Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Cetus]

**** Cetus. There's been quite a few times where I've read one of your posts and shook my head or snickered without bothering to post about it. We've a great many differences of opinion that I simply haven't bothered to try and debate with you...


...But ^that^...

That's some **** fine reasoning, and some of the best suggestions of how to intelligently arrive at the goals the Devs are ostensibly trying to achieve. Well said and well done, I hope they listen. I'm not sure I completely agree with the numbers distribution, but I think the best way to arrive at appropriate numbers will be through Lama playtesting rather than further theory crafting.

Thanks!

[N-0cturn]

Like I stated before I think it would have been better to keep the gain of charges on-kill. In that case I would suggest +150 Melee Power for Blitz. Yes blitzer would lose a little dps but this only seems fair considering the new static charges, no pre-charging and amplification of effects.

On the other hand your current plan seems balanced. I only fear that you will get a lot or rage from people that miss their old blitz experience.

[Failedlegend]

Like I stated before I think it would have been better to keep the gain of charges on-kill. In that case I would suggest +150 Melee Power for Blitz. Yes blitzer would lose a little dps but this only seems fair considering the new static charges, no pre-charging and amplification of effects.

On the other hand your current plan seems balanced. I only fear that you will get a lot or rage from people that miss their old blitz experience.

The on-kill part of blitz is causing alot of strife amongst players, it has to be changed.

[Qhualor]

going to continue stating that an ability that relies on last hit kills is a bad ability. i prefer the charging of Blitz on hit and rather see it closer to what Unbridled Fury does. on that note, a good way to challenge Blitz with another melee option is to allow UF to stay active much the same way as Blitz.

[jakeelala]

I would rather...
SNIP

I said it previously though I don't remember which thread: I love that blitz is an active Epic Moment (there are no others) that actually requires you to change or emphasize your gameplay in order to get the most use out of it. If you don't do it well, it brings very little to the table. Lose your blitz and it's 0% (until CD and recharge). I wish all epic moments were this active. The only ones similar simply have a charging mechanic, but no real active way to keep them going if you play well.

This is what makes DDO different from other MMO's: Active Combat. Lately, DDO had mostly felt like it was at best in the mud stuck, or at worst losing that edge. Tumbling and Shield Blocking are mostly useless with the exception of Tanking a mob which is done increasingly rarely these days. Better just to swing and get the aggro then bother with pesky intimidate cooldowns. It's really just about jumping and fast movement at this point*. But blitzing, blitzing actually made this game more intense and more fast-paced. Which is awesome. Losing that VERY unique aspect of gameplay, frankly and on balance, will make DDO a less-rich gameplay experience.

I really think the Blitz mechanic should stay, because if you allow other Destiny's to be ALMOST as good, but never as good, then the people who don't want intense gameplay will have alternatives that don't make them gimps, and the people who love that part of melee combat (and really, who doesn't LOVE just smashing face?) can just keep right on going and playing LD and Blitzing. You would have to change the mechanic at least slightly however, or in large groups the newly buffed others might make the stack harder to control.

One way to fix that:

Make the Blitz stacks go to 25 (a little longer to charge all the way)
@10% Damage per stack,
Expiring one stack every 8 seconds, for 200 seconds total to lose it if you don't keep it charged.

But instead of on kill, make it keyed off of a tactical ability (any Cleave/Trip/Sunder type attack, including Monk, Wolf/Bear, maybe Shadar-Kai whip/who cares?) used against a hostile target. This in my mind would be the perfect blend of active combat, flexibility, and wider accessibility for more players. I would however add: On-Kill, gain up to 5 additional stacks of Masters Blitz for +300% damage total. So you can play for the kill for the last 50%, but if you're fighting a boss, you can keep up the Blitz, or play it more casually. Perhaps the ratio should be adjusted to 200% from tactical stacks, and 100% from on-kill boosts. Same concept however. Keep the good part of Blitz, but make it play nicer with other ED's when they can kill things too.

For ranged, it would need to be keyed off something else. Either critical/vorpal, or if they can key things off activated ranged attacks (Sniper, Slayer, Leg Shot, etc.).

*(hint, hint: make tumbling movement worth doing, either more move/speed or Evasion-like version of shield block where when you're tumbling and not doing DPS you're basically unkillable, at least if you maximize it and maybe take a feat/enhancement).

[jakeelala]

The on-kill part of blitz is causing alot of strife amongst players, it has to be changed.

Some players absolutely LOVE it. Me included. Ranged and Melee.

[BDog77]

UF to stay active much the same way as Blitz.

Now there's the man with the plan!!!! As it is, it only procs once every 3 seconds, of the 2 having Unbridled Fury active all the time is much less gamebreaking than having Blitz all the time.

[Qhualor]

Now there's the man with the plan!!!! As it is, it only procs once every 3 seconds, of the 2 having Unbridled Fury active all the time is much less gamebreaking than having Blitz all the time.

the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of UF rivaling Blitz. if it wasn't for the long cool down, it would certainly give Blitz a run for its money. obviously barbarians would profit it more from it, but yet another reason for players to go pure.

[jakeelala]

the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of UF rivaling Blitz. if it wasn't for the long cool down, it would certainly give Blitz a run for its money. obviously barbarians would profit it more from it, but yet another reason for players to go pure.

I think UF should have stacks like Masters Blitz that go up everytime you take damage. So as long as you're in combat taking damage, you're keeping up UF.

That's much more Primal and Furious and Wild, and more powerful. Who isn't taking damage in Melee combat?

[Nayus]

@Sev.: Since melee balance is our topic, it would be a nice time to talk about Earth Stance. Right now it's an incredible boost to any melee that can stay centered. With 2 levels and 1 feat you gain not only access to +1 Critical Multiplier (which is huge, only Barbarians get something like this), +25PRR, Evasion but also access to the bugged Ocean Stance that gives a 10/20/30 dodge (instead of 1/2/3...) and a LOT of other boosts. At Epic Levels we're given the choice to twist Dance of Flowers and get 1.5[W].
Staying centered isn't a big deal for a lot of builds and I'm certain that many (if not all) possible combinations of Paladin that were created when these changes first came out involved monk levels.

I feel very, very sad that I am forced to splash monk levels if I want to play an efficient melee in Epics.

[Stoner81]

<insert lots of good stuff!>

Somebody make this man a developer and pronto! Pure genius!

If Blitz is currently too powerful on Live then why isn't everybody (and I mean that literally) crushing EE content? It isn't just about Blitz and nerfing the only good epic moment for melee toons is frankly out right utter stupidity! When are you people going to learn... don't nerf anything and buff other stuff to make it worth while to be looked and considered.

Stoner81.

[Nayus]

I would rather you keep the max at the current 250, with the on-kill charge mechanic. Its king of killing trash, keep it that way. Let a different destiny excel at boss fights, instead of blitz. This way you can design future content as boss heavy or trash heavy in order to impose external limitations on these epic moments.

<snip>

Why not just make it give a debuff like Vulnerable... then we can exterminate that annoying mechanic. And make it proc every second so people will actually try to melee instead of running circles waiting for Cleave to go off-cooldown. I can guarantee that it will require FAR more player skill and twitch.

There might be people who enjoy blitz but there are far more who dislike it. And also, most blitzers are either soloing or "group-soloing", yeah, there are 5 other people in the group but it's ALL ABOUT MEEEEH.

To add to this, after you get the first couple stacks there isn't *much* risk of losing blitz either way, you get up to 10 stacks and you lose lose a single stack at a time, every 1/4 minutes. Unless you spend 150 seconds without killing anything, 2 minutes and 30 seconds without killing anything, you won't lose blitz.

All it does is punish players who need to go afk because kinda... the world is round and it's spinning.

EDIT: It's even more funny that Cetus was actually agreeing with the changes but as soon as "nerf" showed up he starts whining again. Talk about egocentric, please.

EDIT2: Debuff example: "You were dealt a wound by an absolute master of combat, you start to lose the strength and willpower to protect yourself - For the next 2 seconds you take X% (adjustable value, put anything you find balanced/powerful here) more damage from players in "Master's Blitz". This stacks up to Y times."

[Skeen]

Blitz should NOT give ranged power.

Agreed. Do not let ranged use blitz. There is no reason for it. Furthermore, Adrenaline should not apply to all arrows in a many shot. If you leave UF bugged so it applies to all arrows then please make it so when i Cleave every mob that comes in contact with my blade has Adrenaline applied to it instead of only the first.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I'm just going to reiterate my earlier request that Shiradi cores be included in the melee power buff. The arguments for doing this are below.

It should remain a viable choice for melee/ranged hybrids, because other martial and primal destinies are. Don't force hybrids into fewer ED choices than we currently have now. There is no reason shiradi should be seen as a ranged only, or caster and ranged only ED, when other EDs add power to both melee and ranged styles.

The shiradi destiny is not so strong for ranged combat that adding a modest 'keeping pace' increase in melee DPS will change its melee or overall DPS standing relative to the other destinies. It's just a matter of remaining competitive, which appears to be one of your design goals.

At the moment, the destiny offers no DPS abilities for melee. It will be falling further behind other destinies as the result of these changes, if no melee power is added to the core abilities.

Other martial and primal destinies already include abilities which work with ranged, some of which are very strong. From what you have said in this thread, those abilities will continue to work. It may not be clear to you, but Shiradi is already considered quite suboptimal and a flavour choice even for ranged comabt by the community's more serious ranged players and builders.

Shiradi is the only martial or primal destiny not receiving the buff. The melee power buff is even being provided to a divine destiny which is already a strong choice both for melees and casters, and additional of it to an arcane destiny (Fatesinger) seems to be under consideration.

Lastly, I'd like to support the idea that no change to melee power be rolled out onto live servers until the ranged power pass is done. Several other posters have already made good arguments for what it should be done that way.

Thanks.

[CaptainSpacePony]

It seems like the system is being implemented right alongside melee power.

I agree that it seems that way, but you and I may be overlooking something. So, if it can easily be implemented at the same time as MP, great, if not, I'd rather wait for one than wait for both.

[Talonaise]

Why not just make it give a debuff like Vulnerable... then we can exterminate that annoying mechanic. And make it proc every second so people will actually try to melee instead of running circles waiting for Cleave to go off-cooldown. I can guarantee that it will require FAR more player skill and twitch.

There might be people who enjoy blitz but there are far more who dislike it. And also, most blitzers are either soloing or "group-soloing", yeah, there are 5 other people in the group but it's ALL ABOUT MEEEEH.

To add to this, after you get the first couple stacks there isn't *much* risk of losing blitz either way, you get up to 10 stacks and you lose lose a single stack at a time, every 1/4 minutes. Unless you spend 150 seconds without killing anything, 2 minutes and 30 seconds without killing anything, you won't lose blitz.

All it does is punish players who need to go afk because kinda... the world is round and it's spinning.

EDIT: It's even more funny that Cetus was actually agreeing with the changes but as soon as "nerf" showed up he starts whining again. Talk about egocentric, please.

EDIT2: Debuff example: "You were dealt a wound by an absolute master of combat, you start to lose the strength and willpower to protect yourself - For the next 2 seconds you take X% (adjustable value, put anything you find balanced/powerful here) more damage from players in "Master's Blitz". This stacks up to Y times."

I am not sure where you get that more people dislike blitz. I do not play mele and yet I have no issues with blitzers and of our entire group I only know of one player who does not like it, and he pugs a lot. I find that until the update of the bard, blitzers were the only mele who had a prayer of keeping up with the Sorcs and Monchers. Why is everyone so upset about a tactic that makes mele actually desirable to play? To top it all off, blitzing already does take skill to play well. I have seen a lot of poor blitzers not be able to keep up their blitz.

I will point out, that I do not hold back for blitzers, if they can't keep their blitz while i am nuking, then that is not my problem. I do not run with groups that "prep" kills for blitzers. We all run fast and it is not and has never been a "group solo". The guys I run with do very well at keeping their own blitz up. But they are not the end all be all of the quest. -- Other classes can match them in kills, and keep right up with them in the game. I am sorry, if you or others are have having problems doing this, it says more about your builds than it does the blitzer build.

Edit --- why wouldn't a player discuss issues that affect the toons they are playing??? That is not egocentric, that is intelligent.

[Cetus]

Why not just make it give a debuff like Vulnerable... then we can exterminate that annoying mechanic. And make it proc every second so people will actually try to melee instead of running circles waiting for Cleave to go off-cooldown. I can guarantee that it will require FAR more player skill and twitch.

I'm sure you can guarantee everything underneath the sun. However, this is a terrible idea for painfully obvious reasons.

There might be people who enjoy blitz but there are far more who dislike it. And also, most blitzers are either soloing or "group-soloing", yeah, there are 5 other people in the group but it's ALL ABOUT MEEEEH.

Two completely erroneous and unsubstantiated assertions.

1. More people who dislike blitz than who enjoy it? Do you have any evidence regarding the entire melee population and their preference? No, I didn't think so....Guess what? I don't either, therefore I try neglecting to make such sweeping generalizations.

2. The people with who I run, contribute as much, and sometimes more than I do when I have a full blitz going. Some happen to be sorcs, others happen to be archers, still others happen to be fellow blitzers, and even still others are sometimes druids or favored souls. Learn to play your character, and even without blitz you'll contribute a significant amount. Blitz happens to make playing melees active - and most of all - fun (for me).

To add to this, after you get the first couple stacks there isn't *much* risk of losing blitz either way, you get up to 10 stacks and you lose lose a single stack at a time, every 1/4 minutes. Unless you spend 150 seconds without killing anything, 2 minutes and 30 seconds without killing anything, you won't lose blitz.

Lets add to this mob availability, doors through which blitz resets, competent players who shouldn't give a **** about stealing your blitz if they are capable (you shouldn't impose your wishes onto your party members, I've already mentioned that the problem with blitz is often the entitled toddler using it), and bosses, the tracker's trap giant has gotten me to lose blitz a few times under certain circumstances.

My experience (which I demonstrate unconditionally) disagrees with your continued barrage of assertions.

All it does is punish players who need to go afk because kinda... the world is round and it's spinning.

EDIT: It's even more funny that Cetus was actually agreeing with the changes but as soon as "nerf" showed up he starts whining again. Talk about egocentric, please.

Adding to blatant assertion we have the typical ad hominem. I agreed with the introduction of a melee power entity, because it enables devs to introduce relevant forms of alternative damage, and it allows me to better track my damage rating by (hopefully) seeing a numerical representation of it. I also partially agreed with Sevs initial proposal while detailing the parts I found a problem with. I agreed more with the second proposal because it was a less radical change. Notice - that all of the proposals with which I agreed kept blitzes absolute power unchanged, despite the reduction in its relative power. Now that blitzes absolute power is nerfed, I no longer maintain my position. What's egocentric about this? If anything, its consistent.

EDIT2: Debuff example: "You were dealt a wound by an absolute master of combat, you start to lose the strength and willpower to protect yourself - For the next 2 seconds you take X% (adjustable value, put anything you find balanced/powerful here) more damage from players in "Master's Blitz". This stacks up to Y times."

Again with this...maybe they should make some competing epic moment resemble this mechanic. This could be the boss DPS epic moment.

[Monkey_Archer]

Why not just make it give a debuff like Vulnerable... then we can exterminate that annoying mechanic.

This is actually an amazing idea. Blitz stacks could build at 1 melee power per attack, up to 100 stacks, then fade at 1 stack every 1-2 second(s). This would make it reasonably easy to get to 100 stacks (cleave a group of mobs a few times) and still promote active gameplay without keeping the on kill mechanic.

edit: guess i misinterpreted the idea. I don't like the idea of having blitz apply a debuff on certain mobs, but do like the idea of treating stacks like vulnerable.

[Arlathen]

The original design was much better.

Nerfing Master's Blitz without changing EE Mob HP means Melee's are going to have a harder time in EE as we have to spend more time in front of the Mob killing it.

And in what world is an Innate 75% Melee Power vs. 175% Melee Power when Blitzing going to convince me to play a different Melee Destiny?! Nope, sorry, not me.

And this is a theme-player who wants his melee characters to run Primal Avatar or Shadowdancer and not feel gimp compared to the Blitzing Centered-Kensai next to me. With the original design giving 150 Melee Power vs. the 250 of the Blitzer, I would of been much, much happier running a different destiny.

[Nayus]

I'm sure you can guarantee everything underneath the sun. However, this is a terrible idea for painfully obvious reasons.

I find it funny that you try to defeat my argument by targetting non-exact affirmations I did and then you try to degrade me by doing exactly the same thing (but in a much more arrogant manner). I was going to answer to your post but after reading it again it's full of assumptions that YOU made as a player.

Okay, let's be blunt here: I don't think a melee should run around in circles healing himself waiting for cleave. That's what a bad sorcerer does, he jumps around waiting for Fireball to go off again. A melee should stay in melee range and melee things. If you wanna kite things then go play a Caster or an Archer. Or better yet, a Ranger.