Warmage Project {Sorcerer tree}

[autochthon]

The later bonus spells seem a little low level, of course that might just be me feeling that 6th level spells are a bit less effective than 8th or 9th. You won't be able to "naturally" wear medium with the way the ASF bonuses are spread (15% won't negate common scale). Whether that's intentional or not is something you know rather than me. I'd imagine the intention is to get the WM into wearing the armor without needing ASF bonuses, since that's how PnP works.

Some of your wording is awkward, but that's nothing that you really have to worry about for a pitch I would imagine. Core 1 definitely should have Antirequisite: Eldritch Strike, if only because this tree is basically EK for a caster rather than fighter.

Might I suggest Eschew being made free (somewhere)? Flavorful with minimal cost impacts.

[Silverleafeon]

The later bonus spells seem a little low level, of course that might just be me feeling that 6th level spells are a bit less effective than 8th or 9th.

Thank you, fixed.
Doubled up some of the higher tiers to get one of each level in.

You won't be able to "naturally" wear medium with the way the ASF bonuses are spread (15% won't negate common scale). Whether that's intentional or not is something you know rather than me. I'd imagine the intention is to get the WM into wearing the armor without needing ASF bonuses, since that's how PnP works.

Copy and paste from EK tree, and I agree, so I changed it to immune from ASF on the appropriate item.
Fixed thank you.

Some of your wording is awkward, but that's nothing that you really have to worry about for a pitch I would imagine.

Thank you, I'll try to smooth it up as we go along.

Core 1 definitely should have Antirequisite: Eldritch Strike, if only because this tree is basically EK for a caster rather than fighter.

Hmm...I don't really intend for them to swing a weapon...

Might I suggest Eschew being made free (somewhere)? Flavorful with minimal cost impacts.

Great idea and done.

[autochthon]

Hmm...I don't really intend for them to swing a weapon...

That's the point, given the placement of a number of the effects in this new tree WM will be strictly superior over EK in terms of wearing light/medium armor, however it will be less effective at melee. Now imagine you can choose both trees and get best of both worlds. Cores 1-4 mean bonus spells to go with your buffing spells, access to powerful emtamagic bonuses, and you'll be able to get the ASF you need more effectively. While benefitting fully from EKs superior melee. You won;t be giving anything up to do it either.

Further exacerbated if a tree similar to my proposal gets pushed through, where the raw power of evocation access is normally controlled by limiting to missiles or requiring you to get fewer CC/buff spells. Then you spec into the universal power tree and you're looking at more points in the EK offenses and easier access to armor and better spell throughput. With the vanilla EK tree it's not really a huge issue (other than strict superiority) but if the tee gets buffed...

Hence recommending an antirequisite to make sure WM is treated as what it is (Evoker Battle Archmage).

Glad you liked my other suggestions.

[Silverleafeon]

antirequisite is opposite to prerequisite.

Light dawns...yes I agree will change now.

Added to core 1

Selecting this enhancement will prevent you from spending points in the Eldritch Knight enhancement tree.

[autochthon]

antirequisite is opposite to prerequisite.

Light dawns...yes I agree will change now.

Added to core 1

Selecting this enhancement will prevent you from spending points in the Eldritch Knight enhancement tree.

:P

I was wondering what I was failing to get across lol

Edit: You have "Universal Spell Critical: Evocation" but the effect is not limioted to evocation (Necromancy would be the big offender here in terms of potential critting spells that aren't right flavor)

Edit2: "Skills of the Battlefield" should no longer grant ASF reduction (you have no ASF in requisite armors, and no intention of heavier armors fitting the vision)

[Silverleafeon]

:P

I was wondering what I was failing to get across lol

I learned a new word, woot!

Edit: You have "Universal Spell Critical: Evocation" but the effect is not limioted to evocation (Necromancy would be the big offender here in terms of potential critting spells that aren't right flavor)

Thank you.
Removed the evocation off the title.

The idea, right or wrong, is that the Savant tree already provide evocation bonuses,
hence the Warmage tree could provide universal bonuses that are a lower amount.
If we limited spell type, then I would want to increase back to 2%.

There was some concern about doubling up the evocation spell critical,
although I run a Cleric 15/Favored Soul 5 that doubled up her light spells.
But light spells are not as powerful as many of the Sorcerer spells.

Yes, we step a bit away from blast spells only there.
Shall I make the tier 5 +1 evocation DC instead of unvisersal?

Perhaps Warmages should instant kill sometimes?

Edit2: "Skills of the Battlefield" should no longer grant ASF reduction (you have no ASF in requisite armors, and no intention of heavier armors fitting the vision)

Thank, you, replaced with tier 3 you gain 30 sp.

[Silverleafeon]

Ok, Warmage round 4 is up.

Frankly the tree seemed to be missing the feeling of Warmage style.

So, I brought in lots of SLAs, redid the crit back into 1% evocation only, shuffled the bonus metamagics a bit.

The metamagic reduction costs were eliminated, and replaced with the core and tier 5 metamagics bonus feats offering reduced sp prices.

Warforged armor feat considerations were added.

There is also a % chance to gain temp sp gained on spell cast.

I realize the apply for 5 sp empower metamagic (+75 unvisersal spell power) will raise a few eyebrows, until one compares Fire Savant getting +60 fire spell power for free?

I tried to tone down the power, comparing to Savant but striving for more versatility than Savant.
The bonus metamagics will be welcome as Sorcerers are feat starved and I promoted the less chosen ones.

[autochthon]

Your second tier SLAs have Magic Missile (magic missile is the only option in first tier). Your naming of T3 and T4 are mixed up. I don't think WF armor feats are really necessary (they have ASF in their tree, and well... WF)

I honestly think free feats should be a Sorc prestige thematic element :P

[Trillea]

Ok, Warmage round 4 is up.

Frankly the tree seemed to be missing the feeling of Warmage style.

So, I brought in lots of SLAs, redid the crit back into 1% evocation only, shuffled the bonus metamagics a bit.

The metamagic reduction costs were eliminated, and replaced with the core and tier 5 metamagics bonus feats offering reduced sp prices.

Warforged armor feat considerations were added.

There is also a % chance to gain temp sp gained on spell cast.

I realize the apply for 5 sp empower metamagic (+75 unvisersal spell power) will raise a few eyebrows, until one compares Fire Savant getting +60 fire spell power for free?

I tried to tone down the power, comparing to Savant but striving for more versatility than Savant.
The bonus metamagics will be welcome as Sorcerers are feat starved and I promoted the less chosen ones.

I like a LOT of what you have done here, my main concern is that the % chance for temp SP when combined with the FvS line on fire/force may make it change from "almost infinite SP" to "infinite sp" especially since all your SLAs are force.

[autochthon]

I think the level20 core doesn't feel compelling enough in terms of returns (A feat and two spells). There are certainly L20 cores on other classes that feel boring (looking at you assassin), but I think that's an issue with them too. Can we think of spomething really iconic that Warmage has in PnP other than the sudden metamagic (which really is jus ta way to say "you're a wizard that casts spontaneously" in the PnP rules)

[Silverleafeon]

Your second tier SLAs have Magic Missile (magic missile is the only option in first tier). Your naming of T3 and T4 are mixed up. I don't think WF armor feats are really necessary (they have ASF in their tree, and well... WF)

I honestly think free feats should be a Sorc prestige thematic element :P

Opsay, yes, some copy and paste errors I am sure, cleanup will be done.
Thank you.

I did not want to leave the warforged out, but they do have a huge advantage as a sorcerer anyway.
I will look their racial tree over.
Thank you.

Ok, so you like the free metamagic ?
I think sorcerers really could use some bonus metamagics.
Perhaps we can expand that direction of free metamagic feats more.
The adjusted sp cost is probably too powerful, and might need to be brought into line with typical amounts.

I like a LOT of what you have done here, my main concern is that the % chance for temp SP when combined with the FvS line on fire/force may make it change from "almost infinite SP" to "infinite sp" especially since all your SLAs are force.

Yes, that is highly sought after.
The feature is a copy and paste upgrade from Fire Savant casting fire spells.
Probably too much power there.

I think the level20 core doesn't feel compelling enough in terms of returns (A feat and two spells). There are certainly L20 cores on other classes that feel boring (looking at you assassin), but I think that's an issue with them too. Can we think of spomething really iconic that Warmage has in PnP other than the sudden metamagic (which really is jus ta way to say "you're a wizard that casts spontaneously" in the PnP rules)

I agree, my capstone is frankly boring, I puzzled over it quite awhile without that light bulb moment of something good.
We can keep trying there.


Thanks for reading giving feedback everyone, it is greatly appreciated!!!!

[autochthon]

Free (and near-free) metamagic and free feat access is something that Sorc really benefits from. I think it would be interesting to see stuff like

"Your spell like abilities gain the effect of Maximize"
"Your spell like abilities gain the effect of Extend"
"Your spell like abilities gain the effect of Quicken"
etc

Imagine if your Warmage spells were all SLA's, and your SLA's were getting beefed up hardcore. With reduced cost to metamagics elsewhere (though slighlt less reduction than you've put in maybe in some cases). Keep the tree specialized in Evocation and a little bit of conjuration as core focus.

So...

Warmage Spell Mastery I
Your spell like abilities gain the benefits of extend spell.
Reduce the additional cost of extend spell for your evocation and conjuration spells by X.

You've got 5 tiers to work with. I'd treat the SLA's and cost reductions as your source of SP sustain (And well... Sorcerer), because that copypasta might get a little abusable :P

This is just brainstorming of course, refining the core concept of the tree. I really don't have any idea what the L20 Core should be though. It should be something rewarding non-multiclass of course, enough to make going single class attractive. But thematically and mechanically speaking...

[Silverleafeon]

I like that.

I am starting to envision the Warmage as one who wades into battle with some armor, saves sp by having lots of SLAs, has bonus metamagics that only benefit his SLAs, removing any crit multiplies to prevent overpowered, keeping focus on evocation and conjuration, looking over other non arcane spell lists for possible choices, etc...

I am picturing a true warmage as being battlefield worthy and able to keep continual sustained artillery on the foes....

[autochthon]

I like that.

I am starting to envision the Warmage as one who wades into battle with some armor, saves sp by having lots of SLAs, has bonus metamagics that only benefit his SLAs, removing any crit multiplies to prevent overpowered, keeping focus on evocation and conjuration, looking over other non arcane spell lists for possible choices, etc...

I am picturing a true warmage as being battlefield worthy and able to keep continual sustained artillery on the foes....

I've been rather intrigued by the concept of "Warmage Spellslots" as SLA slots you change when you rest.

So...

Warmage Metamagic Mastery I-V
SLA metamagic

and

Warmage Spell Mastery (Core 20?)
Whenever you rest you may choose one Evocation spell of each spell level you may cast. You cast these spells as spell-like abilites until your next rest.

(No broken CDs and no broken costs here)

[Nayus]

Tell me something:

What Nuking Sorcerer in this world will NOT take this tree? This is just a savant that isn't bound to a single element.

[autochthon]

Tell me something:

What Nuking Sorcerer in this world will NOT take this tree? This is just a savant that isn't bound to a single element.

Would need personal spellpower reduced a bit to compensate I suppose. I heard about some upcoming changes to Empower/Maximize to make them less overall spellpower. Tho that's vague recollection.

Ideally going full warmage should be about closer-range spells and flexibility (also lots of spamming). Going Savant should be about monstrous elemental focus. The problem is balancing.

Edit: First step is .5 Spellpower per point in tree and +.25 on close range spells per point in tree.

[Silverleafeon]

Round 5 is up.

Removed all critical bonuses, increased amount of SLAs greatly.
Assigned bonus spells, including a controversial ones at 18 and 20.
Granted metamagics for SLAs only.
Left Warmage edge as a universal spellpower bonus from Charima modifier inside tier 5.

[Silverleafeon]

Tell me something:

What Nuking Sorcerer in this world will NOT take this tree? This is just a savant that isn't bound to a single element.

An excellent question.

You are losing the +8 critical chance, +60 element power, +6 caster level, +6 max caster level, capstones, etc..

However you gain +1 universal spell power instead of .75 universal spell power for point spent in tree.

Say you spent 40 points in the tree. You have gained 10 universal spell power from that.
Then you gain 30 to 40 from Warmage edge.
Then with your SLAs you gain big.

So yes we might have to tone down the core 1 ability to .75 or lower.

Edit, dropped the core 1 down to 0.5 universal spell power per point spent.

[hale99]

Ok Fawn, my friend, I wanted to see how this progressed before I would give you my promised Weigh in. So with out further ado.

Being a 3.5 PnP player I have played and seen several people in my gaming group play a Warmage. It s really interesting "Class" Now I would love to see it brought in as its own class, but not as a Prestige. Warmages have a lot of differences and things that make them so they will not fit well with sorcerers.

The thing about Warmages that make them so awesome in my opinion is how they can choose to just have a auto nuke, plus their edge is amazing However when it comes to mixing them with DDO I see several issues....

First - They have no synergy with Sorcerers, sorcerers are elementalists, Warmages are just plain "Hey! Ima nuke you all!" Their spells have some elemental aspects but by far they were not meant to be mixed. Spell selections are different too, so that would have to be taken into account. Mixing them isn't doing Warmage justice.

Second - This is my second big thing, the edge wouldn't really matter at all in DDO. Lets look at it number wise, I mean adding a extra 20 - 30 points( could be higher or lower just a little range) on in DDO isn't going to be all that much, especially in EE's, eH's even. Plus its based off Int.... having a it in a Tree or prestige only for Charisma based casters doesn't really make sense to me.

I do however want to give you credit on this, the work you put into it is amazing and the thought. Its more than most would do, but to me i don't see this being viable. You will have to get ahold of me in game and we can discuss more I would like to see other caster types added in eventually, just hoping DDO doesn't totally screw them up hehe.

[Silverleafeon]

Yes, either I offer Warmage as Sorcerer Evocator less powerful than Savant and therefore waste the dev's time.
Or I offer Warmage as a Sorcerer Evocator more powerful than Savant and therefore ruin the existing prestige class.

There should be another Sorcerer tree someday, but it should be distinctly different from Savant.
I might fold these ideas into another tree idea.


So, going to think about this awhile, but will go back to my Warlock project as a possible someday future class for DDO,
which is where the discussion about Warmage started from.

I have been unsure about where to place the new class in the forums, and might want to work a round more on it.
But I will bring it out.


All the feedback is appreciated, and will be reported in the PC forums when I am finished here, I promise.
Thank You.

Any amount of time we save the Devs is helpful, and this might confirm why the long ago public suggestions for more Sorcerer Trees were very different sounding than another evoker tree?