more strength bonus until you introduced the greater single weapon fighting feat, which makes said bastard sword receive 50% MORE stat benefit than your two-hander.

Extra power attack is an OK perk, but compare that to the 30% permanent haste boost, and all of these shield mastery derived double strike bonuses that SWF gets and it looks insignificant at best.

Bottomline: THF needs some kind of a competitive edge, and it isn't receiving it even during this melee power treatment. TWF was ignored entirely.

[Severlin]

Are druids stacking TWF, SWF and natural fighting also going to be nerfed?

That is a bug.

Two handed weapons do not receive more strength bonus then single weapon fighting.

Yes, because they have glancing blows, better base weapon damage that multiplies with +x[W] effects, and 20% melee power which will multiply general weapon bonuses which the attribute bonus does not.

That said, if you are suggesting that SWF is very strong in Strength builds where the attribute bonus is exaggerated then I'd agree with you.

Sev~

[Zakharov]

The tops melee builds using Master's Blitz effectively won't actually see a DPS increase. These changes bring the builds lagging behind closer to the top melee builds.

Sev~

Isn't this a backwards way of balancing things? If 1 ability is more powerful than all others then fix that 1 ability, don't change everything else in the game.