Armor Up - Developer Diary #1

[BigErkyKid]

Some responses:



~ The reason we don't revamp the armor class system (again) instead of using this PRR and MRR system is that Armor Class is, by its very nature, a binary defense and binary defenses create spikey damage. Evasion, displacement and dodge already offer that playstyle. We wanted a more predictable (for the player) damage mitigation for armor.

Sev~

Thanks for the answer.

Please do note that for armor wearers AC is what substitutes dodge and incorporeality.

The difference is that dodge caps fairly low with heavy armor (4-6% vs 20-25%) and incorporeality can only be on the low end (10% vs 25%), so the majority of the to miss chance has to come from AC for armor clad lads.

Just for the sake of the example, lets see what the AC to miss would have to be for an armored player if it was to cover the difference in dodge and incorporeality.

Assume 20% dodge, 25% incorporeality for the monk splash and 5% dodge, 10% incorporeality for the armored. Both have displacement.

The to miss chance of the monk splash is: 1-0.3= 0.7

> .8*.5*.75
[1] 0.3

And for the guy in heavy armor: 1-0.42= 0.58

> .95*.5*.90
[1] 0.4275

So armor would have to make up for that difference. I guess it is complicated to balance since there is PRR and now MRR involved. But please do keep in mind that in order to get a working AC that at least covers up that difference, the guy with armor has to invest a lot more in terms of AP that the monk splash (or saw swash).

1% dodge works with bosses and regardless of the level of the mob, but 1 AC ( or 10 AC, whatever) does not. In order to get AC to work, you need to invest in the defender trees. A simple armor is not going to cut it even for epic hard. You need to boost it with fairly heavy AP investments (up enough in the tree for it to be 50% or whatever to the original base).

Defender trees offer mostly defensive abilities, so locking 20-30 APs into them is a very big drawback. This only to get an AC that offers a bit of defense as opposed to being completely ignored. Compare that to the low hanging fruit of shadow veil or wearing a dodge item. Furthermore, AC is particularly bad against bosses, whereas dodge and incorp. work wonders on them.

Given that bosses in end game hit like trucks, if your to miss is bad odds are that PRR cannot save you for very long. Specially for those builds that wear heavy armor but are not necessarily fully invested in shield and what not.

So to sum it up, the way I see it AC is what armored guys get instead of dodge and incorporeality. However, AC costs a lot more in AP and is not as useful in all situations (bosses). I therefore ask that at least you guys consider giving it a slight boost or at least bring it closer to the heroic baseline (which is, I suspect, the one that has been trully calibrated).

PS - Important!! For bosses with true seeing, this difference magnifies! Up to .25 in the to miss is huge.

> .95*.90
[1] 0.855
> .8*.75
[1] 0.6

[droid327]

No. AC, Absorb, Dodge, Incorp, Evasion for chance at nil damage;
PRR, MRR, DR, and Resist for damage reduction.

The best way to view it is to treat PRR and MRR as updated versions of DR, and dodge as a variant overlap of Incorp and AC.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. % chance to avoid an attack and % damage reduction work out the same, in the long run. You can stack them with each other...people will do the math, figure out the opportunity costs, and maximize their net damage reduction with some optimal combination of RRs and Avoidances. A mix is likely to be far superior to maximizing one at the expense of the other.

The only wildcard is flat DR/elemental resists, since their usefulness depends on the size of incoming hits, not just the total amount of incoming damage.

[Firewall]

(...)~ The reason we don't revamp the armor class system (again) instead of using this PRR and MRR system is that Armor Class is, by its very nature, a binary defense and binary defenses create spikey damage. Evasion, displacement and dodge already offer that playstyle. We wanted a more predictable (for the player) damage mitigation for armor.

Sev~

So that means that AC is intended to be next to useless for most builds in Epic Elite content and will continue to give next to no mitigation for the heavy investment that needs to be made to be competitive with increasingly higher CR monsters with insane attack values? You don't even want to try to make it at least a tiny bit competitive with Dodge, Ghostly, Blur and Displacement in EE?

[Thar]

Right now all additional mitigation is weighted on the shield with no additional mitigation coming from heavier armor in spite of the stated objective "heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation". I suggest splitting it so that armor also gets part of the bonus :

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 1.5
Tower Shield: 1.5

Robes or Outfits: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Armor: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Medium Armor: 1.5
Heavy Armor: 1.5

(Unless of course the "heavier armor and/or" part of the objective was a typo.)

and give evasion back to heavy shield users. There is NO GOOD REASON to make that change after 8 years of the game. As a paying member, I want a producer to give us the reason why what I bought is being changed.

[Thar]

Why are light armor evasion users getting nerf'd more? We already give up a ton to get evasion and now losing heavy shields for light. *yes no good named light shields in the game at any level...

What does a 28 fighter give up for evasion, small increase in dex bonus and increase in dodge cap that is hard to max on tank with no inate dodge in the class?

Alacrity: * +2 Strength

+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+2 Action Boost uses
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

or

You gain +2 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. Shield Action Boost: Your gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)

+ 15 heavy armor ac bonus * ac buffs from class
+ 1/2 base attack bonus + 4 prr = 15 reduction prr
+ tower shield ac 3
+ tower shield prr 10 (shield master feats)


What does a 28 pally give up for evasion?

You gain +2 Charisma, and increase the bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven by an additional +2. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

or

You gain +2 Charisma, and your range of unconsciousness extends by 40 hitpoints. Toggle: While Eternal Defender is active, if you drop below 0 hit points but are not killed, two uses of Turn Undead are immediately expended and you receive a reactive heal for 250 points of Positive Energy healing.

+ 15 heavy armor ac bonus
+ 1/2 base attack bonus ( + 4 prr difference) = 15 prr loss



Dev suggestion to limit shields to light or less for evasion causes the further hit for more AC and more PRR. Yes it's not a lot but really... stop changing things for the worse. It's hard enough to keep up with the heavy armor tanks now and giving them 73% mrr magic damage mitigation will make us all but useless to start.

further decrease in prr (shield mastery feats of 7prr) + less 3 AC and 1 DR blocking for heavy and more AC and 5 prr for fighters with tower shield use.

At this point in the game we should not be further changing the base game rules that have existed for years. only add benefits to those classes/abilities that need a boost.

[CaptainSpacePony]

For those evasion builds that you are hurting, will we be receiving LR20 stones to redo our characters???

Which--the large shield evasion builds? Not a lot of those running around, since they tend to be... less strong.

Buffing non-evasion builds is NOT an evasion nerf, of did I misunderstand your point?

[Vaidan]

I have a few things that could be considered for further implementation

Players have long lamented about how mithral and adamantine have been nerfed into uselessness by previous updates.


For mithral and adamantine, why not divide it into a few ranks, each having better ac and bonuses, similar to skirmish, battle and magecraft type progression.

This way, they are still craftable and competitive armors.

Each would then have bonuses based on traditional flavor attributes.


For instance, mithral flavor-wise has been associated with spellcasters. Why not make mithral have additional magic dr compared to other equivalent armors.

And for adamantine, physical resistance due to its association with durability and strength.





Over all, I love this new system. It adds a depth of flavor to the game, while still adding a very playable and workable feature.

The only thing I would suggest out of concern is to add some magic resist to orbs, as to show caster ability to use them as a sort of "counterspell" device. Else it is much more viable just to go eldritch knight and pick up a shield, thus taking away some of the diversity of the game.


Once again, keep up the great work

[lyrecono]

Physical and Magical Resist Ratings offered by armor
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 2 + (BAB / 2.0) )
Medium Armor: 20 PRR, 20 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 4 + (BAB / 1.5) )
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. (This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6 + BAB )



Sev~

Yes.

Mithral Body will be treated as Light armor and provide 10 PRR.
Adamantine Body will be treated as Heavy Armor and provide 30 PRR.

Sev~

Good news for adam body users (the both of them), but the other part of it is still broken (the 6+BAB part), it currently only gives your BAB (no +6) to your prr, is this going to fixed too?
More info here: prr on ddo wiki

[bbqzor]

Why are light armor evasion users getting nerf'd more? We already give up a ton to get evasion and now losing heavy shields for light..

Look, you need to total up the maths of what the changes do. Evasion is not getting nerfed, it is getting buffed. Changing from Heavy to Light shields isnt getting nerfed, its getting buffed (with the caveat that you have to trust they will add worthwhile light shields... Ill come back to that).

Right now, if you want to do a light armor, s/b, evasion guy (assuming BAB of 28 via divine power or divine crusader or whatever) you get 16 PRR for your armor. And (if you take both shield mastery feats) you get 10 PRR for your shield.

Post changes, doing the same exact guy, you will get 26 PRR for your light armor. And, with the same feats, you will get 10 PRR for your shield. The passive prr shield bonus covers the loss on the feats, and youre still up the PRR from the armor changes.

If you did not take any of the shield feats, then you GAIN the 5 passive shield PRR for light shield. Meaning you are up 15 PRR total.

Then, you still get your exact same evasion chance now, but you have 36 MRR (from the 36 prr above) which also applies (or 31 if no shield mastery). Plus, of course, whatever other PRR/MRR you have which adds here as well. So it makes survivability better there too.

There is no single thing that goes down from this change. Nothing. Its 100% all gain all the time....

... except the shield itemization issue. The fact that you are basically forced to gamble the light shields they add will directly and fairly compared to what heavy shields offer stat wise is a risk. It is. But its not one thats much different over time than anything else. Whatever shields are good now wont be good forever. Same for any item. Over time, everyone makes that gamble. Its not something anyone should be happy about, but its also not anything un-ordinary. Here its just heavily forced, with no other option, and no precedent of even a fallback item... its literally whatever they add, hope its good enough, because theres no alternative light shield out there you can hang onto in the interim.

So I wont say theres no risk. But thats independent of the mechanics changes. Mechanically, there is no s/b evasion nerf. There isnt. Everything else got better, okay fine. But so did this. As for the itemization devs, well... just have to hope they make good. EVERYONE is in that same boat. We dont even have enough bucklers yet, and almost no one would say the two they added are even all that appealing let alone remotely adequate. Hopefully there are quite a few new shields, for everyone and all shield kinds, that go in as a result of this. Otherwise theres gonna be a lot of people using the same 1 decent shield of each type....

[sirgog]

Some responses:

~ Energy Absorption is multiplicative and expressed as a percentage. That makes it a poor choice for adding bits of protection to many different enhancements. MRR is an additive rating.

~ Additionally, players are used to having resistance rating on armor and we wanted to follow the existing system.

~ The reason we don't revamp the armor class system (again) instead of using this PRR and MRR system is that Armor Class is, by its very nature, a binary defense and binary defenses create spikey damage. Evasion, displacement and dodge already offer that playstyle. We wanted a more predictable (for the player) damage mitigation for armor.

Sev~

I think you should overhaul the resists/absorb system for elements.

Resists work OK in pen and paper D&D until about level 14 when they start to break down. 20 points off an 8d6 fireball is relevant. 30 points off a 16d6 DBF is less relevant.

In DDO, with spell power on both players and mobs, it doesn't work well at all. 30 resist is almost godmode on epic normal, but almost meaningless on epic elite (except against hostile archers or DOTs). It becomes a case of 'Resists are nice to have but not worth effort; otherwise % mitigation is essential'. A resist spell should feel relevant against a Delayed Blast Fireball.

Proposed fix:

Note that this would break some heroic elite traps. All heroic elite traps of note (Waterworks acid tunnel and STK fire room especially) would need rebalancing by hand, as those traps are currently balanced under the assumption that the players have guild resists on elite.

Add eight resistance ratings. Fire, acid, elec, cold, sonic, positive, negative, other. Each works like the proposed MRR (except positive and negative which might need a different look).

Then, change all existing 'resist' effects to give enhancement bonuses to the relevant resistance. All absorb effects give exceptional bonuses to resistance. Ablative effects (Protection from Elements) remains as-is, but is applied *last*. Resist Elements could simply become '+50 resist fire rating' independent of caster level, and low level gear might provide 30 resist fire rating while high level might grant 50.

The benefit here is that you reduce complexity. Once you understand physical mitigation, you get to understand elemental mitigation for free, rather than them having totally different systems. Currently elemental mitigation is a confusing mess - only a small minority of players could tell you what happens correctly if you are hit by a 600 damage DBF, make your save, have Fireshield Cold, 33% fire absorb, 15% fire absorb, a 40 resist fire item and Protection from Elements: Fire active.

[Terebinthia]

The two main comments are have are as follows

1. Where is the love for casters using robes? Does seem silly that they need to armour up.

2. Please for the love of Pete don't make any lootgen items with these - I play caster / melee hybrids and slotting what I have to slot already is getting ridiculous. Plus it dilutes the loot tables even further and we have enough issues with that as it is.

[Thar]

Which--the large shield evasion builds? Not a lot of those running around, since they tend to be... less strong.

Buffing non-evasion builds is NOT an evasion nerf, of did I misunderstand your point?

he's making large sheild not work with evasion so any evasion monks, pally, fighter splashes will lose their abillity to use the shields that so far in the game have been designed for them and throw away characters that have had this ability for 8 years. nothing in the game should be changed in a negative way after 8 years.

yes those builds are less strong dps wise, but they give it up to do what they do tanking. so why make them worse? why make them throw away equipment and raid items to keep them at a level less good ac and prr wise as today. For what purpose does this accomplish to limit heavy shields as if you wear heavy armor you already aren't able to use evasion so it's blocked for the primary focus of this change. the only gain for this build would be x2 on mrr for failed reflex saves which you either are failing on a 1 if you have good saves without the feats that prevent fails on a 1 or your so/so on evasion and hoping for a good roll anyway. So the x2 would help those build and it's this what it's all about to help the dps/tanks?

[Thar]

The two main comments are have are as follows

1. Where is the love for casters using robes? Does seem silly that they need to armour up.

Casters will continue to be one shotted by the massive damage... That really needs to be scaled down, not giving 2x mrr to compensate.

[Thar]

Look, you need to total up the maths of what the changes do. Evasion is not getting nerfed, it is getting buffed. Changing from Heavy to Light shields isnt getting nerfed, its getting buffed (with the caveat that you have to trust they will add worthwhile light shields... Ill come back to that).

Right now, if you want to do a light armor, s/b, evasion guy (assuming BAB of 28 via divine power or divine crusader or whatever) you get 16 PRR for your armor. And (if you take both shield mastery feats) you get 10 PRR for your shield.

Post changes, doing the same exact guy, you will get 26 PRR for your light armor. And, with the same feats, you will get 10 PRR for your shield. The passive prr shield bonus covers the loss on the feats, and youre still up the PRR from the armor changes.

If you did not take any of the shield feats, then you GAIN the 5 passive shield PRR for light shield. Meaning you are up 15 PRR total.

Then, you still get your exact same evasion chance now, but you have 36 MRR (from the 36 prr above) which also applies (or 31 if no shield mastery). Plus, of course, whatever other PRR/MRR you have which adds here as well. So it makes survivability better there too.

There is no single thing that goes down from this change. Nothing. Its 100% all gain all the time....

... except the shield itemization issue. The fact that you are basically forced to gamble the light shields they add will directly and fairly compared to what heavy shields offer stat wise is a risk. It is. But its not one thats much different over time than anything else. Whatever shields are good now wont be good forever. Same for any item. Over time, everyone makes that gamble. Its not something anyone should be happy about, but its also not anything un-ordinary. Here its just heavily forced, with no other option, and no precedent of even a fallback item... its literally whatever they add, hope its good enough, because theres no alternative light shield out there you can hang onto in the interim.

So I wont say theres no risk. But thats independent of the mechanics changes. Mechanically, there is no s/b evasion nerf. There isnt. Everything else got better, okay fine. But so did this. As for the itemization devs, well... just have to hope they make good. EVERYONE is in that same boat. We dont even have enough bucklers yet, and almost no one would say the two they added are even all that appealing let alone remotely adequate. Hopefully there are quite a few new shields, for everyone and all shield kinds, that go in as a result of this. Otherwise theres gonna be a lot of people using the same 1 decent shield of each type....

you are assuming that the new items will be easily available and continue to be provided in future updates. how often do we get new shields in the game? one out of 4 updates? how you divide that by 2 as you now have to add new named bucklers and light sheilds to the mix. If at the same rate, we will see a new buckler or light shield once every 4 years for end game content. Did bucklers get updated for 1-28 in the last pass? do you really believe it will be a mass influx of new equipment for 28 (30) levels? There shouldn't be a mass change in development at this stage of the game that causes any nerfs to characters. And the nerf is the loss of further prr and AC to a build that already gave up a lot to get the protection that will be minimized in the update with the MRR changes so that evasion is almost not as useful as equipable items. Feats and character build choices shouldn't be minimized by equipment. It's not like this build is crazy op... it's weak dps as it is and needs help.

[Free2Pay]

Can a heavily armored fighter without destiny survive Subterrance explorer with this change?

Can a heavily armored fighter without destiny survive Elite Enter the Kobold without healing with this change?

Can a heavily armored fighter without destiny survive Elite A New Invasion without healing with this change?

Mind you, most caster/range type can. I'll only comment once this 3 minimum benchmarks are passed.

[Scrabbler]

he's making large sheild not work with evasion so any evasion monks, pally, fighter splashes will lose their abillity to use the shields that so far in the game have been designed for them and throw away characters that have had this ability for 8 years. nothing in the game should be changed in a negative way after 8 years.

They should create some crafting ingredient that'll turn any interesting named Heavy Shield into a Light Shield, and vice-versa. Put it in some chests, and also gift them to players when the update launches.

[Loromir]

After reading up on all of this, it just feels like they are giving steroids to everybody now. All Melees are going to be "Hulks" now, even the elves. I know no one likes nerfs, but it just seems they are going at this all backwards.

Epic Destinies and the Enhancement pass really added a ton of power to the masses, now everyone will be even stronger.


I'm not sure what the solution is, but I fear we are going down a slippery path here, and one we can't possibly return from.

[Seikojin]

I think you should overhaul the resists/absorb system for elements.

Resists work OK in pen and paper D&D until about level 14 when they start to break down. 20 points off an 8d6 fireball is relevant. 30 points off a 16d6 DBF is less relevant.

In DDO, with spell power on both players and mobs, it doesn't work well at all. 30 resist is almost godmode on epic normal, but almost meaningless on epic elite (except against hostile archers or DOTs). It becomes a case of 'Resists are nice to have but not worth effort; otherwise % mitigation is essential'. A resist spell should feel relevant against a Delayed Blast Fireball.

Proposed fix:

Note that this would break some heroic elite traps. All heroic elite traps of note (Waterworks acid tunnel and STK fire room especially) would need rebalancing by hand, as those traps are currently balanced under the assumption that the players have guild resists on elite.

Add eight resistance ratings. Fire, acid, elec, cold, sonic, positive, negative, other. Each works like the proposed MRR (except positive and negative which might need a different look).

Then, change all existing 'resist' effects to give enhancement bonuses to the relevant resistance. All absorb effects give exceptional bonuses to resistance. Ablative effects (Protection from Elements) remains as-is, but is applied *last*. Resist Elements could simply become '+50 resist fire rating' independent of caster level, and low level gear might provide 30 resist fire rating while high level might grant 50.

The benefit here is that you reduce complexity. Once you understand physical mitigation, you get to understand elemental mitigation for free, rather than them having totally different systems. Currently elemental mitigation is a confusing mess - only a small minority of players could tell you what happens correctly if you are hit by a 600 damage DBF, make your save, have Fireshield Cold, 33% fire absorb, 15% fire absorb, a 40 resist fire item and Protection from Elements: Fire active.

Hi hais Sirgog! I haven't seen a post from you in a while. LOL

I think it should be this way too. Why not remove complexity and therefore reduce lag.

Also, I think it is time for a lam build.

[Scrabbler]

Notice that (with the same items and EDs) a pure Wizard28 will be better at melee than a pure Barbarian21? That's funny eh.

[bbqzor]

you are assuming that the new items will be easily available and continue to be provided in future updates

Again, this is true of all items. I do not think they will do a great job at this, they never do. But over time, all items are in this position. They need to do a better job here, and they seem to be aware of that, and thats the best the situation can be. Not sure what else to say... no item support is an issue which plagues many items, and I wish it was better, but it is what it is. Whos to say heavy shields dont get left out with all the focus on adding light shields and bucklers? Its a roll of the dice either way, and a whole issue to itself. It doesnt hinge on any of the mechanics proposed in the OP.

the nerf is the loss of further prr and AC

There was no loss of PRR, you gained PRR. Likewise, there was no AC loss directly... we would need to see the new items for that. In any event, losing a few points (light and heavy shields tend to be very close AC wise, unless the new items are a dramatic departure from this model) will not invalidate an entire build. Again, thats an issue with the items when they come up, and has nothing to do with any mechanics here.

a build that already gave up a lot to get the protection that will be minimized in the update with the MRR changes so that evasion is almost not as useful as equipable items

That could be said of a lot of builds. It is not specific to evasion s/b, clerics with heavy shields (as an example) gain tremendously. But not improving as much as someone else is not the same as being nerfed. If you want to make a case and outline some things that should be improved more, okay, but thats different from trying to say like evasion s/b lost any stats.. it didnt. It gained them. Not as much as someone else maybe but they went up.

Feats and character build choices shouldn't be minimized by equipment

It happens sometimes. As a design rule, its true, but in a game this varied it happens. Invisibility scrolls minimize the assistance of the hide skill, and those anyone can buy on a vendor. It doesnt mean hide is bad, just that you only take it for certain things. This is like that. Evasion s/b might look less good by comparison, but MRR does nothing against traps, and doesnt wholly prevent damage. Evasion s/b still has a use when raiding (chance for total avoidance) and questing (ability to work around traps while in party) both of which can be very useful at times. Against things like Miior, its even more critical, no amount of MRR is going to change that fight. Its not getting any worse mechanically, even if other people are seeming to gain a bit in some areas its helpful.

It's not like this build is crazy op... it's weak dps as it is and needs help.

It does gain DPS. Proposed 20 Melee Power (in the other thread) for using shield mastery feats. A direct DPS gain for this exact build.

Again, not seeing any nerfs. Maybe you think it doesnt gain enough ground relative to something else, but its not getting any nerfs anywhere. The item issue isnt a nerf until we see the items and can compare, and thats a risk everyone shares on every item in game, every update. Not sure what else to say. Obviously youre not happy with it, maybe you can find some specific things to suggest. The shield changeover doesnt make sense to me (its more work to do more shields, why do more work) but theyre set on doing it, said they will add the shields, and made sure that no one loses any ground stat wise, as shown in the posts here. What else can be done except wait for the shields to show up and feedback the stats?