Armor Up - Developer Diary #1

[burningwind]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Sev~

not many people will consider shield, if you don't allow shield with single weapon fighting style... after all mostly people need to solo

imo the best thing to do is to introduce a feat, which allow anyone to swf with a shield~~~~

[Propane]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Sev~

I hope you have time to take a look at the allowable DEX (Dodge) limits for Mithral plating - it needs to be at least twice what it is now to go along with smaller shields...

[edrein]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Sev~

Please tell me you are also planning to turn the Dethek Runestone into a small shield as well. Otherwise that'd be another blow to druids, especially those that may be pure running in either Shadowdancer or Primal Avatar and have the appropriate evasion spots.

[Pseudograph]

I hope you have time to take a look at the allowable DEX (Dodge) limits for Mithral plating - it needs to be at least twice what it is now to go along with smaller shields...

A very good point-- The dex limitations of light shields and light armor "systems" will require "equivalence".

Higher dexterity will be both more advantageous and more commonly necessary with light shields.

Does mithril still equal light armor (I thought so) or do we have another problem with evasion?

Pseudograph

[Ayseifn]

Please tell me you are also planning to turn the Dethek Runestone into a small shield as well. Otherwise that'd be another blow to druids, especially those that may be pure running in either Shadowdancer or Primal Avatar and have the appropriate evasion spots.

Mithril and adamantine augments could be cool, raise or lower a shield or piece of armour by one category.

[Thar]

Although Paladins "got" 3 free feats, how many free feats do Fighters get again? Yet they get a free Tower Shield feat?

Also, I've asked a few times and I have never received an answer about the Paladin's new cleaves (one of which is a Tier 5 ability so it locks out the other trees) working with Momentum Swing and Lay Waste and Legendary Dreadnaught still needing Power Attack to work. If nothing changed in that ED, then Paladins still need to pick up those three feats for that ED or else it becomes another unfun ED, like Grandmaster is for Armor wearers.

you got 3 free feats if you use your tier 5 on that tree. if so your probably not a tank pally who needs the tower shield.

your other questions are very good to know what the intent is there.

[Zurrander]

I'm quite happy just knowing that Small Shields well be getting some love. But if the Devs would like us to WANT small shields (instead of being forced to use them) then their are a few things that need to be done. Here is a List of Attributes that would make me choose a Small Shield over any other shield in the game.

Have the Shield...
1. Grant Evasion (Might be too much?) "This could fit in Epic Orchard maybe?"
2. Grant No Fail on 1 Reflex (Not Quite OP, But Epic none the less) "another candidate for Epic Orchard?"
3. Have a Shield that Synergizes with the Paladin Class. it could regenerate "LOH/Smites/Turns" or improve Pally Auras
4. Grant Extra Reflex Saves or Dex
5. Grant Dodge or Incorporeal
6. Grant Healing Amp
7. Grant Mobility or Improved Shield Bash (not gonna trade Wall of Wood or Purple Dragon Shield for this, but its still nice.)

No. 4 and up would make me never want a Large/Tower Shield (on my Evasion Tank) again. The rest are just very nice to have.

[Nascoe]

The various incarnations of Shield of Morning have been increased in stats as part of the changes. (I am traveling at the moment and don't have access to the precise changes.)

Sev~

Any chance you guys manage to add bucklers (for swashbuckling) and light shields to thunderfoged too? That would at least allow many to have a go at building their own solid combination of things on a shield that fit their builds after the update

[LordTigerDawn]

I'm quite happy just knowing that Small Shields well be getting some love. But if the Devs would like us to WANT small shields (instead of being forced to use them) then their are a few things that need to be done. Here is a List of Attributes that would make me choose a Small Shield over any other shield in the game.

Have the Shield...
1. Grant Evasion (Might be too much?) "This could fit in Epic Orchard maybe?"

You have guessed just the same as I have, that orchard will have a "Ring of Evasion" in the loot tables. Since all light armour etc. is being balanced defensively to having evasion as a pre-req, this will mean they have to have it available for those classes that do not get evasion naturally. This will also put monk on par with fighter as a 2 class splash, since I bet the ring is lvl 20, and there will be an lvl 28 rare augment for it otherwise (green I bet, orange is meridian, and purple just does not fit).

Other random guessing, a rare lvl 28 purple augment that gives +1 profane to all abilities (to take the place of the litany).

[bbqzor]

Basically Sev asked us to look for the most worthless shields in the game, so he could upgrade them and convert them to small size.
You can guess which shield I nominated...

Yes, I blocked any thoughts of changing several other shields into small including Wall of Wood, Skyvault, and Bulwark explaining in detail that they are beloved in their own way. The Devs listened, and these shield remain as they are.

Just wanted to say thanks on this front. It would have been beyond horrible to see those items (and others) effectively destroyed over this, which would have simply left a different itemization gap in its wake. At least this way, (almost) no one will be impacted. And, if the items get upgraded well, even those people using the old one may come out ahead. Good call for you and/or the council, just wanted to say ty for the work on that front. Not the direction I would have gone with it (who cares if light shields are used or not) but, with that direction in mind, it was a good place to make adjustments. Cheers.

Light & Darkness, ESoS, ToD Rings, Green Steel, Thunder Forged & the list goes on. Regardless of the build, if you want the best in slot (BTC) gear you gotta buy the pack it comes from; that's nothing new and I don't see why a shield using Evasion Tank should be an exception...

Its not about best in slot. Best in slot doesnt even enter into it. Its about having ANYTHING useable in the slot.

There are two, count them TWO static light shields in game currently. Chitin shield from harbor, and weathered targe from desert. Thats it.

The proposed change to Shield of Morning is basically intended to fill the gap of light shields while leveling, or at least adding a "legit" option at all, for levels 17-28. Basically, it gives people in the "iconic/epic" range an item to use while they get to cap (where, one assumes, the new Orchard shields will come into play).

That means an evasion s/b guy doesnt have non-best-in-slot choices, where they need a specific pack for "the good items". They need the pack for ANY item. Different story, and not one Im too fond of. But, as mentioned above, given the set of circumstances at hand its about the best solution one could work out. Just means that people into that build, in that level range, basically get one choice and it costs money. Not the end of the world, just pointing it out as less than ideal.

Please tell me you are also planning to turn the Dethek Runestone into a small shield as well. Otherwise that'd be another blow to druids, especially those that may be pure running in either Shadowdancer or Primal Avatar and have the appropriate evasion spots.

Bleh, please dont touch the Dethek shield, that would be a huge nerf to everyone else not in that boat, now that heavy shields will get MRR multipliers.

Rather, take pains to make sure that Weathered Targe (and certainly at least 1 orchard shield) become viable. Druids need a light non-metal shield option, weathered targe fits the bill for a current one. And they need an end game one, logically one of the orchard ones will fit that bill. Leave the rune shield as is so all the other wis-caster types, non evasion pallys, etc have their good item that they almost certainly spent 20+ raids getting.

I realize thats a blow to druids who need the +W and such from it, I have a druid with the shield who will occasionally swap around destinies for evasion. So I do get what youre saying, even though I admit more often than not Im not in an evasion setup. But its just not worth hurting a larger percentage of the player base over it, its a bad situation and someones gonna lose. Makes sense to make the loss as small as possible, which in this case means druids for the short term. With the other changes, simply keeping the runeshield and adding heavy armor isnt a bad idea either, so there are several options.

Ideally, beyond the weathered targe (which they really do need to ensure happens), they will revamp Natural Fighting (as alluded to in the other threads), and add Perfect Natural Fighting as an epic feat option, and push druids into a case where they arent lynch pinned around that single shield. And maybe make sure a similar shield effect is on the orchard light shield. Only with this combination of actions is it going to work out. And as you mention, with Primal allowing evasion specifically while in animal form, its a situation they really need to ensure remains viable. Just not by hosing that item for everyone.

[Thar]

Right now, its just numbers on paper. It will be easier to see how the changes work once we can start testing them on Lama. You are also forgetting about melee power, MRR, PRR, feats that would be freed up and shield and armor improvements. Mobs are supposed to get a pass as well. I see nothing but an increase in power and not less or "a wash".

I've read a lot of your posts in these threads. Its quite clear that you are the most unhappy with these changes and haven't seen anything positive, especially when its going to affect your evasion tank.

I do see some positive and commented on some of it. It's too little imo in the dps area.

The bard lines were very well done and it was my hope that pally would get the same treatment. The armor changes/prr/mrr are an interesting idea, but when i run the numbers it seems to be too much in certain extremes and will cause the game to go into easy mode. I posted about it on the intial thread but wasn't addressed. It still seems like the same overpowered change with 2xmrr. We don't necessarily want easy mode. We want survival mode for melee's. I think the mrr needs to not be set up to go to 2x. The Dev's listened to us during the bard changes and took care not to break builds or change things negatively. Everyone was happy (i think) with the bard changes. The pally changes seem to be too little. not enough help to the core trees existing today that need help. Vanguard may be great, but then it's pushing people into one mold. KOTC changes are nice in a vacuum, but making it the great cleave tier 5 makes it inaccessible to anyone wanting to use the tanking tree (or vanguard tier 5 which we assume will be good?). saving the feats is nice but what difference would it be to give us a separate cleave/greatcleave? that would be additional dps pallys need. tanks could take the lower one + cleave+ great cleave and be better than today. kotc could take all 4 or the 2 new and save feats for other items. As it looks today, DS would take cleave/great cleave as i would assume that the enhancement wouldn't be a prereq for great cleave so you couldn't take the enhancement cleave + greatcleave feat. so it doesn't help DS. It only helps kotc which is fine but throw DS some dps option too. What other feats would you take that you aren't already taking as a pally for dps? You don't get weapon specialization like a fighter. improved crit you have to take. improved shield mastery you have to take for doublestrike. to hit? who cares about to hit? who misses with the watered down to hit mechanism we have now. every other melee tree i look at has some attack/dps option even if it starts at .5w but the pally/figher tank tree. some attack for 1w with a short defensive buff would be perfect for a low level attack and not over powered compared to the other lines. And i've stated my thoughts on the tier 5 ability already that should be a must take in the tree which many people have stated, meh skipping if it's works as listed. I've also included some comments on the changes from guild chat (some that i agree with of course) so it's not only my comments. My point is, Dev's listened to us for Bards and worked with people to make adjustments that worked and no nerfs. We've seen very little adjustments to the bad, just some fixes to the obviously wrong. Not sure why pally's are not getting the same love.

The melee power changes are good, i believe that i stated that early on somewhere. Hoping it makes its way around to the tempest tree as that was a disappointment compared to the others.

The armor/prr/etc changes are not specifically for pally's anyway. it's all melee and yes overall look good. so you pull up all melee defensively, but don't increase pally dps substancially and now they lose the one niche they have in tanking as anyone can tank. I'll be able to take my cleric/heavy armor/shield and intim tank and do more damage than my pally with ruin. Pally's didn't need tons of help to armor/prr they needed to be able to kill stuff in somewhat of an ok manner. not up to monk level, just an acceptible level.

The evasion changes hit my toon which was totally redesigned when epics hit. I took it in stride then, i'm really tired of the nerfs. If it was for an over powering reason like the batman build heavy armor evasion back in the day or wounding/puncturing insta killing mobs then ok it needs some adjustment. Regular evasion is not overpowered, especially with the mrr changes as listed. no need ot dial them back. no need to water down future loot with another choice.

I would love to do an anti rage post after lam/live and go great job dev's. That's why i'm trying to give feedback now before it's too late for changes. the lack of change from the first notice of these changes till the recent repost makes it look like nothing will change. that's discouraging. Bards gave me hope for good changes in the future without the past history of breaking builds or coming up with plans that only get half finished. will we get light shields from 1-28? 2 epic options are not enough. it's a repeat of the bucklers which was probably the one failure of the bard changes.

lots of rambling... not enough coffee...

[Thar]

Just wanted to say thanks on this front. It would have been beyond horrible to see those items (and others) effectively destroyed over this, which would have simply left a different itemization gap in its wake. At least this way, (almost) no one will be impacted. And, if the items get upgraded well, even those people using the old one may come out ahead. Good call for you and/or the council, just wanted to say ty for the work on that front. Not the direction I would have gone with it (who cares if light shields are used or not) but, with that direction in mind, it was a good place to make adjustments. Cheers.


Its not about best in slot. Best in slot doesnt even enter into it. Its about having ANYTHING useable in the slot.

There are two, count them TWO static light shields in game currently. Chitin shield from harbor, and weathered targe from desert. Thats it.

The proposed change to Shield of Morning is basically intended to fill the gap of light shields while leveling, or at least adding a "legit" option at all, for levels 17-28. Basically, it gives people in the "iconic/epic" range an item to use while they get to cap (where, one assumes, the new Orchard shields will come into play).

That means an evasion s/b guy doesnt have non-best-in-slot choices, where they need a specific pack for "the good items". They need the pack for ANY item. Different story, and not one Im too fond of. But, as mentioned above, given the set of circumstances at hand its about the best solution one could work out. Just means that people into that build, in that level range, basically get one choice and it costs money. Not the end of the world, just pointing it out as less than ideal.



Bleh, please dont touch the Dethek shield, that would be a huge nerf to everyone else not in that boat, now that heavy shields will get MRR multipliers.

Rather, take pains to make sure that Weathered Targe (and certainly at least 1 orchard shield) become viable. Druids need a light non-metal shield option, weathered targe fits the bill for a current one. And they need an end game one, logically one of the orchard ones will fit that bill. Leave the rune shield as is so all the other wis-caster types, non evasion pallys, etc have their good item that they almost certainly spent 20+ raids getting.

I realize thats a blow to druids who need the +W and such from it, I have a druid with the shield who will occasionally swap around destinies for evasion. So I do get what youre saying, even though I admit more often than not Im not in an evasion setup. But its just not worth hurting a larger percentage of the player base over it, its a bad situation and someones gonna lose. Makes sense to make the loss as small as possible, which in this case means druids for the short term. With the other changes, simply keeping the runeshield and adding heavy armor isnt a bad idea either, so there are several options.

Ideally, beyond the weathered targe (which they really do need to ensure happens), they will revamp Natural Fighting (as alluded to in the other threads), and add Perfect Natural Fighting as an epic feat option, and push druids into a case where they arent lynch pinned around that single shield. And maybe make sure a similar shield effect is on the orchard light shield. Only with this combination of actions is it going to work out. And as you mention, with Primal allowing evasion specifically while in animal form, its a situation they really need to ensure remains viable. Just not by hosing that item for everyone.

how about making it optional... put the runeshield in the forge with an ingot and crunch it to a light shield with same stats. that's not out of the realm of easily doable. then it's two options for either situation from one raid loot.

[Thar]

You have guessed just the same as I have, that orchard will have a "Ring of Evasion" in the loot tables. Since all light armour etc. is being balanced defensively to having evasion as a pre-req, this will mean they have to have it available for those classes that do not get evasion naturally. This will also put monk on par with fighter as a 2 class splash, since I bet the ring is lvl 20, and there will be an lvl 28 rare augment for it otherwise (green I bet, orange is meridian, and purple just does not fit).

Other random guessing, a rare lvl 28 purple augment that gives +1 profane to all abilities (to take the place of the litany).

items with evasion are a bad move and negates class choices in leveling. that need to be a hard choice not a slot choice. the same with improved evasion.

[bbqzor]

how about making it optional... put the runeshield in the forge with an ingot and crunch it to a light shield with same stats. that's not out of the realm of easily doable. then it's two options for either situation from one raid loot.

Adding this one recipe (not exactly per se with the one ingot, but just a size change one) to the magma forge would be preferable, definitely yes. Were they to do recipies I question why they wouldnt simply do one for all the epic shields (as theres what, maybe 6 of them?) so who knows. But if it can be done, that would be ideal. If it cant, then best not to muck it up for the majority. Even though it does affect one situation poorly, its a situation they CAN correct with other actions, IF they can be bothered to take them. Which they should, once they realize how important it is, being that there are multiple things pushing it that direction.

Except then druids who suddenly might want 2 of the raid shield will have to suffer through another forsaken set of 20 because the abysmal drop rates in those raids are so stupefyingly low that 12 people can do 20 runs and for all 240 pulls completely legitimately expect to see nothing except a barren wasteland of disappointment in the chest as they inexorably crawl their way to a 20th reward simply to see some glimmer of loot actually show from grind of an unfathomable scale compared to what the game was, and should, be about. Seriously =/

[Thar]

Except then druids who suddenly might want 2 of the raid shield will have to suffer through another forsaken set of 20 because the abysmal drop rates in those raids are so stupefyingly low that 12 people can do 20 runs and for all 240 pulls completely legitimately expect to see nothing except a barren wasteland of disappointment in the chest as they inexorably crawl their way to a 20th reward simply to see some glimmer of loot actually show from grind of an unfathomable scale compared to what the game was, and should, be about. Seriously =/

That raid is a whole other discussion. Raids should have some carrot teasing you to come back and hoping to get something that day. The phlogs are not consistent enough or varied like shroud to be the carrott. Needing 30 is a painful run of approx 60 raids for one item. What if you are a dual wielder? Painful. Shroud wasn't that painful as it gave a large consistently 1 to 1.5 a run. 20 Runs and you could should have enough to make or trade to make what you want. BTC is a fail as it should have been BTA. Of course there is the whole "that which shall not be named" that caused people to be done with the raid earlier than it should be expected so a lack of lfm's/groups which further causes a problem for those left. No corresponding increase in EH or EE to ramp up drops that people want to deal with is another concern. Good crafting itemization for tier 1 and 2 though and I think the raids are fun.

And yes I agree that people's equipment should not be nerf'd so that they lose. Options should be available for people to say wow nice move turbine. not arg not again... This is for the equipment, abilities, etc. I've said for months this game can't withstand another wheloon/stormhorns update that makes half your gear (or whatever) irrelevant. No more nerf's. Come up with good alternatives to the item/ability/etc that you want to change so that it's not a negative. Like you say above, giving some option to change all epic shields would make even more people happy (bards, tower shield users) to get access to an item that is set to one class or build. too many good people have left as why spend the time building a character or grinding gear to have it invalidated. Makes you want to go to another game where that probably won't occur. I can't recall another game I've played where rules are consistently changed for items or abillites.

[edrein]

Bleh, please dont touch the Dethek shield, that would be a huge nerf to everyone else not in that boat, now that heavy shields will get MRR multipliers.

Rather, take pains to make sure that Weathered Targe (and certainly at least 1 orchard shield) become viable. Druids need a light non-metal shield option, weathered targe fits the bill for a current one. And they need an end game one, logically one of the orchard ones will fit that bill. Leave the rune shield as is so all the other wis-caster types, non evasion pallys, etc have their good item that they almost certainly spent 20+ raids getting.

I realize thats a blow to druids who need the +W and such from it, I have a druid with the shield who will occasionally swap around destinies for evasion. So I do get what youre saying, even though I admit more often than not Im not in an evasion setup. But its just not worth hurting a larger percentage of the player base over it, its a bad situation and someones gonna lose. Makes sense to make the loss as small as possible, which in this case means druids for the short term. With the other changes, simply keeping the runeshield and adding heavy armor isnt a bad idea either, so there are several options.

Ideally, beyond the weathered targe (which they really do need to ensure happens), they will revamp Natural Fighting (as alluded to in the other threads), and add Perfect Natural Fighting as an epic feat option, and push druids into a case where they arent lynch pinned around that single shield. And maybe make sure a similar shield effect is on the orchard light shield. Only with this combination of actions is it going to work out. And as you mention, with Primal allowing evasion specifically while in animal form, its a situation they really need to ensure remains viable. Just not by hosing that item for everyone.

While I agree that the majority of people using the shield aren't pure druids or even druid splashes at this point. You can't seriously sit there and defend the majority in good consciousness when the item is clearly designed in mind for one class. As other people have suggested an option to make the shield a small shield would be fine, but if it comes down to a choice I'd rather see them make a choice that favors the minority simply on the intended design of the item. I understand fully that with the PRR/MRR changes it will make the shield as is a lot more favorable for those who have farmed it out and want a heavy shield, but again it is ultimately a DRUID item and as such should fit a druid's needs over a fighter/paladin/etc.

[Powskier]

i cant speak for mages and rangers;but Im excited for my three or four melee characters.Heavy Armor was pretty much junk ,maybee not anymore(to bad I been selling all my heavy armors for 2 yrs )

[bbqzor]

While I agree that the majority of people using the shield aren't pure druids or even druid splashes at this point. You can't seriously sit there and defend the majority in good consciousness when the item is clearly designed in mind for one class.

If the majority using it arent that class, then whatever the intended design, the playerbase has embraced it in a wider fashion. Given the vast, vast number of healers who use it for the proc and devotion mods, I think its fair to say that its not a "druid" item over one effect on the shield. It has *three* healing spell effects on it. And *one* druid effect on it. And the druid effect doesnt even help elemental casting druids, of which you see some for earthquake and other spells, only animal form ones, so its not even everyone of that class. So yea, I can say that in good conscious, and I did. And as Ive mentioned, I have a druid I play a lot in the same boat, and I still said it. Ill agree to disagree if needed, but I would much rather prefer it stay heavy for the majority of people, and for times druids dont need evasion, than see alllll those people lose stats for a single case. Another stone paws shield in orchard is an easy fix, as is having a recipe for this one, but a broad band nerf isnt going to help anything in the big picture.

[LordTigerDawn]

items with evasion are a bad move and negates class choices in leveling. that need to be a hard choice not a slot choice. the same with improved evasion.

It might be a bad move, but it is the only conclusion from the armour changes that assume evasion for light armour or less choices. Since med and heavy armour get the prr/mrr buff for free (as in always), a "ring of evasion" is the only way to keep that balanced.

Of course, maybe they will just introduce evasion as a feat choice instead. So rogues and monks would be essentially just getting a feat for free.

[Thar]

Why is it that people feel the need to have things handed to them on a silver platter?? Seriously...do you just want everyone to have all the best items in the game with no work done to actually loot or create them? Please do not make the uber/best Orchard loot easy to get...leave something for us to grind for...

As for Paladins having to spend a feat to get Tower Shields...booo whooooo. We just got three free feats by the removal of Great Cleave from OC, and two new cleave attacks added into KotC. Yes it is three, no reason to take power attack as it is minimal boost on it's own as SnB. Stop trying to make Paladins the same as Fighters...

i've grinded... and grinded and now being told sorry you can't use them anymore. is that fair too?