Armor Up - Developer Diary #1

[lyrecono]

It doesn't seem that this has been brought up yet, but mayhap it would be a good idea to release a set of thunderholme shields - buckler, small, large, and tower - which have good AC values and can be crafted on just like normal thunderforged items. I imagine some tanks would *really* enjoy having the options of a DPS shield in their preferred shield weight, esp if the shield bashing chances go up at all(maybe even add a t1 that gives 20% bash chance to a shield? wouldn't really need that tho).

i agree, though the Thunderholme crafting system could use a few dps and defensive shield enhancement options.
I think for most heavy tanks in "end game" the pdk shield and the wall of wood are being used? that realy limits the choice of shields.

@Sev, can you add or have added this to the Thunderholme crafting?

[Thar]

i agree, though the Thunderholme crafting system could use a few dps and defensive shield enhancement options.
I think for most heavy tanks in "end game" the pdk shield and the wall of wood are being used? that realy limits the choice of shields.

@Sev, can you add or have added this to the Thunderholme crafting?

This is what worries me. We can't get good shield options now except maybe once a year. now multiple the need by 4 different types (no one cared about bucker before bard..., and light shields are barely used).

another is that basic game rules are getting changed since the beginining (heavy shields and evasion). I'm not against changing the game but don't make something NOT work after years of development. And then don't give any reason why this is even necessary. When the heavy armor was changed to not work with evasion that made sense as that was PNP rules and they wanted light armor to only have that benefit to make up for the lack of AC (when AC mattered). Now it is because... we want to put in light shields in the game...

if the plan for the new shields is only the 5 orchard shields available in any size combination... no that is not acceptible. Like when runearms were mandatory for artificers, all chains had a runearm added along with other named ones added from low to end game content. This should have occured with bucklers but didn't. That does not lead me to have any confidence that the evasion change is only another negative to having evasion (and not improved evasion since those classes don't use sheilds). It's a huge nerf to tanky type pally/fighter/druids that use evasion to maximize their spell damage protection and giving up ac, prr and capstones. They are alreay making evasion less desireable with the heavy armor change, why cause actual changes to it to make it worse... No reasons communicated as there probably aren't any... don't change for the sake of change. use that development time to fix bugs. if you need a list of bugs to work on, we would be happy to help provide a list since the in game option still doesn't work for bugs or now even the help feature..

[Zurrander]

Sev- it would help if you could explain the reasoning behind the evasion nerf. As well as what the loss of Heavy shields accomplishes that the PRR/MRR cape on light armor doesn't.

[Thar]

Would having evasion, and a large shield be the same as having improved evasion? By not allowing evasion plus a large shield they maybe protecting improved evasion as a valid choice, which requires a deep investment in certain classes or a T5 ranger enhancement.

improved evasion would be save = no damage failed save = half damage - mrr protection
sheild evasion would be save = no damage failed save = full damage - 2*mrr protection.

improved evasion would still be better imo, but heavy shield evasion makes some ground. mrr wouldnt be that high with light armor so it wouldn't be that much of a reduction to make it as good as improved, but i see your point. Is that a bad thing with heavy armor getting up to 73% damage reduction for mrr? gets the non monks out of robes at least. These builds are tanking pally/fighter/druids so giving up dps why not give them a bump in protection? The pally dps will still be subpar if the pally changes continue as listed and druid/fighter in stalwart aren't far behind.

Edit: upon rethinking this, they are making no evasion closer to evasion with the mrr additional protection, why not make evasion closer to improved evasion. seems fair. otherwise evasion seems to get squeezed out that either armor or improved is better.

As a side note: i'm totally against 2x being the heavy/tower shield modifier. 1.5 x is more than enough to make it helpful but not overpowered.

[Thar]

It doesn't seem that this has been brought up yet, but mayhap it would be a good idea to release a set of thunderholme shields - buckler, small, large, and tower - which have good AC values and can be crafted on just like normal thunderforged items. I imagine some tanks would *really* enjoy having the options of a DPS shield in their preferred shield weight, esp if the shield bashing chances go up at all(maybe even add a t1 that gives 20% bash chance to a shield? wouldn't really need that tho).

Great idea if the drop rates of ingrediants go up. people can barely make two items in 120 raids from a post i read? that's a little crazy. After 40 shrouds you usually had a wearable and weapon.

[HastyPudding]

While I see why robes/outfits don't have PRR/MRR (way too easy to be abused via monk splashes), I kind of want to see caster-specific robes with mrr on them. Maybe it's just the nerd in me thinking, but why can't a wizard or sorcerer defend against magic and take less damage from it? By all rights, a master of the arcane should have built up a tolerance for it. From all these changes, it's the casters that are getting nerfed the most, not the monk splashers.

- Maybe add MRR bonuses to robes that no monk splash would wear (like the diabolist robe and the war wizard robes, to name a couple).

- Add small amounts of MRR to certain caster specific feats, like the mental toughness line or spell focus feats?

- Perhaps finally adding the spell mantle spells for arcanes, but instead of blocking certain spells they add MRR based on caster level.

Just throwing some ideas around. Casters should have weak constitutions and defense against physical attacks, but magic is an entirely different subject, and casters should know how to protect themselves from it.

[Zurrander]

If the Evasion-Heavy Shield Nerf cannot be stopped then can we at least get some assurance that Decent Small Shields will be added in the next update (from levels 10-28). Maybe we could be shown some of these new small shields, or told by a Dev that some of the current Large shields will be getting a Smaller Equivalent (I.E. wall of wood/shield of morning ect...)

[Severlin]

Sev- it would help if you could explain the reasoning behind the evasion nerf. As well as what the loss of Heavy shields accomplishes that the PRR/MRR cape on light armor doesn't.

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Sev~

[Zurrander]

Shield of Morning it is!!!!!! not a grade A shield or anything, but its better than zip (Weathering Targe is Ok, but it doesn't compare to wall of wood)

[B0ltdrag0n]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

Sev~

Fighters get Towershield proficiency. Paladins do not. By far the best paladin themed sheild is in Haunted Halls...and is a tower shield.

[btolson]

Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Sev~

To Paladin tanks looking to save a feat? Fighter level 1 grants tower shield proficiency automatically, so they will apparently never need to use heavies.

[losian2]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Sev~

These changes have been long time coming.. Evasion has, for far too long, been way too accessible for how unbelievably amazing and game-changing it is. Those who milked evasion for their builds should have seen itcoming - D&D, much less DDO, was obviously never intended for every single person to run around in pajamas and splash random classes into nonsense builds just for that one single thing..

[bbqzor]

With the next update the game has a reason, even if it is a niche build, for every shield type to be useful.

Bucklers are useful to Swashbuckler bards.
Small Shields are useful to Evasion tanks.
Heavy shields are useful to tanks looking to save a feat.
Tower shields are useful to heavy tanks.

For the next update we have changed all the incarnations of Shield of Morning to small shields and boosted their stats. Between the other named small shields we've looked at and the changes to Shield of Morning evasion based tanks that want to use shields will have a named shield every few levels from 6th up to end game. Since existing Shield of Morning items will be changed in place, players can even go get them now to prepare for the update. We also looked at a boost to Weathering Targe but it isn't actually that bad and we might not be able to squeeze it in.

We have endeavored to add good end game small shields to the new Orchard content.

Wait what.... seriously?

Are you fixing shield of morning to have an enhancement bonus which scales past +3? Because right now on live, theyre all +3, even EE. (for reference, on lama, they scaled to +9, but that never went live and never got fixed after going live broken).

Also, are you seriously suggesting that shield of morning is just as useful as say, dethek runeshield? Or wall of wood? Because thats what people forced to move to small are likely to be coming from. And man... no contest, they got owned.

Can you guarantee that the orchard shields will be more comparable, and easy enough to obtain that there is not a huge amount of grind involved for people to adapt to this change? Right now, you kind of just boned them all.

And also, will the Vanguard tree have a way for paladins to get tower shield proficiency without sinking a feat? Because, what the poster above said about PDK shield... yea true that. Or is this shield change going to equate to a feat tax on paladin tanks.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Fighters get Towershield proficiency. Paladins do not. By far the best paladin themed sheild is in Haunted Halls...and is a tower shield.

It's also named for the iconic class that starts off as a fighter lvl 1

[Severlin]

Wait what.... seriously?

Are you fixing shield of morning to have an enhancement bonus which scales past +3? Because right now on live, theyre all +3, even EE. (for reference, on lama, they scaled to +9, but that never went live and never got fixed after going live broken).

Also, are you seriously suggesting that shield of morning is just as useful as say, dethek runeshield? Or wall of wood? Because thats what people forced to move to small are likely to be coming from. And man... no contest, they got owned.

Can you guarantee that the orchard shields will be more comparable, and easy enough to obtain that there is not a huge amount of grind involved for people to adapt to this change? Right now, you kind of just boned them all.

And also, will the Vanguard tree have a way for paladins to get tower shield proficiency without sinking a feat? Because, what the poster above said about PDK shield... yea true that. Or is this shield change going to equate to a feat tax on paladin tanks.

The various incarnations of Shield of Morning have been increased in stats as part of the changes. (I am traveling at the moment and don't have access to the precise changes.)

Sev~

[CaptainSpacePony]

Can a heavily armored fighter without destiny survive Subterrance explorer with this change?

Can a heavily armored fighter without destiny survive Elite Enter the Kobold without healing with this change?

Can a heavily armored fighter without destiny survive Elite A New Invasion without healing with this change?

Mind you, most caster/range type can. I'll only comment once this 3 minimum benchmarks are passed.

I find these unclear. Do you mean solo or in a full party? If the later--ofc the ftr can meet all 3 easily. If you mean solo, then I find your benchmark unreasonable unless you're saying that if it meets these benchmarks then this is OP.

The sub is raid area intended to be faced by a LOT of toons at a time. Elite ETK and New Invasion are meant to be challenging content. Just because one type of character has an easier time of it, doesn't mean they all should. Just like some quests are easier with a trapper, while in other quests, thieves tools are dead weight.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Shield of Morning it is!!!!!! not a grade A shield or anything, but its better than zip (Weathering Targe is Ok, but it doesn't compare to wall of wood)

but wall of wood wouldn't be a wall of wood if it wasn't at least a large shield.

[Takllin]

Why is it that people feel the need to have things handed to them on a silver platter?? Seriously...do you just want everyone to have all the best items in the game with no work done to actually loot or create them? Please do not make the uber/best Orchard loot easy to get...leave something for us to grind for...

As for Paladins having to spend a feat to get Tower Shields...booo whooooo. We just got three free feats by the removal of Great Cleave from OC, and two new cleave attacks added into KotC. Yes it is three, no reason to take power attack as it is minimal boost on it's own as SnB. Stop trying to make Paladins the same as Fighters...

[bbqzor]

The various incarnations of Shield of Morning have been increased in stats as part of the changes. (I am traveling at the moment and don't have access to the precise changes.)

Okay, good to hear in part. Will hold further feedback until we can see the actual item changes on Lama. I understand this is a "band aid" style fix, and depending on the actual adjustments it could well be completely fine.

It does kind of push players into having one of the paid (even for vip) packs, which is somewhat unfortunate. Not in that it encourages people to contribute to paying turbine, only that it forces one build to rather heavily rely on a purchase-only option. I just dont like to see anyone who wants to make a fairly broad reaching build (evasion tank, its been around since 2006 in one flavor or another) be told "well, do to that, you have to buy this, no other real choices". Hopefully the orchard shields will also do well at filling this niche, and maybe some of the old ones can get brought up to date as well (theyre not that out of line, but they could use some "modernization" for sure).

Thanks for the clarification, without a stat boost that would have been a terrible band aid.

[oradafu]

As for Paladins having to spend a feat to get Tower Shields...booo whooooo. We just got three free feats by the removal of Great Cleave from OC, and two new cleave attacks added into KotC. Yes it is three, no reason to take power attack as it is minimal boost on it's own as SnB. Stop trying to make Paladins the same as Fighters...

Although Paladins "got" 3 free feats, how many free feats do Fighters get again? Yet they get a free Tower Shield feat?

Also, I've asked a few times and I have never received an answer about the Paladin's new cleaves (one of which is a Tier 5 ability so it locks out the other trees) working with Momentum Swing and Lay Waste and Legendary Dreadnaught still needing Power Attack to work. If nothing changed in that ED, then Paladins still need to pick up those three feats for that ED or else it becomes another unfun ED, like Grandmaster is for Armor wearers.