Warmage Project {Sorcerer tree}

[thesnoman]

OK - the more and more that I look at this thread, do the math, and figure the different permutations of this as a 20 Sorcerer, the more I realize that this simply will NOT work as a Sorcerer Tree - taking this tree and dipping into any Savant will simply make this far too powerful. The ONLY way to make this work is to lock out ALL savant trees when the first core enhancement is taken.

On the other hand, lets look at making this a class. I don't think Silverleafeon's translation into a class quite works - too much similarity with Sorcerer. I will work on translating this to a Class (with multiple trees) over the weekend

[autochthon]

OK - the more and more that I look at this thread, do the math, and figure the different permutations of this as a 20 Sorcerer, the more I realize that this simply will NOT work as a Sorcerer Tree - taking this tree and dipping into any Savant will simply make this far too powerful. The ONLY way to make this work is to lock out ALL savant trees when the first core enhancement is taken.

On the other hand, lets look at making this a class. I don't think Silverleafeon's translation into a class quite works - too much similarity with Sorcerer. I will work on translating this to a Class (with multiple trees) over the weekend

I am of the opinion that it looking too powerful has more to do with the fact that focused builds kinda suck, and that generally speaking other trees aren't powerful enough. I would however like to know what about the tree makes you feel that it is too powerful for savants.

[Silverleafeon]

I did not note, but since the fire, acid, cold, and electric slas are copy and paste from the Savant trees, they would share cooldowns if they had the same name.

So, all you could gain from say a fire savant tree is ??
Well look at it.

More power to fire, less to cold.
More universal spellpower from points spent.
Two fire SLAs that share cooldowns with the same element.
A choice of tier 5 fire savant or tier 5 warmage.
You could take the fireball from tier 5 warmage, but that is the only noncooldownsharing fire sla you would get,
and you would get that anyway with tier 5 savant.


Now we could add to the Core 1 this:
"Choosing an Acid SLA from this tree locks you out of the Acid Savant tree;
Choosing a Cold SLA from this tree locks you out of the Cold Savant tree;
Choosing an Electric SLA from this tree locks you out of the Electric Savant tree;
Choosing a Fire SLA from this tree locks you out of the Fire Savant tree."

If you did this, it deprives players of the fireball spell as an SLA if they chose fire,
and makes their cold spells not as good either. They could still chose acid and
electric to go with their lesser fire SLAs.

Still that is not too bad considering they have all these other choices...

If they choose tier 5 as a Savant they would get their fireball, but lose the warmage edge.

It should be noted that one cannot take the maximized feat and apply it twice to any slas.
So essentially the free feats for metamagics are more feat to spend upon Spell Focus,
Mental Toughness, and Spell Penatration making the Warmage a potential indirect
DC bonus tree.

[Silverleafeon]

I will work on translating this to a Class (with multiple trees) over the weekend

I would love to see this and will make a spot to feature it on the first few posts of this thread.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

[Silverleafeon]

I would however like to know what about the tree makes you feel that it is too powerful for savants.

Nods, please explain.


However, locking out from the SAvant trees could be considered.

[Silverleafeon]

I had time to think it over, and I came up with back story (roleplaying) for the Warmages.


In the beginning there were Sorcerers.

Then eventually two ancient schools of thought developed.

Those who viewed Sorcery as an art and an expression of elemental power,
and those who viewed Sorcery as a tool for war.

Those who viewed Sorcery as an art gather centers of knowledge near their elemental climates.

Those who viewed Sorcery as a tool where employed as mercenaries for the Houses.

In time these two schools began facing each other in duals of magic as politics and wars pushed
them out of the towers of knowledge unto the battlefields.

The feud grew and in time, the Savants distanced themselves from the Warmage not allowing them
to study at their centers of knowledge anymore...




Core One Anitrequisite changing from Eldritch Knight to Savant.

The more I look at it, the more Savant and Warmage are totally different philosophies.
Taking Savant Cores totally messes up the philosophy of the current Warmage tree.

I do want to go back and fill in the tier 4 so we have plenty of places to spend ap.

Looking over the Eldritch Knight tree, I find their philosophies would be compatible;
and that would allow a player to mix and match sword and sorcerer if they wanted.


I know that is a decrease in power for the Warmage, but we are sitting on the high side
of power atm anyway...

[Silverleafeon]

Round 10 is up (in post #4 as #3 is now full), and there are 60 points available to spend in the tree.
Doing so, would grant a tremendous amount of SLA (I added another one in tier 4).

So if you went Savant your favorite two elements of spell power would be higher,
but Warmage offers flexibility and lower sp costs.

Allowing the Eldritch Knight tree, gives a place to gain more spell power from action points spent,
or one could go to one's racial tree as well.

[autochthon]

That leaves the original issue of Warmage armor masteries being objectively superior to EK armor masteries.

[Silverleafeon]

That leaves the original issue of Warmage armor masteries being objectively superior to EK armor masteries.

True, maybe we need a action point dump slot, where we could dump our remaining 20 ap, then lock out the other trees?


Also, I need to do the math on the tree compared to Savant.

Assuming at level cap 30, a player could get a 70 charima?

60 points into warmage tree = 30 USP
Warmage Edge =70 USP
Total = 100 USP


Water Savant with Electric
80 points into two Savant trees = 60 USP
6 cold cores = +60 cold spell power -60 fire spell power
5 electric cores = +50 electric spell power
+6 caster level cold +6 max caster level cold
+8% cold crit chance
Hoarfrost: Whenever you cast a Cold damage spell, you gain +5 to your Cold Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 1/3/5 times.

Total possible cold = 120 and a stack of 25
Total possible electric 110 and a stack of 25



But what if a player could acquire 80+ charisma.
Then Warmage Edge starts to get as good as Savant Cores, and we don't want that.
I'm afraid we will probably have to drop Warmage Edge back to Charisma Bonus instead of Charisma Score.
But we should change the tree so we can spend 80 points into it then lock out the EK tree too.

[autochthon]

The other option is to jut not provide armor masteries. SLAs aren't subject to ASF, and in theory most of the spells you cast offensively will be SLAs. It remains in keeping with the limiting of armor casting to class spells in PnP

[Silverleafeon]

The other option is to jut not provide armor masteries. SLAs aren't subject to ASF, and in theory most of the spells you cast offensively will be SLAs. It remains in keeping with the limiting of armor casting to class spells in PnP

So simply copy and paste the EK versions right into warmage, therefore they are equal?

Or we could just totally eliminate them?


I like the eliminating version, because then points spent in EK are worthwhile, and no need to increase total cost of Warmage tree.

[Silverleafeon]

Round 11 is up.
The tree has a total cost of 73 ap.

Changes:
Removed hit point bonuses, and armor shield options since all of those are in the EK tree.
Added more SLAs, reorganized SLAs
Finished moving the Combat ready line down; its starts at tier 2 thru 4 now.
Changed Warmage Edge back to Cha Modifier instead of Cha Score.
Fixed an AP cost error.

Left:
Savant and Warmage are still locked out from each other.
EK tree is now the place to get your warmage armor and hit points.


Overall this tree is the heaviest SLA tree in the game, but players have always been fond of SLAs.
The spell power should be less than Savant trees, providing a distinction between the two.
Those seeking Crowd Control logically could seek either tree, but may steer towards Warmage.

[autochthon]

So simply copy and paste the EK versions right into warmage, therefore they are equal?

Or we could just totally eliminate them?


I like the eliminating version, because then points spent in EK are worthwhile, and no need to increase total cost of Warmage tree.

Does present the interesting side effect of making warmage "melee" or "warmage only". Not a bad thing, plus the SLA overload is super fun.

[jakeelala]

this just looks like a OP Archmage. Nothing about this says Warmage.

[Silverleafeon]

this just looks like a OP Archmage. Nothing about this says Warmage.

I did a bit of googling the other day, looking for a new name for theme for this prestige class.

Again I find the wall of double evocation trees a bit limiting.

If the tree is overpowered, we could insert into every core:

"All your spell DCs are reduced by one, except conjuration and evocation."
{This would more than justify the bonuses.}


Leaving us with new player trap and the discomfort of another Socerer tree with penalties/bonuses in it.


I could be wrong, but I feel like players might like a generalized Socerer tree or a DC sorcerer tree.
Perhaps a duplicate of Archmage or the like, but Sorcerer like.



On another note, while a new Sorcerer tree seem no closer than before, a Dev has read thru this thread and lifted two brainstorming ideas therein for a possible project of their own. Hence, while being vague, I will say our time here has not been in vain...

[Silverleafeon]

Round 12 is up.

Changes:

Removed conjuration spells from SLA lists.
Tier 5 is now only +1 Evocation DC, as the conjuration option has been removed.
{This is a shift toward evocation only.}

Each core warmage grants a reduce in total arcane spell failure by four percent.
{This is to represent armor ability (which can be gotten thru feats or the EK tree.}

Each core warmage grants a -1 DC penalty to all non evocation spells you cast.
{This is to represent the warmage's very limited spell selection. Instead of prohibiting spells, a warmage is simply far less good at casting them. Hopefully simpler coding than a whole new class.}




I am reluctant do this as I really liked round 11, and I will present both versions, as well as the alternates other players have posted.


In order to compensate for the limitations of this tree, I would like to work on a general tree as well, perhaps even one that could be inserted as an extra tree into clerics, favored souls, wizards, druids, and sorcerers. As an extra tree.

[autochthon]

I would like to point out that the round 11 tree is focused entirely around SLAs and doesn't play nice with metamagic for actual spells (of course I'm of the opinion that next caster pass should cause SLAs to put their duplicate spell version on cooldown for the SLA duration, for balance). Meaning while it shares / shared similarities with archmage it plays very differently (you don't want to actually cast real spells since they have full metamagic costs). OP would be taking it a bit far as a description because the tree itself absolutely hates hardcasting non-evocation spells.

That being said I came up with a solution for the tree to play nice with Savants.

L1 Core
Change Passive Spellpower to: Gain +1 Spellpower when casting your Warmage SLAs for each point spent in this tree.

This further reinforces the theme as a pure SLA caster, making them masters of their small spellpool (like the book) while allowing them to play nice with savants. Doing so could switch them to the original proposal of making them a "foil" to EK (antirequisite with different armor mastery, or remain as in the 11 without a savant antirequisite) and allowing them the option of specializing in an element if they so wish (which was possible in PnP) or remaining a full generalist by focusing entirely on Warmage.

[Silverleafeon]

Great thoughts there, will ponder, anyone else have an opinion on the meandering path of this thread?

[Silverleafeon]

Ok, round 13 is up.

The cores have been totally changed in several ways.

Each core except for core one receives as SLA that is a spell not normally available to Sorcerers.
{This represents the Warmages unique spell list.}

Cores 12, 18, and 20 receive Echew, Enlarge, and Quickened applied to all your spells for free.
{This represents the Sudden metamagic ability.}

The idea here is that a typical Warmage will pick up Heightened, Empower, and Max as regular feats, and this promotes often neglected metamagics. {All round 12 did was free out feats, and since Warmage has huge penalties with other schools there is not a whole lot to spend on feats besides mental toughness and armor feats.} Hence the the most powerful ones have been removed.



Remaining the same:
The huge penalty for non evocation spells remains.
{This represents the Warmage's restrictive spell list in the form of poor preformace instead of total lockout.}

The reduction to overall arcane spell failure remains.
{This represents the Warmage's armor bonuses in the form of reduced ASF to blend with the EK tree.}

The antirequisite of Savant was not removed but might be. It was noted that SLAs with same name taken from Savant and Warmage should share the same cooldown.

The half point USP for each point spent remains at the moment but might need to be pondered..
{Total possible USP to be gained from the tree would be 36.5 compared with a Savant gaining 60 from two Savant trees.

However, Warmage edge add CHA modifier to USP, and a Savant tree adds up to 60 elemental power.
Assuming the Warmage has a 70 CHA, their total USP would be 66.5 compared to the Savant's 60.

This leaves Savant leading with 60 elemental power more. That is a significant power advantage for a Savant. However, they do receive -60 to an opposite element and the Warmage can apply empower and maximize for free to their many metamagics, so in the end, perhaps it should be left alone.}

[Silverleafeon]

Salt ray can stun on failed fort save, so likely to change that to splinterbolt or the like, as a stunning sla for low level core is too good.