Armor Up - Developer Diary #1

[Thar]

It might be a bad move, but it is the only conclusion from the armour changes that assume evasion for light armour or less choices. Since med and heavy armour get the prr/mrr buff for free (as in always), a "ring of evasion" is the only way to keep that balanced.

Of course, maybe they will just introduce evasion as a feat choice instead. So rogues and monks would be essentially just getting a feat for free.

This would be a bad option imo as it's a tier 6 abillity in epic destiny's or requires two classes that you may not want on your character. making that easy button shouldn't happen.

[XodousRoC]

This would be a bad option imo as it's a tier 6 abillity in epic destiny's or requires two classes that you may not want on your character. making that easy button shouldn't happen.

I kind of agree, and I kind of don't. I'd be ok with evasion as a feat...a capped Martial Sphere feat, to compete with perfect TWF, SWF, THF, etc. BUT any toon taking the evasion feat needs to adhere to the same restrictions all of the monks and rogues (and attendant splashes) had to adhere to: Light armor or less, small shield at largest, not carry a load over light (to keep it in line with monk evasion), etc. Meet those guides and evasion can be yours...at the expense of a perfect weapon feat...

[PermaBanned]

It might be a bad move, but it is the only conclusion from the armour changes that assume evasion for light armour or less choices.

Who uses light armor without Evasion? It actually seems to me like a fair assumption that in nearly if not every case where a character is speccing for light armor use, it has Evasion.

The armor changes/prr/mrr are an interesting idea, but when i run the numbers it seems to be too much in certain extremes and will cause the game to go into easy mode. I posted about it on the intial thread but wasn't addressed. It still seems like the same overpowered change with 2xmrr.

iirc it's just the (Lrg/Twr) shield's MRR contribution that is doubled vs effects causing a Reflex save, not the characters whole MRR total - am wrong there?

[gwonbush]

Who uses light armor without Evasion? It actually seems to me like a fair assumption that in nearly if not every case where a character is speccing for light armor use, it has Evasion.

Druids without dragonscale armor. This is because there are almost no sources of medium armors that don't break druidic oath.

[PermaBanned]

Druids without dragonscale armor. This is because there are almost no sources of medium armors that don't break druidic oath.

I'll grant you a Druid's options are limited, but say Dragon Scale is their only medium choice is a gross misrepresentation. I know on my Druid, I was only stuck with light armor from 1-7. Starting at 8, I've got non-metal named options for medium armor filling level gaps that Dragon Scale doesn't. Even still, a Druid that wants Evasion can get it, the same way most of the other classes can.

[oradafu]

Druids without dragonscale armor. This is because there are almost no sources of medium armors that don't break druidic oath.

True, true.

But this wasn't unforeseen by the Devs if they listened to players. When Update 11 was added, players warned the Devs about the lack of decent Shields in the game because the LoB raid was moving the game (at that time) into a more tank oriented endgame. Nothing was really done about adding more viable shields as players leveled up back then.

When Druid was added, players pointed out the lack of named Leather/Hide armor in the game, especially viable versions. Players also warned about the near-total lack of non-metal shields in the game. In both fronts, the Devs didn't really add new stuff in old content like they should have for Druids, unlike the addition of Runearms for Artis.

And I'm wondering has there been any discussion about Orbs and MRR or anything else with these changes? (Aside: Orbs are another thing that the Devs added that should have been sprinkled into older content so they gain use as players level up.)

[Ebondevil]

Does mithril still equal light armor (I thought so) or do we have another problem with evasion?

It lowers the Armours Heaviness, so Heavy Armour Becomes Medium, and Medium Armour becomes Light

items with evasion are a bad move and negates class choices in leveling. that need to be a hard choice not a slot choice. the same with improved evasion.

I kinda disagree, having a Ring of Evasion would actually free up class choices instead of forcing people to take a potentially unwanted 2 level dip to get it and would make the getting the Capstone abilities less of a sacrifice.

Also Ring of Evasion can be found in the Dungeon Masters Guide, Still kinda bummed you can't get it here, and it would be great for Wizards or Artificers who take Insightful Reflexes.

The AP/ED Enhancements that give evasion then could either give Evasion, or Upgrade Evasion to Improved Evasion, which would make more sense for the High Tiers they are at in their trees.

[Qhualor]

I kinda disagree, having a Ring of Evasion would actually free up class choices instead of forcing people to take a potentially unwanted 2 level dip to get it and would make the getting the Capstone abilities less of a sacrifice.

Also Ring of Evasion can be found in the Dungeon Masters Guide, Still kinda bummed you can't get it here, and it would be great for Wizards or Artificers who take Insightful Reflexes.

The AP/ED Enhancements that give evasion then could either give Evasion, or Upgrade Evasion to Improved Evasion, which would make more sense for the High Tiers they are at in their trees.

that would be called tradeoff. if people are dipping 2 levels just for the evasion than there is something really wrong with that. it should be a choice, not a requirement.

an evasion item would be a must have item for everyone. everyone would farm the living bejeezum out of whatever quest it dropped from and considered part of every build set up. an item like that is just too powerful for this game. content is designed around character power and having something like an evasion item as part of every build would force the devs to be imaginative since everyone has the ability to evade damage.

[Thar]

Who uses light armor without Evasion? It actually seems to me like a fair assumption that in nearly if not every case where a character is speccing for light armor use, it has Evasion.

iirc it's just the (Lrg/Twr) shield's MRR contribution that is doubled vs effects causing a Reflex save, not the characters whole MRR total - am wrong there?

Bards don't get evasion (till capstone for swashbuckler now), druids don't get it, arty i forget if they get med or not.

from my understanding the total mrr is doubled which sev said can give up to 73% protection (prior to resist/absorption we assume) that's way too much if other items stack on top of that.

[oradafu]

Bards don't get evasion (till capstone for swashbuckler now), druids don't get it, arty i forget if they get med or not.

from my understanding the total mrr is doubled which sev said can give up to 73% protection (prior to resist/absorption we assume) that's way too much if other items stack on top of that.

Artis get Medium Armor and Shields, except for Tower Shield.

[Oxarhamar]

Great idea if the drop rates of ingrediants go up. people can barely make two items in 120 raids from a post i read? that's a little crazy. After 40 shrouds you usually had a wearable and weapon.

120 is a bit of an exaggeration

I've done less than 80 raids but, more than 60 and have the ingredients to craft two Tier 3 & one Tier 2 (my ETR LVL 26 weapon)

I've collected 20th on shadow dragon once & fire dragon twice then I started Iconic TRing and lost my completions.

[Pseudograph]

A ring of evasion in DDO would be both insult and injury to the rogue, monk, and ranger classes.

It would have to be something like ML 30 with other restrictions. (And cursed also - Yeah, that's the ticket - Curse of Game-Breaking!)

Pseudograph

[PermaBanned]

from my understanding the total mrr is doubled which sev said can give up to 73% protection (prior to resist/absorption we assume) that's way too much if other items stack on top of that.

That (up to) 73% mitigation comes from doubling your MRR vs Refelx save based damage sources, and only happens when wielding a Large or Tower shield. So if you're using a Lrg/Twr shield you can mitigate (up to) 73%, or if you have Evasion you can mitigate up to 100%. How's that make MRR "way too much?"

Even if you're on a build (we'll say pure Druid for example's sake) that just can't find Medium armor (which simply isn't true, there are named non-metal options besides Dragon Scale for both Heroics and Epics) you can still use a Large shield for the extra 2x MRR in place of Evasion. Pure Bard (non-Swash) have options to use Medium armor, and so do Artificers. Every class (except pure Bard/Swash) can ware Medium armor and/or use a Large shield, and there's always an option to multi-class/splash in some Evasion. MRR adds defensive options, it doesn't restrict them. In a worst case scenario, you may currently have a lightly armored non-Evasion toon right now on live. What happens? It gains a little MRR - it will still be better off post update than it currently is. Is MRR vs Evasion a perfect choice for absolutely everyone and everything? No, but it opens up a whole lot more options than we currently have.

To be perfectly honest, the only (desirable) build I can think of that's forbidden to take any real advantage of this new system is a pure Bard Swashbuckler @ level 19 or less. Yes, it's entirely possible to make all kinds of things in this game, including a pure Barbarian who only wares light armor and uses two handed weapons (so can't get much benefit from MRR) but that would be entirely due to player choice, not a mechanics or (lack of) loot availability restriction.

Really, if you want to find (or create) someone getting the shaft here you can, but the truth is that far far more will benefit. Needs of many vs needs of the few.

[Silverleafeon]

i've grinded... and grinded and now being told sorry you can't use them anymore. is that fair too?

One of the player council suggestions that I supported was to provide a turn in vendor who would trade some of your existing shield for light versions of the same shields.

Since its your turn to imput, you might want to chat up something like that if you like the idea.
Sometimes, the Devs want to hear from the PC and the forums users before committing to a change.

[Ayseifn]

Bards don't get evasion (till capstone for swashbuckler now), druids don't get it, arty i forget if they get med or not.

from my understanding the total mrr is doubled which sev said can give up to 73% protection (prior to resist/absorption we assume) that's way too much if other items stack on top of that.

That 74% is for a level 20 paladin with tower shield and in heavy armour, they're already giving up things by staying pure and using a shield and since they're a tank build I have no problem with them having the highest achievable. If you run the numbers for clerics, FvSs, wizards and sorcs they get noticeably less, 55-60% unless they splash paladin or fighter for 67% or so max.

Those numbers seem fine to me, swashbucklers trade off some defence for offence similar to monks using wind stance vs earth.

[Ayseifn]

One of the player council suggestions that I supported was to provide a turn in vendor who would trade some of your existing shield for light versions of the same shields.

Since its your turn to imput, you might want to chat up something like that if you like the idea.
Sometimes, the Devs want to hear from the PC and the forums users before committing to a change.

Prefer the idea I posted earlier of having mithril or addy type augments that'll move a shield up or down a category depending on which one you slot. There are no GS, TF or even dragonscale shields so not much in the way of customization, we're left with named or lootgen for the most part(still no MA bucklers). Since all shield types will now have their own niche the existing shields will be much more stratifying, so previously where my heavy armoured paladin could use an Epic Swashbuckler and just lose some DR and AC and receive all those nice mutations now I'll be gimping myself a lot harder. Swashbucklers and light shield users don't even have a choice, use one of the very very few shields in those categories or none at all.

An augment would mean they're still the best in their default position since you get to use the slot for something more powerful, and you can always keep some of the bad without giving any of the good. So a tower going to heavy may keep the MDB but not the PRR/MRR/AC, a heavy going to light might lose a lot of AC/DR, etc.

[XodousRoC]

Prefer the idea I posted earlier of having mithril or addy type augments that'll move a shield up or down a category depending on which one you slot. There are no GS, TF or even dragonscale shields so not much in the way of customization, we're left with named or lootgen for the most part(still no MA bucklers). Since all shield types will now have their own niche the existing shields will be much more stratifying, so previously where my heavy armoured paladin could use an Epic Swashbuckler and just lose some DR and AC and receive all those nice mutations now I'll be gimping myself a lot harder. Swashbucklers and light shield users don't even have a choice, use one of the very very few shields in those categories or none at all.

An augment would mean they're still the best in their default position since you get to use the slot for something more powerful, and you can always keep some of the bad without giving any of the good. So a tower going to heavy may keep the MDB but not the PRR/MRR/AC, a heavy going to light might lose a lot of AC/DR, etc.

^This^

Even if we have to grind out the augments on top of the shields that have been (time consumingly) ground, it introduces a mechanic to allow us to keep it. Even allowing for the same in armor, moving the armor down a category reduces prr/mrr, and moving it up would not provide never before seen benefits to the game...it simply gives more prr/mrr to an existing set of armor.

[Thar]

That (up to) 73% mitigation comes from doubling your MRR vs Refelx save based damage sources, and only happens when wielding a Large or Tower shield. So if you're using a Lrg/Twr shield you can mitigate (up to) 73%, or if you have Evasion you can mitigate up to 100%. How's that make MRR "way too much?"

73% is too much mitigation with all other sources. This will be healable with cure serious pots. is that what epic needs? no it needs to be some sort of challenge. Dont' feather it.

evasion is 100% until you miss a save which on EE is not easy button. Even EH, ie miir you can't tank that with evasion as you will sometimes miss. So light armors are giving up prr and ac to have that protection. why should heavy armor have both? some yes. not to this extent. If my cleric has 73% with aura, aborb, etc i'll be tanking dragons in firepeaks. is that good?

[Thar]

Prefer the idea I posted earlier of having mithril or addy type augments that'll move a shield up or down a category depending on which one you slot. There are no GS, TF or even dragonscale shields so not much in the way of customization, we're left with named or lootgen for the most part(still no MA bucklers). Since all shield types will now have their own niche the existing shields will be much more stratifying, so previously where my heavy armoured paladin could use an Epic Swashbuckler and just lose some DR and AC and receive all those nice mutations now I'll be gimping myself a lot harder. Swashbucklers and light shield users don't even have a choice, use one of the very very few shields in those categories or none at all.

An augment would mean they're still the best in their default position since you get to use the slot for something more powerful, and you can always keep some of the bad without giving any of the good. So a tower going to heavy may keep the MDB but not the PRR/MRR/AC, a heavy going to light might lose a lot of AC/DR, etc.

An augment probably can't be coded to change the item type. that would be like changing a weapon from scimtar to club with a slot. It's probably able to add an effect but the item design has never changed from an augment so probably not possible. An item turnin vendor or recipe is probably the only solution to change existing items to another of similar type.

[Thar]

That 74% is for a level 20 paladin with tower shield and in heavy armour, they're already giving up things by staying pure and using a shield and since they're a tank build I have no problem with them having the highest achievable. If you run the numbers for clerics, FvSs, wizards and sorcs they get noticeably less, 55-60% unless they splash paladin or fighter for 67% or so max.

Those numbers seem fine to me, swashbucklers trade off some defence for offence similar to monks using wind stance vs earth.

2000 hp blast. - 74% = 520 - 33% absorb = 348.4 - 30% absorb = 243.88 - 20% absorb = 195.1 - 50 resist (forget if this is pre or post absorb) = 145.1 pts. (half if make your reflex save).

2000 hp blast. - 67% = 660 - 33% absorb = 442.2 - 30% absorb = 309.54 - 20% absorb = 247.63 - 50 resist (forget if this is pre or post absorb) = 197.63 pts. (half if make your reflex save).

seriously, this is too little. shots that would kill every other toon today will do minimal damage that can be healed with one silver flame pot or a few cure serious. This will either escalate the damage in future so that non mrr toons will instantly explode or make it easy button. we don't need or want easy button, reasonable yes... easy button go to staples... That drove off a lot of the game population post GH. if you want easy, do casual/normal. you want a challenge do ee.

the 2x is a bad idea and needs to be scaled back. 1.5 at maximum... get rid of it (and therefore the light shield nerf) put the item and other development time into fleshing out some good pally changes for the old trees (and same for stalwert defender for fighters).

and it will give a point to sacrificing lvl's and armor for evasion vs slapping on heavy armor and being invincible.