Armor Up - Developer Diary #1

[Thar]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Sev~

Are you serious? The shield of morning is garbage for pre epic, much less end game epic. +9 AC? loot gen is better by like an additional +7, solar guard? not enough damage to make it worthwhile, one blue slot - doesn't compare to GH shield with 2, the only random effect not commonly duplicated by other tank gear is bashing (tanks don't shield bash... and the automatic abillity is a waste of effect vs other better options.) and rispote which gives some AC bonus. Evasion tanks need dex to work so aren't max str so tactics probably are not used often. Axeblock, hammerblock, spearblock are better duplicated with dr protection for all 3 types, vitality is useful, but easier to obtain more in lvl 24 3bc gear. Almost every armor/weapon from wheloon/stormhorns is subpar as per numerous posts since beta for that update. The targe is desert which if anyone has read feedback for the last 4+ years is that desert items are insanely hard to get since seals and shards are split between 1/50 ish items. Second point is that these items are 5+ years old and unless getting a serious update are barely adequate for lvl 20 compared to lootgen. You promised options. These are not options.

GH shield for comparison which is easy to obtain in comparison
+16 AC
Sheltering 15
insightful con 3
blue slot
purple slot
lvl 25 (lower than above)

Shield of Mourning
+9AC
light guard effect (seriously, point of tank is to get your ac to a point of NOT getting hit often).
Random effect
Blue slot
lvl 27

you need a load of AC added, another good tank effect (or 2) and a purple slot to make this even comparable to something 2 levels lower.

Raid shield.
+19 ac (9 enhancement)
+ spell power
+ devotion
+10 natural armor
DR (druid form)
runic revitalization
purple slot

add more AC for lvl equivent shield, 4 effects vs 2 and purple slot vs blue.
IF your changing evasion to require small shields, we need something equivent to the new raid shield, the GH shield, heroic IQ shield, wall of wood, etc etc. Items that give good AC, slots, and relevant effects for tanks/protection.

The above is unacceptable without major changes to those items. Ask the population, we'd be happy to help you guys make appropriate items.

[Qhualor]

Although Paladins "got" 3 free feats, how many free feats do Fighters get again? Yet they get a free Tower Shield feat?

Fighters in PnP get free Tower Shield feat.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Fighter

Paladins in PnP are not proficient with Tower Shields and would have to spend a feat to get it.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Paladin

I realize DDO is not PnP, but I like how Sev tries to carryover the rules.

[Thar]

The various incarnations of Shield of Morning have been increased in stats as part of the changes. (I am traveling at the moment and don't have access to the precise changes.)

Sev~

if they are not doubled in AC and additional effects/slots, please move to the vendor (trash bin) where the current incantations are sitting. There is a reason those items are sold to vendor and not even auctioned like most of the stuff from that update. There was a good item pass prior to that update and then all the lootgen rules changed causing lootgen items to be better than 80%-90% of every named item in the game to that point. Additionally most of the items in that update were only comparable to lootgen items (and usually bad lootgen items) It really killed a lot of guilds as people quit.

You'd have to upgrade this a lot and then it's random effects which people hate to farm.

very disappointing.

[Thar]

Sev- it would help if you could explain the reasoning behind the evasion nerf.

we don't want to make light shields relevant. make them go away just like light hammers. there isn't part of the melee changes making light hammers relevent for barbarians...

again more reasoning needed why this is even a discussion point or needed. Now that we saw what the plan is for "new" light shields, this needs to be scrapped even more so.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Fighters in PnP get free Tower Shield feat.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Fighter

Paladins in PnP are not proficient with Tower Shields and would have to spend a feat to get it.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Paladin

I realize DDO is not PnP, but I like how Sev tries to carryover the rules.

In my distant DnD memories, I recall paladins as being resilient characters with more DPS than fighters. Fighters excelled through the versatility of their feats.

I would not be supportive of tower shields for paladins If for the last 2 years at least, the game system has tried to make paladins (not pal2 splashes) tank. They are suboptimal in virtually every other role. I don't see that fundamentally changing anytime soon (based on the current discussions). Now if they got really serious and made KotC a true undead and outsider demolisher, or otherwise changed the focus of paladins, I'd back off on this. Until then--let them Tower.

[CaptainSpacePony]

we don't want to make light shields relevant. make them go away just like light hammers. there isn't part of the melee changes making light hammers relevent for barbarians...

again more reasoning needed why this is even a discussion point or needed. Now that we saw what the plan is for "new" light shields, this needs to be scrapped even more so.

I don't find your argument convincing. There are 4 types of shields. There are many types of weapons. There are several classes.

Besides, light hammers are relevant for 2WF hammer-wielding barbarians who want a light hammer in the off hand to avoid oversized weapon penalties.

[Qhualor]

In my distant DnD memories, I recall paladins as being resilient characters with more DPS than fighters. Fighters excelled through the versatility of their feats.

I would not be supportive of tower shields for paladins If for the last 2 years at least, the game system has tried to make paladins (not pal2 splashes) tank. They are suboptimal in virtually every other role. I don't see that fundamentally changing anytime soon (based on the current discussions). Now if they got really serious and made KotC a true undead and outsider demolisher, or otherwise changed the focus of paladins, I'd back off on this. Until then--let them Tower.

it seems to me that Sev is trying to accomplish that. KOTC is under discussion right now for improvement as a dps tree and Sacred Defender looks to be an improvement as a tank tree with dps.

[Thar]

I don't find your argument convincing. There are 4 types of shields. There are many types of weapons. There are several classes.

Besides, light hammers are relevant for 2WF hammer-wielding barbarians who want a light hammer in the off hand to avoid oversized weapon penalties.

Why spend the development time to make new shields. if they aren't then we lose.

making us change to light sheilds adds grind to refarm all new shields - we lose.

for what point is this change being made? the only comment so far has been to make light shields relevant. Who cares. We don't care about light hammers. no one is asking for either to be relevant. splitting what little new items we get into yet another option is bad for everyone. Say they spend the time to make a awesome light shield. Then heavy shield users lose out as they don't get that option (yes they could downgrade to it and lose the benefits of heavy shields). Bards lose as they can't use it and swashbuckler. Towershield users don't want to drop that much AC. splitting it between 3 types of used shields today gives us what we use and only 2/3 of the users don't get a new item instead of 1/4.

so my point is like light hammers, light shields are irrelevant to the game today. changing the existing base game rules for playstyle for the sole point of making an item type relevant isn't good for the game. We don't do it for weapons. why do it for this? There is no good reason posted for the change to evasion that any evasion user could agree with yet. We just want to know why...

[ThomasHunter]

Sev, please don't forget druids in animal form. Seems like there is a general lack of (named) WOOD shields. I think U21 has one that is cool enough and Wall of Wood is good too. I'd still like to see a bit more.

[Takllin]

Although Paladins "got" 3 free feats, how many free feats do Fighters get again? Yet they get a free Tower Shield feat?

Also, I've asked a few times and I have never received an answer about the Paladin's new cleaves (one of which is a Tier 5 ability so it locks out the other trees) working with Momentum Swing and Lay Waste and Legendary Dreadnaught still needing Power Attack to work. If nothing changed in that ED, then Paladins still need to pick up those three feats for that ED or else it becomes another unfun ED, like Grandmaster is for Armor wearers.

Which is a staple of the Fighter class...there are pros and cons to every class, trying to take the pros from one and add them to take away the cons from another is not balance. That makes Paladins significantly better than Fighters.

I've asked the same question and yet to receive a response. I am hoping that they add in the new Paladin cleave attacks as another pre requisite for Momentum Swing and Lay Waste.

[Nightmanis]

but wall of wood wouldn't be a wall of wood if it wasn't at least a large shield.

Then it shall be renamed "Annoying Obstruction of Wood"

[oradafu]

Which is a staple of the Fighter class...there are pros and cons to every class, trying to take the pros from one and add them to take away the cons from another is not balance. That makes Paladins significantly better than Fighters.

I've asked the same question and yet to receive a response. I am hoping that they add in the new Paladin cleave attacks as another pre requisite for Momentum Swing and Lay Waste.

However, we also have players arguing that Paladins should only be S&B with Long Swords (which I strongly disagree with, but there is a large portion of the playerbase that perceives this). We also will soon have Fighters and Paladins sharing essentially two of the three trees. And the new tree that hasn't been revealed yet appears to be a Shield based tree. Yes, I think Paladins should get the Tower Shield feat for free, but perhaps in the new tree that hasn't been shown to us players.

[Silverleafeon]

The various incarnations of Shield of Morning have been increased in stats as part of the changes. (I am traveling at the moment and don't have access to the precise changes.)

Sev~

Basically Sev asked us to look for the most worthless shields in the game, so he could upgrade them and convert them to small size.

Two birds with one stone ~ worthless shields become good and everyone gets a set of small shields to use.

You can guess which shield I nominated...

[Thar]

but wall of wood wouldn't be a wall of wood if it wasn't at least a large shield.

wall of wood is a lower level item and is/was high sought after. it is leaps and bounds better than the morning shield.

[Thar]

Basically Sev asked us to look for the most worthless shields in the game, so he could upgrade them and convert them to small size.

Two birds with one stone ~ worthless shields become good and everyone gets a set of small shields to use.

You can guess which shield I nominated...

ah so it's getting better... rage subsiding...

[Silverleafeon]

wall of wood is a lower level item and is/was high sought after. it is leaps and bounds better than the morning shield.

Yes, I blocked any thoughts of changing several other shields into small including Wall of Wood, Skyvault, and Bulwark explaining in detail that they are beloved in their own way. The Devs listened, and these shield remain as they are.

Then I and some others have pressed as much as possible to give the shield of morning quality upgrades to the point that a few of our requests were considered a bit over the top. Hopefully we get a nice upgrade out of the deal.

[Thar]

it seems to me that Sev is trying to accomplish that. KOTC is under discussion right now for improvement as a dps tree and Sacred Defender looks to be an improvement as a tank tree with dps.

KOTC is an improvement if you never had cleave/great cleave. if you did, then it's the same and your feats are useless. what other dps attack feats can you take to do 1w or 2w attacks? none? so it's almost a wash of no actual dps improvement. (some light damaged added)

SD - is a few ap improvement but NO dps. the dps option is for getting hit for a tree that is built to avoid getting hit. counter productive and even max 10 damage for next attack pales in comparison to every other tier 5 damage ability in the game. it should have a tier 1/2 attack like shinto for adding 3/6/9 ac (or dodge if nothing else copy the shinto one)

[Thar]

Yes, I blocked any thoughts of changing several other shields into small including Wall of Wood, Skyvault, and Bulwark explaining in detail that they are beloved in their own way. The Devs listened, and these shield remain as they are.

Then I and some others have pressed as much as possible to give the shield of morning quality upgrades to the point that a few of our requests were considered a bit over the top. Hopefully we get a nice upgrade out of the deal.

it is VERY painful to lose my wall of wood, bulwark and dethek runestone. Major sadness and fustration with the devs. After the MOTD changes to AC made me grind out shields for 3 years, to take that away is a slap in the face.

And i still fail to understand the reason for the change. to make light shields useful should not be the point of a game mechanics change. you make good light shields and people will naturarly gravitate to them as useful equipment. (ie +6 to reflex, or fail save and get 25% less damae like the tempest ability. ) no other reason is apparent from this change so it smells like nerf for the sake of nerf and evasion isn't that strong. You have to sacrafice capstone and spells (pally), stats to get sufficient dex and saves to get upwards of 60+ to make evasion work in endgame. improved evasion yes is strong, but how many builds use shields with improved evasion? 12monk/rogue splash with fighter/pally? i can't ever recall seeing anything like that running around.

[PermaBanned]

I just dont like to see anyone who wants to make a fairly broad reaching build (evasion tank, its been around since 2006 in one flavor or another) be told "well, do to that, you have to buy this, no other real choices".

Light & Darkness, ESoS, ToD Rings, Green Steel, Thunder Forged & the list goes on. Regardless of the build, if you want the best in slot (BTC) gear you gotta buy the pack it comes from; that's nothing new and I don't see why a shield using Evasion Tank should be an exception...

[Qhualor]

KOTC is an improvement if you never had cleave/great cleave. if you did, then it's the same and your feats are useless. what other dps attack feats can you take to do 1w or 2w attacks? none? so it's almost a wash of no actual dps improvement. (some light damaged added)

SD - is a few ap improvement but NO dps. the dps option is for getting hit for a tree that is built to avoid getting hit. counter productive and even max 10 damage for next attack pales in comparison to every other tier 5 damage ability in the game. it should have a tier 1/2 attack like shinto for adding 3/6/9 ac (or dodge if nothing else copy the shinto one)

Right now, its just numbers on paper. It will be easier to see how the changes work once we can start testing them on Lama. You are also forgetting about melee power, MRR, PRR, feats that would be freed up and shield and armor improvements. Mobs are supposed to get a pass as well. I see nothing but an increase in power and not less or "a wash".

I've read a lot of your posts in these threads. Its quite clear that you are the most unhappy with these changes and haven't seen anything positive, especially when its going to affect your evasion tank.